Occupy Wall Street. Police vs people in NY.

Prederick wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

I agree with DS that there does seem to be some common ground between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

Oh there's is certainly common ground I think, it's just the philosophies behind each sides' opinions are diametrically opposite.

That's what I was getting at. If they could stop looking at each other as "dirty hippies" and "crazy racists" long enough to just agree to tackle the common ground I feel like there is a lot of common ground there. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of this is happening right now. The economy is really really f-ed. And there are people responsible who haven't been held responsible. And that makes people mad.

DSGamer wrote:
Prederick wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

I agree with DS that there does seem to be some common ground between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

Oh there's is certainly common ground I think, it's just the philosophies behind each sides' opinions are diametrically opposite.

That's what I was getting at. If they could stop looking at each other as "dirty hippies" and "crazy racists" long enough to just agree to tackle the common ground I feel like there is a lot of common ground there. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of this is happening right now. The economy is really really f-ed. And there are people responsible who haven't been held responsible. And that makes people mad.

They want to tackle it in completely different ways, though. There's common ground as far as their targets, but they could not be further apart in terms of how they want to go after those targets beyond just "put the banksters in jail!"

Then what? Where do you see common ground between them beyond that?

CheezePavilion wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Prederick wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

I agree with DS that there does seem to be some common ground between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

Oh there's is certainly common ground I think, it's just the philosophies behind each sides' opinions are diametrically opposite.

That's what I was getting at. If they could stop looking at each other as "dirty hippies" and "crazy racists" long enough to just agree to tackle the common ground I feel like there is a lot of common ground there. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of this is happening right now. The economy is really really f-ed. And there are people responsible who haven't been held responsible. And that makes people mad.

They want to tackle it in completely different ways, though. There's common ground as far as their targets, but they could not be further apart in terms of how they want to go after those targets beyond just "put the banksters in jail!"

Then what? Where do you see common ground between them beyond that?

Putting people in jail and re-establishing the rule of law would be a good start, honestly. I'd take that.

WipEout wrote:

Wow, Matt. Really? You heard on a conservative radio show that one crazy New Yorker hates Jews, and suddenly that's what the whole Occupy Wall St movement stands for?

Levin isn't just a "conservative radio show" host. He's a former Reagan staffer who's fairly batsh*t crazy. I tried to listen to his show one night and after about 15 minutes I couldn't take it anymore. He sounds like a crazy old guy standing on a porch screaming about the end of the world.

I do love the irony of a former Reagan guy talking about government spending and fiscal conservancy.

DSGamer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

They want to tackle it in completely different ways, though. There's common ground as far as their targets, but they could not be further apart in terms of how they want to go after those targets beyond just "put the banksters in jail!"

Then what? Where do you see common ground between them beyond that?

Putting people in jail and re-establishing the rule of law would be a good start, honestly. I'd take that.

Besides, I'm pretty sure random wall-street protesters are not going to be the ones introducing bills to congress. Unless this somehow turns into "start a Constitutional congress by force," then one way or another, someone with power is going to have to decide to harness this anger and turn it into their platform. *That's* when the partisanship is going to matter.

WipEout wrote:

Wow, Matt. Really? You heard on a conservative radio show that one crazy New Yorker hates Jews, and suddenly that's what the whole Occupy Wall St movement stands for?

I'm not saying that is what the whole group, or even any significant portion of this group is about. That would be silly.

WipEout wrote:

Sure, it sounds benign when you over-generalize, but I'm sure if we wanted to list all the specific bullet points that every crazy or racist Tea Partier has spouted off in front of a phone cam, you're "comparison" would hold up.

That's already been done here in various threads.

CheezePavilion wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Prederick wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

I agree with DS that there does seem to be some common ground between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

Oh there's is certainly common ground I think, it's just the philosophies behind each sides' opinions are diametrically opposite.

That's what I was getting at. If they could stop looking at each other as "dirty hippies" and "crazy racists" long enough to just agree to tackle the common ground I feel like there is a lot of common ground there. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of this is happening right now. The economy is really really f-ed. And there are people responsible who haven't been held responsible. And that makes people mad.

