Deus Ex: H+ Spoiler thread

Depends on how you define it. There are encounters with Anna, Maggie Chow, Gunther, Simons, and Page that are spaced approximately the same way as the boss fights in HR. If you expand it to include set-piece events, the raid on the nightclub in Hong Kong, the fight at Paul's apartment, and a few other events may qualify. This being Deus Ex, there is a chance that a given player would never encounter one or more of these encounters.

Duoae wrote:

Holy crap... So, when RPS mentioned in their "wot i think" that the Deus Ex boss fights were outsourced, i thought it was just one of their strange parlances like "angry internet men" etc.

However, it looks like they were literally outsourced to a different company who had no idea about Deus Ex!!

I.... I just don't even know what to think about that sort of project management...

Certainly does explain a great deal of how out of place they all felt (other than the last one).. hopefully this will influence the teams next DX game (if there is another one) in a positive fashion and they come up with a different mechanic(s) for the games "climax" moment(s)

Duoae wrote:

I.... I just don't even know what to think about that sort of project management...

Given they had to cut at least two hub areas from the game due to time (or was it budget?) issues, I can imagine why someone would think that outsourcing a, in their view, relatively compartmentalised part of the game would make sense.

Not that it was a good idea. However, it's clear from looking at a lot of different parts of the game (and especially in light of seeing the original teaser trailer) that chunks of the game were cut out. For one thing, it looks as if the player was meant to be an active part of the Detroit riots, which in the release version of the game are literally walled off.

Caddrel wrote:
Duoae wrote:

I.... I just don't even know what to think about that sort of project management...

Given they had to cut at least two hub areas from the game due to time (or was it budget?) issues, I can imagine why someone would think that outsourcing a, in their view, relatively compartmentalised part of the game would make sense.

I think you're misrepresenting what they've said. Almost all games have content cut from them, it's simply a matter of devs biting off more than they can chew in the concepting stages. When they started building the city hubs they found that they were a much bigger undertaking than they had initially thought so they had to scale it back. If you don't do that you get one of those games that take forever to come out and just suffer for it.

Scratched wrote:

How many boss fights did DE have, or anything approaching one? I can only think of Walton Simons, but he can be avoided both times.

There was also Gunther in Battery Park but you could have snuck through the sewer and passed him all together. It was awesome because it's like you made a clean getaway

TheGameguru wrote:
Duoae wrote:

Holy crap... So, when RPS mentioned in their "wot i think" that the Deus Ex boss fights were outsourced, i thought it was just one of their strange parlances like "angry internet men" etc.

However, it looks like they were literally outsourced to a different company who had no idea about Deus Ex!!

I.... I just don't even know what to think about that sort of project management...

Certainly does explain a great deal of how out of place they all felt (other than the last one).. hopefully this will influence the teams next DX game (if there is another one) in a positive fashion and they come up with a different mechanic(s) for the games "climax" moment(s)

The thing that most got me about the encounters was that the characters you were fighting had no development. They were just shells that were attacking you for exactly the same reasons as the other 459 goons in the game. That struck me as particularly boring. So... the only real purpose the boss encounters served was as a gate to the next section of the plot. It could have been any other sort of gate (perhaps even an actual gate) or timed event but they did what they did.

Duoae wrote:

The thing that most got me about the encounters was that the characters you were fighting had no development. They were just shells that were attacking you for exactly the same reasons as the other 459 goons in the game. That struck me as particularly boring. So... the only real purpose the boss encounters served was as a gate to the next section of the plot. It could have been any other sort of gate (perhaps even an actual gate) or timed event but they did what they did.

That's along the lines I've been thinking too, the mercenaries were obviously involved in the conspiracy, but besides a few emails there wasn't really much evidence of that presented to the player during the gameplay. The impression that gave to me was that these mercenaries were hired goons just like the guys in black uniforms, you never really see them get their hands dirty in the conspiracy (compare with the characters from DE). It kind of puts a divide between them and the main plot characters like Zhao, Sandorval, Taggart, Sarif, and so on. They're just tough enemies you have to pass at certain points of the game.

