Occupy Wall Street. Police vs people in NY.

Having worked for a collections firm, 100 percent of people defaulted by choice or were unable to repay. That is not an assumption, that is a fact of the industry. Way down the list was death, which you might consider inability to pay.

KingGorilla wrote:

Having worked for a collections firm, 100 percent of people defaulted by choice or were unable to repay. That is not an assumption, that is a fact of the industry. Way down the list was death, which you might consider inability to pay.

Yeah, that's kind of a truism. What's not included in that truism is intentions.

SixteenBlue wrote:

Yeah, that's kind of a truism. What's not included in that truism is intentions.

So only people that cannot pay a bill have debt that goes to collection?
Never people that disagree with the debt? Or people that were improperly charged? Or people that consider the debt unimportant? Or people that have no idea that they owe this debt? IE, people with no intention to repay the debt. Your assumptions are coloring in blanks I didn't leave.

Rezzy wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

Yeah, that's kind of a truism. What's not included in that truism is intentions.

So only people that cannot pay a bill have debt that goes to collection?
Never people that disagree with the debt? Or people that were improperly charged? Or people that consider the debt unimportant? Or people that have no idea that they owe this debt? IE, people with no intention to repay the debt. Your assumptions are coloring in blanks I didn't leave.

That's fair. I don't really lump people that don't even know they have it or disagree with it in with "no intention to pay it." No intention to pay is a pretty loaded phrase. That could just be me though.

Well, KG explicitly said either could not or would not pay. I personally had a debt in my name that I disagreed with that I simply let expire (hilarious side note, the collections agency that bought "my" debt from MCI Worldcom settled a class action lawsuit, so they ended up paying me.)

Well you intend the natural consequences of your actions.

Here is the thing. And people do need to cease this thinking. A default is not immoral. Strategic defaults on debts and contracts are a part of doing business. You do need to make an assessment, but in many cases defaulting will save you a lot in the long term. We have this odd honor code about consumer debts in the US.

Taking it out of housing or autos. If Ford makes a contract with US Steel for X tons of steel sheet at $5,000 a ton for 10 years. If in year 2 the price of steel in the market doubles, US steel damn well better default and start selling that steel to Chrysler. While Ford tries to sue in court, US Steel is doubling that money. Ford then has the option to either renegotiate the contract, or go through a lengthy legal battle on that contract. The worst case scenario is a court forces US Steel to honor the contract, but in the interim they are making double on that steel; likely for years.

If you owe 400k on a house valued at 100k, if the bank is not willing to refinance, default looks like a great deal.

What was the only "good" outcome from the housing bubble bursting is that we have held the banks accountable for the predatory lending. Wells Fargo paid out a rather tremendous settlement.

SixteenBlue wrote:

No intention to pay is a pretty loaded phrase. That could just be me though.

I can see that it could be. I assure you my intent for that phrase was in the purely technical sense.

Rezzy wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

No intention to pay is a pretty loaded phrase. That could just be me though.

I can see that it could be. I assure you my intent for that phrase was in the purely technical sense.

Fair enough, sorry for the derail then.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Rezzy wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

No intention to pay is a pretty loaded phrase. That could just be me though.

I can see that it could be. I assure you my intent for that phrase was in the purely technical sense.

Fair enough, sorry for the derail then.

What strange world did I step in to?

Is this the brave new world we have thanks to legalized pot?

Malor, Aetius, Minarchist, what do you think of the Rolling Jubilee? A valid way to drain inflated debts out of the system?

Sure, although it would take a lot of it to matter. Debt cleared is debt cleared. Most of the debt in the world needs to settle at far lower prices than face value, because there isn't enough real economic capacity to service it all. This is one form of that, and healthy, but it's likely to be a drop in an ocean.

And note that new debt is still being issued... Noland puts it at about $2 trillion a year, total systemic debt increase, just to keep the economy functioning at all. It would take one hell of a big Jubilee to keep up with that for even one year.

I don't think all of that $2T a year is bad debt, though, is it? Debt in and of itself is not bad; if there's no debt, there's no economy. You incur a debt when you buy things, and you then pay it off, either at the time or later. No long term debt, no long term economic activity. Gotta be a balance somewhere, probably distinguishing between debt that is useful to the borrower, and debt designed to rip off the borrower.

It depends on the debt, but since the economy is doing so poorly, not enough of it is being used productively. I can't answer what the absolute percentages are, and I'm not sure anyone can (even defining 'good' versus 'bad' debt can be quite tricky, when you get down to brass tacks), but if we're issuing 12% of the entire GDP in new debt each year, and the economy isn't growing like crazy, then things are wildly out of adjustment.

Why are we occupying the Coach outlet store?

iaintgotnopants wrote:

Why are we occupying the Coach outlet store?

They have EXCELLENT princes!

I,I "Occupy Prince Charming".

I see what you did there, Hypatian.

Al Jazeera reports French resistance hero and Holocaust survivor Stephane Hessel, whose 2010 manifesto "Time for Outrage" sold millions of copies and inspired protest movements worldwide, has died at the age of 95.

"Time for Outrage!" argued that the French needed to become as outraged now as his fellow fighters had been during the war. He was highly critical of France's treatment of illegal immigrants, and Israel's treatment of Palestinians, and passionate about the environment, a free press and France's welfare system. His call was for peaceful, non-violent insurrection.

Hessel joined Charles de Gaulle in exile during World War II, was waterboarded by the Nazis, escaped hanging in concentration camps and took part in drafting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.

The career diplomat was already celebrated as one of the last living heroes of the 20th century when, as a nonagenarian, he became the unlikely godfather of youth protest movements such as "Occupy " and Spain's "Indignados."

More on Stephane Hessel here.

A sad day.