They want to tackle it in completely different ways, though. There's common ground as far as their targets, but they could not be further apart in terms of how they want to go after those targets beyond just "put the banksters in jail!"

Then what? Where do you see common ground between them beyond that?

We have to start somewhere. If you have the same conclusions, even if come to them from different angles, there is room for compromise and work. As much as we like to rail on the Tea Party, and I personally am definitely guilty of it, they do have some legitimate gripes. If we can find some common ground, maybe we can co-opt the co-opted.

Matt....

MattDaddy wrote:

Let's see what the occupy Wall Street protesters are angry about:

- Corporate greed
- War
- Jews in Wall Street
- Christians
- Climate change
- Racial & gender rights
- Lack of immigration reform
- Credit reporting agencies
- Debt
- Having to pay for college
- American election standards
- Rich not paying enough taxes
- Lack of jobs
- Healthcare
- Wages
- Nuclear power plants
- Fossil fuels
- Poisoned food supply
- Capitalism
- Bank bailouts
- Troy Davis

...and so on. The Tea Party has been mostly focused on being against too much government spending.

...does not fit together with...

MattDaddy wrote:

I'm not saying that is what the whole group, or even any significant portion of this group is about. That would be silly.

Let's be adults about the conversation, shall we? Some of us are trying to have a serious discussion on the common ground of regular Tea Partiers and regular Occupy Wall St. Protesters, all while you're making back-handed comments that attempt to discredit and dismiss any pertinent information that is otherwise being discussed.

MattDaddy wrote:
WipEout wrote:

Sure, it sounds benign when you over-generalize, but I'm sure if we wanted to list all the specific bullet points that every crazy or racist Tea Partier has spouted off in front of a phone cam, you're "comparison" would hold up.

That's already been done here in various threads.

....Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannd this particular conversation is over. If you're going to resort to spoiled schoolyard brat tactics, then I, at least, can't have an honest discussion with you.

SallyNasty wrote:

We have to start somewhere. If you have the same conclusions, even if come to them from different angles, there is room for compromise and work.

One conclusion that sounds very similar are the complaints that what has been going on recently is harming future generations. This includes the ones currently protesting on Wall Street to the grandchildren of the Tea Partiers. If there is at least one thing they can agree on, it's that our current path is harming them.

Compromise is a key, but sadly right now too many people (and I've been guilty of this myself) are yelling at each other from opposite sides of the river while the town washes away.

DSGamer wrote:
Prederick wrote:
MattDaddy wrote:

I agree with DS that there does seem to be some common ground between the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street.

Oh there's is certainly common ground I think, it's just the philosophies behind each sides' opinions are diametrically opposite.

That's what I was getting at. If they could stop looking at each other as "dirty hippies" and "crazy racists" long enough to just agree to tackle the common ground I feel like there is a lot of common ground there. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of this is happening right now. The economy is really really f-ed. And there are people responsible who haven't been held responsible. And that makes people mad.

Again, no. It's not enough for people to think that some of the same things are screwed up. They also have to share a vision of how to fix things.

While the Tea Partiers might agree that the financial industry is messed up they aren't going to get behind tougher regulation of the financial industry--what the Occupy folks want--because they fundamentally feel that the government *is* the problem.

The Tea Partiers know the economy is f'ed, but they're not going to support additional stimulus spending--what the Occupy folks want--because they've decided that our GDP to debt ratio is more important that stopping a recession that's been going on for years.

More importantly Tea Partiers have had political representation and power since the 2010 elections and the only things they managed to move forward are conservative social issues, such as abortion.

Agree or disagree, some of the responses are pretty funny: http://latf99p.com/

Ranger Rick wrote:

Agree or disagree, some of the responses are pretty funny: http://latf99p.com/

Western culture really has raised dehumanization to an artform, hasn't it.

Hey, these guys came to my town today. Cool.

Looks like the protesters are none too welcoming of anyone trying to co-opt their occupation. From the Occupy Wall Street subreddit:

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/wJbAG.png)

"You, nor anyone else, will own us" means the opposite of what they intended.

Sigh, grammar.

Interesting, I wonder how this will turn out for OWS.