Also agreed with the comment (was it in the other thread?) about how you might have been more involved in the riots in earlier designs of the game, the trailer showed the second boss stirring up trouble. Something else I noticed in the trailer was that Barret was fighting against the background used in the Panchea docks, so it would seem DEHR may have been structured very differently at one point.

As out of place as these bosses seem, on my second play-through I can see that the problem was not that the bosses are "too hard". The problem was that the game didn't teach you how to fight until the first boss, for example. If anything, this is a side-effect of the "go your own way" play style. When confronted with an electro-puddle, you go around it, not realizing you should probably get the enhancement to make that trivial so your second boss fight can involve setting off EMPs in the water flooded data center to win easily.

BadMojo wrote:

As out of place as these bosses seem, on my second play-through I can see that the problem was not that the bosses are "too hard". The problem was that the game didn't teach you how to fight until the first boss, for example. If anything, this is a side-effect of the "go your own way" play style. When confronted with an electro-puddle, you go around it, not realizing you should probably get the enhancement to make that trivial so your second boss fight can involve setting off EMPs in the water flooded data center to win easily.

Yeah, I'm also finding that being ultra-aggressive in the boss fights works to your advantage as well. Spamming grenades/mines, unloading with whatever upgraded weapon you have and not staying in one place for long makes quick work of all of them.

I've beaten the first two bosses without firing a shot.

BadMojo wrote:

I've beaten the first two bosses without firing a shot.

How did you beat the first one? Did you get the thing were he throws grenades that bounce right back to him?

iaintgotnopants wrote:
BadMojo wrote:

I've beaten the first two bosses without firing a shot.

How did you beat the first one? Did you get the thing were he throws grenades that bounce right back to him?

There's exploding barrels all around you can pick up and throw at him.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
BadMojo wrote:

I've beaten the first two bosses without firing a shot.

How did you beat the first one? Did you get the thing were he throws grenades that bounce right back to him?

Like Vega says. If you pick up gas tanks and hit him with them, then use the red barrels, you can kill him easily.

On my first time through, I did not save Malik. And frankly, once I found out I was pretty upset. I must have killed every bad dude I saw from that point on without asking questions. That turned me into an engine of death.

So, I decided on my second time through, I would not give up. I would save Fly-Girl. I chose every enhancement, weapon, mod, grenade with the idea that it would be used in that fight. And tonight, I did it. I had not killed a single person until that fight.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

I saved Malik. And I thought of that quote from Pulp Fiction, and then I thought, "I would play this again if I could be Samuel L. Jackson instead of Jensen."

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made. I haven't felt the urge to play DEHR a second time, but I suppose I would go through and save her then.

I went full pacifist up until that point (and afterwards), but that section had me bringing out the fully upgraded sniper rifle I'd been lugging around all game "just in case". One of the more effective parts of the game, I thought.

Sonicator wrote:

I went full pacifist up until that point (and afterwards), but that section had me bringing out the fully upgraded sniper rifle I'd been lugging around all game "just in case". One of the more effective parts of the game, I thought.

It's interesting how similar our approaches to the game were. I'd been hauling around an upgraded assault rifle the entire game without using it. It was quite therapeutic to finally let go Terminator style.

I think one of the things that they should pay attention to in the sequel is that, whereas the boss fights were widely derided, people's overall reactions to this segment were very positive.

I found the entire Malik ambush more difficult than any of the boss fights, but also far more satisfying and interesting. Wish there were a lot more "against overwhelming odds" sections in the game.

Sonicator wrote:

I went full pacifist up until that point (and afterwards), but that section had me bringing out the fully upgraded sniper rifle I'd been lugging around all game "just in case". One of the more effective parts of the game, I thought.

I did the same thing.

Caddrel wrote:
Sonicator wrote:

I went full pacifist up until that point (and afterwards), but that section had me bringing out the fully upgraded sniper rifle I'd been lugging around all game "just in case". One of the more effective parts of the game, I thought.

