Olice-pay Ate-stay: What to do if you feel you live in one?

Robear wrote:

Really? When have people been taken in for questioning based on their participation in a forum, rather than as part of a pre-existing investigation?

You mean the same FBI that did extensive secret surveillance of MLK, anti-war groups, Muslims, and more? What pre-existing investigations were those people part of exactly?

MLK was investigated for various associations with the civil rights movement. Anti-war groups were investigated for Communist associations. Muslims have been monitored in association with anti-terror investigations. I didn't say they were all *right* - I asked which people had been brought in and questioned for no other reason than expressing opinions on Internet forums.

Got any instances?

Robear wrote:
If the FBI scanned P & C they'd probably find enough agitators to pull them aside for questioning.

Really? When have people been taken in for questioning based on their participation in a forum, rather than as part of a pre-existing investigation?

And what makes you think that the government doesn't collect *every* website?

Seriously.

All anyone needs to do is take a short internet stroll over to sites like Stormfront and read any number of completely randomly selected posts to realize that, if the United States was in fact a police state, we pretty well suck at it.

Robear wrote:

MLK was investigated for various associations with the civil rights movement. Anti-war groups were investigated for Communist associations. Muslims have been monitored in association with anti-terror investigations. I didn't say they were all *right* - I asked which people had been brought in and questioned for no other reason than expressing opinions on Internet forums.

So which law were people in the civil rights movement violating? And since when is being a communist illegal in the home of the free? And, no, Muslims weren't being monitored in association with anti-terror organizations. They were monitored for being Muslim and the FBI is getting it's pants sued off because of that.

The point is the FBI has a long history of intrusive surveillance on people and groups that have absolutely nothing to do with pre-exiting investigations as you claimed. Combine that track record with the PATRIOT Act and no one is safe from "investigations".

OG_slinger wrote:
Robear wrote:

MLK was investigated for various associations with the civil rights movement. Anti-war groups were investigated for Communist associations. Muslims have been monitored in association with anti-terror investigations. I didn't say they were all *right* - I asked which people had been brought in and questioned for no other reason than expressing opinions on Internet forums.

So which law were people in the civil rights movement violating? And since when is being a communist illegal in the home of the free? And, no, Muslims weren't being monitored in association with anti-terror organizations. They were monitored for being Muslim and the FBI is getting it's pants sued off because of that.

The point is the FBI has a long history of intrusive surveillance on people and groups that have absolutely nothing to do with pre-exiting investigations as you claimed. Combine that track record with the PATRIOT Act and no one is safe from "investigations".

Just curious how the ability to sue the pants off of the government is consistent with a police state.

Paleocon wrote:

Just curious how the ability to sue the pants off of the government is consistent with a police state.

I've never claimed the police state thing one way or another. That's other people's bag. I was simply responding to Robear's statement that the FBI only questions or surveils you if there's an ongoing criminal investigation.

gregrampage wrote:

For me the difference is not the fear, it's the attitude. With nuclear attack drills the attitude is "be prepared" essentially. With the TSA scans it's "you're all potential criminals."

Another way of putting it, we used to be afraid of other countries attacking us. Now we're apparently afraid of ourselves.

How quickly we forget locking up the Japanese in mass because they MAY be spies. The vast majority of US citizens have always been and always will be cowards.

I was simply responding to Robear's statement that the FBI only questions or surveils you if there's an ongoing criminal investigation.

I didn't say "criminal investigation" for a reason. The FBI does all sorts of investigations, some criminal, some not. That was deliberate phrasing and yes, their investigations are wider than just criminal. But the assertion was the we are in danger of being "questioned" simply because we have posted in P&C. Isn't it reasonable to ask whether that very serious claim is anything like accurate?

So come on, show me where people were questioned solely for their postings on Internet forums. That was the assertion; stay focused. MLK, John Lennon, lots of other people have been investigated by the FBI for all sorts of reasons, legitimate or not. I don't dispute that. But I *would* like to whether the line has been crossed, and arbitrary citizens are being questioned solely for expressing opinions, because that's a *very* serious claim.

And so far you've not supported it. As Paleo noted, if that's true, then why is Stormfront still around? Or the ACLU?

Because they're not Muslim.

This is the most galling aspect of the whole security theater and abuse of civil rights thing. We are collectively giving up the rights previous generations had fought for and worked hard to maintain, and we are getting nothing but a stream of blithering idiocy in return. We aren't even getting the temporary security that we are promised by the mouth-breathers.

According to the paperwork ... not Twitter, it was either "Tweeter" or "tweeter".