Last night my wife found an interview with a sociologist that explained that one can never categorize a protest as being "leftist" or "right-centric" or simply having a clear list of demands or a plan too early in a social movement, and that is precisely where OWS is at the moment. Simply put, it's still too soon to tell what direction the protests will take the overall movement, or if there really is even an overall movement. She also pointed out that while there are a few different people posting lists of demands and manifestos and such on the OWS, a major point of the protests was that there was no one specific to speak for them-- they were and so far still are a large group with no individual leadership. So it makes me question the validity of the "official" manifestos and demands listed by Occupy Wall Street members.

Personally, I feel that the movement needs to find a focal point and follow a plan of action, because I'm guessing that they'll lose any relevance gained so far within the next few weeks. I wonder if shunting MoveOn.org will be a shot in the foot or a step in the right direction. As I noted before, some of the OWS organizers in other cities are reaching out to Tea Partiers and other right-leaning groups to collaborate and find common ground on which to protest-- I wonder if/when that happens, will that be the moment the protests become a full-fledged movement with a clearly defined (and agreed upon) agenda.

Ranger Rick wrote:

Agree or disagree, some of the responses are pretty funny: http://latf99p.com/

The guy's pretty douchey (though I get he's trying to be) but I found myself agreeing with more than a few of them oddly. Though some I didn't at all. Was this putting a written manifesto in front of a camera deal something the movement was encouraging? I hadn't seen anything of it before this site came around.

Seth wrote:

"You, nor anyone else, will own us" means the opposite of what they intended.

Sigh, grammar.

Yeah, that is, ugh.

DSGamer wrote:

Putting people in jail and re-establishing the rule of law would be a good start, honestly. I'd take that.

Seems a lot like closing the barn door after the horse is gone to me.

SallyNasty wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

They want to tackle it in completely different ways, though. There's common ground as far as their targets, but they could not be further apart in terms of how they want to go after those targets beyond just "put the banksters in jail!"

Then what? Where do you see common ground between them beyond that?

We have to start somewhere. If you have the same conclusions, even if come to them from different angles, there is room for compromise and work. As much as we like to rail on the Tea Party, and I personally am definitely guilty of it, they do have some legitimate gripes. If we can find some common ground, maybe we can co-opt the co-opted.

Um, the Tea Party just spent the last year and a half *not* compromising. What makes you think they're all of a sudden going to change?

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Ranger Rick wrote:

Agree or disagree, some of the responses are pretty funny: http://latf99p.com/

The guy's pretty douchey (though I get he's trying to be) but I found myself agreeing with more than a few of them oddly. Though some I didn't at all. Was this putting a written manifesto in front of a camera deal something the movement was encouraging? I hadn't seen anything of it before this site came around.

This Tumblr site is linked from OccupyWallSt.org.

And that dude is completely douchey. Yeah a liberal arts degree isn't going to land an easy, well-paid job (if any job at all), but there 's still the fact that some people are led to believe it will by the financial system that's put our economy where it is. I see pics like those and don't feel so bad that they can't get a job because they got a worthless degree and have no other marketable skills, but I do feel bad that they got duped into thinking that they could be successful in life by taking that easy path.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

The guy's pretty douchey (though I get he's trying to be) but I found myself agreeing with more than a few of them oddly. Though some I didn't at all. Was this putting a written manifesto in front of a camera deal something the movement was encouraging?

The positive part of not having a centralized and specific message is, it makes it easy to pick up anyone who happens to be disaffected.

The drawback is that some percentage of those people are going to be entitled whiners who make the rest of you look bad.

Interesting development...

PCMag[/url]]Anonymous declared "war" on the New York Stock Exchange this weekend and vowed to "erase" the NYSE from the Internet on Oct. 10 as the Occupy Wall Street protest entered its third week in New York City after a weekend that saw hundreds of protesters arrested during a planned march across the Brooklyn Bridge.

Nomad wrote:

Interesting development...

PCMag[/url]]Anonymous declared "war" on the New York Stock Exchange this weekend and vowed to "erase" the NYSE from the Internet on Oct. 10 as the Occupy Wall Street protest entered its third week in New York City after a weekend that saw hundreds of protesters arrested during a planned march across the Brooklyn Bridge.

I really don't see this helping.