It's interesting how similar our approaches to the game were. I'd been hauling around an upgraded assault rifle the entire game without using it. It was quite therapeutic to finally let go Terminator style.

I think one of the things that they should pay attention to in the sequel is that, whereas the boss fights were widely derided, people's overall reactions to this segment were very positive.

I found the entire Malik ambush more difficult than any of the boss fights, but also far more satisfying and interesting. Wish there were a lot more "against overwhelming odds" sections in the game.

I particularly liked how "human" that part felt, whereas most of the game felt more focused on tech (hacking, augments, and so on). The sequel definitely needs more moments like that.

I'm probably going to try a shooty playthrough at some point: as you say, I imagine it would be pretty therapeutic.

Thinking of which, I know some of the endings:

Talked about Jensen retaining his humanity and resisting the temptation to let the augments sweep aside any challenges - is that specific to going a very pacifist playthrough, or did people who went shot their way through the game get the same thing?

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

BadMojo wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

Malik's not the only one and they don't hide that. The harvesters make an operation of acquiring augs. It's not like the triads in DE where they're comparatively cute and cuddly (Training a little kid to extort money, awwww. Releasing rats in a restaurant, hehehe), if anything I'd say it's good to show the ugly side of a crime syndicate. You don't care if it's just some random person they found, but making it a character you're familiar with highlights it better.

Scratched wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

Malik's not the only one and they don't hide that. The harvesters make an operation of acquiring augs. It's not like the triads in DE where they're comparatively cute and cuddly (Training a little kid to extort money, awwww. Releasing rats in a restaurant, hehehe), if anything I'd say it's good to show the ugly side of a crime syndicate. You don't care if it's just some random person they found, but making it a character you're familiar with highlights it better.

I wasn't questioning the motives of the bad guys, but goading tuffalobuffalo about his robot-like emotions towards the only character that doesn't want to use Jensen like a tool to change the world.

BadMojo wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

When they fixed his body they removed his heart...

Duoae wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

When they fixed his body they removed his heart...

;)

Jensen may not have teared up, but I did.

Either I'm not very observent, or I took a different path to Tong than most people, but I didn't see Malik's body in the Harvester hideout.

Duoae wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

I was completely content not to save Malik my first time through even though I suspected it was possible. I thought it made it more like a movie/novel. Sacrifices will be made.

How did you deal with finding her body and Jensen remaining cool and emotionless? Or, not even asking Tong why he had her body and was apparently stealing her implants? That's cold, man. Cold.

When they fixed his body they removed his heart...

;)

He's more machine than man now.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Either I'm not very observent, or I took a different path to Tong than most people, but I didn't see Malik's body in the Harvester hideout.

It was literally two rooms away. I happened upon her and was a bit confused because i'd found someone wearing a jumpsuit. I looked a bit closer and realised wtf was going on. I was pretty appalled.

Duoae wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

Either I'm not very observent, or I took a different path to Tong than most people, but I didn't see Malik's body in the Harvester hideout.

It was literally two rooms away. I happened upon her and was a bit confused because i'd found someone wearing a jumpsuit. I looked a bit closer and realised wtf was going on. I was pretty appalled.

I'm not saying she wasn't there. I just find it very interesting that such a significant story detail could be entirely optional. Most developers would funnel you through that room, make it a requirement for reaching Tong, but I'm pretty sure I bypassed it.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Either I'm not very observent, or I took a different path to Tong than most people, but I didn't see Malik's body in the Harvester hideout.

She's only there if she's killed (obviously), and she's in a sideroom on the bottom level of the car park, on an operating table. Also on my first run when I let her die, I stealth/sprinted to the lift, rather than have the vehicle explode and while in the lift she was executed by a Belltower guy, which might be an alternate explanation to the head wound (which I didn't actually see on that run, didn't look close enough), I can't imagine it doing anything good to augs in her skull.

It's not a major plot detail though, it's a detail that adds a bit more to the harvester faction which involves a character you're familiar with. It's like reading an email that discusses them finding a body in a ditch they can pull augs from.