Who the hell would even bring shovels or spades with them in their luggage? It'd be cheaper and more convenient to just *BUY* them in the US....

[edit] OMG, *DON'T* read the comments on that article. Whatever you do, please! I beg you!.... though i will post one scary quote:

What a world we live in when they think they can say what they want when they want.
Duoae wrote:

Who the hell would even bring shovels or spades with them in their luggage? It'd be cheaper and more convenient to just *BUY* them in the US....

[edit] OMG, *DON'T* read the comments on that article. Whatever you do, please! I beg you!.... though i will post one scary quote:

What a world we live in when they think they can say what they want when they want.

That reads so perfectly that I really want to believe it was sarcasm.

Duoae wrote:

Who the hell would even bring shovels or spades with them in their luggage? It'd be cheaper and more convenient to [REDACTED].

Let the record show that Duoae is materially supporting terrorists with training and advice.

Meet the "Peacemaker"

"Warning: You are under video surveillance," reads the bold message on the side of the truck.

From the front bumper of the menacing vehicle, another sign taunts: "Whatcha gonna do when we come for you?"

The truck is a new weapon for the Fort Lauderdale Police Department in the fight against drugs and neighborhood nuisances, and it looks like a Winnebago on steroids. They call it "The Peacemaker," and it may be a first in South Florida.

Mixing high tech with simplicity, the in-your-face strategy is straightforward: load an out-of-service armored truck with some of the latest surveillance equipment available and decorate it with police emblems. Then, simply leave it parked in front of trouble spots.

"Make no mistakes about it," said Detective Travis Mandell. "We want people to know that we are watching the bad guys."

It's like they've never heard of IEDs.

93_confirmed wrote:

Meet the "Peacemaker"

So if there's a police officer in the armored car watching the surveillance cams, wouldn't their salary be better spent having them get out and do some good old fashioned community policing?

And if there's not someone inside, then what's to stop someone just coming up and spray painting the windows so the cameras see nothing?

I must be a total hypocrite for thinking that turning that neighborhood and the surrounding ones into a police state would be a vast improvement. Some of the things I've seen in that area are really, really bad.

The Howard County solution to a crime heavy area like that would be to open a community police station right next door, increase foot patrols and outreach to local schools, merchants, and community groups, and to win the population. This tank business seems tremendously short sighted.

It *is* Miami, though. Remember the 80's?

Robear wrote:

It *is* Miami, though. Remember the 80's?

So everyone wears designer clothes, shoes with no socks, and has a three-day growth? Also pastels.

No, it's just that when the criminals want to, they can show up with a surprisingly brutal array of weaponry. The early Miami scenes in "Scarface" were not entirely fiction...

OG_slinger wrote:
Robear wrote:

It *is* Miami, though. Remember the 80's?

So everyone wears designer clothes, shoes with no socks, and has a three-day growth? Also pastels.

No, this is Ft. Lauderdale in Broward and is very, very different. Mostly poor white and black folks with serious drug problems as users and less as distributors.

FBI Uses Chainsaw In Raid On Wrong Fitchburg Apartment

It’s going to be a while before things get back to normal for Judy Sanchez and her three-year-old daughter. Last Thursday, a team of FBI agents swarmed her apartment building as part of a massive citywide drug and weapons gang raid. Trouble is, Sanchez lives in apartment 2R. The suspect they were after is in 2F.

“I just happened to glance over and saw this huge chainsaw ripping down the side of my door,” she explains. “And I was freaking out. I didn’t know what was going on.” Within moments, the chainsaw had cut through most of her door, and someone on the FBI’s arrest team kicked the rest of it in.

Since when do FBI agents use a f*cking chainsaw to breach their way into an apartment? Isn't that the least stealthy and potentially the most error prone way to enter?

Edwin wrote:

I must be a total hypocrite for thinking that turning that neighborhood and the surrounding ones into a police state would be a vast improvement. Some of the things I've seen in that area are really, really bad.

Hey why you gotta bag on my neighborhood? Hookers in wheelchairs need their fix too.

The police Winnie seems like overkill, though. Sell it to BSO; they can take it to Oakland Park and film a COPS miniseries.

Yeah, what the f*ck -- using a chainsaw even if it were the right apartment is ridiculous.

Malor wrote:

Yeah, what the f*ck -- using a chainsaw even if it were the right apartment is ridiculous.

The element of surprise. No one will suspect a chainsaw. Especially if they happen to be looking through the peephole when they start cutting. It's funny how people lost their minds over Watergate, Ruby Ridge, Waco. The government is far worse now. They spy on everyone, not just the other political party. And they bust down innocent civilians' doors with chainsaws.

9/11 really did change everything.