Has anyone seen this? An open letter from a former tea party member:

I wish your movement better luck than we had with the tea party movement before it got hijacked by the theocrats and corporatists. We used to be non-partisan too. We were the older version of you. But, I believe that as the media apparatchik and infiltrators start to twist your cause, you will understand the frustration us early adopter tea partiers felt and that we were not your enemy after all. A fascist oligarchy on the verge of winning is our common enemy. This should be your focus. Don't be dazzled by the illusion as we were. For the sake of our future, know who you are.

Most of you won't read it, and many more will misunderstand the context, but I found it refreshing. There's more connecting OWS and the tea party than I thought.

Especially since the NYSE still uses specialists (who leverage technology, but still... dumb target)

Especially since Anonymous never actually announced plans of attacking the NYSE, and the "anonymous" declaration of war against Wall St seems to be a complete fabrication by most accounts, including that of anonnews.org.

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/04...

Origins of Occupy Wall Street is Adbusters.

I sat in on discussions down in Zuccoti Park where this very issue was being discussed. But obviously there is no single demand yet. Do you think it has developed differently than the vision outlined in Adbusters?

Originally we thought that the idea of one demand was very important. There’s been a debate going on between the one-demand vision and this other vision that is playing itself out right now on Wall Street. I think it’s a wonderful debate and there are good pointers on both sides. Currently this leaderless, demandless movement — that is still growing in leaps and bounds — I think it is fine the way it is. After these assemblies have been conducted and debates have been had in cities all around America, demands will emerge. These demands will be specific things like reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act or a 1 percent tax on financial transactions or the banning of high-frequency trading. We will get into specifics, just give us time.

I think this whole thing will stay fairly amorphous through the next big event on Oct. 6 in Washington. Then it will gain global momentum on Oct. 15 when the Europeans have their big moment in the sun. I think the big global catalytic moment may well happen on Nov. 3 or Nov. 4 when the G-20 is meeting in France. In the month following that these demands of ours will emerge and we may well find millions of people marching around the world.

Come on OCCUPY WALL STREET === focus!

Seth wrote:

Has anyone seen this? An open letter from a former tea party member:

I wish your movement better luck than we had with the tea party movement before it got hijacked by the theocrats and corporatists. We used to be non-partisan too. We were the older version of you. But, I believe that as the media apparatchik and infiltrators start to twist your cause, you will understand the frustration us early adopter tea partiers felt and that we were not your enemy after all. A fascist oligarchy on the verge of winning is our common enemy. This should be your focus. Don't be dazzled by the illusion as we were. For the sake of our future, know who you are.

Most of you won't read it, and many more will misunderstand the context, but I found it refreshing. There's more connecting OWS and the tea party than I thought.

I think this is a fair assessment. I remember the original Tea Party. They had left wing types there too. It was basically a protest of the bailouts.

Seth wrote:

Has anyone seen this? An open letter from a former tea party member:

I wish your movement better luck than we had with the tea party movement before it got hijacked by the theocrats and corporatists. We used to be non-partisan too. We were the older version of you. But, I believe that as the media apparatchik and infiltrators start to twist your cause, you will understand the frustration us early adopter tea partiers felt and that we were not your enemy after all. A fascist oligarchy on the verge of winning is our common enemy. This should be your focus. Don't be dazzled by the illusion as we were. For the sake of our future, know who you are.

Most of you won't read it, and many more will misunderstand the context, but I found it refreshing. There's more connecting OWS and the tea party than I thought.

Here's an important part of that letter:

all I am seeing is a painful rehash of how the corporate-funded government turned the pre-Presidential election tea party movement into the joke it is now. We were anarchists and ultra-libertarians,

When we think of the Tea Party, how many of us are thinking of a movement of anarchists and ultra-libertarians? How many of us even knew about the Tea Party pre-Presidental election? I didn't--the closest thing I'm aware of to what she's talking about is the "Going Galt" movement.

In other words she might not be talking about any sort of Tea Party you are aware of. If you're comparing the Tea Party as you know it to the Occupy Wall Street movement, you might actually be comparing the Tea Party she's saying was co-opted.

Before jumping on that letter, let's be sure we know what she's talking about: that's how I read it--how about all of you?