I know this is jumping way back, but as soon as you bring up razors and shaving I have to ask you to please leave the conversation. You are overthinking things that nobody cares about to such an extent that you are literally sucking the fun out of everything.
I find it interesting that the only times in the film I felt myself pause and say "buh?" was when Lois Lane was in places she really should not have been. Despite technically having more of a presence for a love story here, I feel like there was even less chemistry going on here than Thor had between Chris Hemsworth and Natalie Portman. Amy Adams did her rendition of Lois Lane great, as did What's-The-Actor as Clark Kent/Superman, but their relationship? Eh. It should have been something that, at the end, she was starting to dig him, and he her.
But Hollywood needs to have a kiss.
Other than that, I was on board with this entire film. Zod was bred to be a fascist Paladin type character. He wasn't clever. He wasn't diplomatic. He had a plan.
Find the codex. Retrieve the codex. Rebuild Krypton on a world capable of sustaining life and resources. Someone mentioned Venus, but just because it's closer to Earth's sun, does that mean it was fitting for Kryptonian life?
Regarding the powers and weakening:
My understanding is that the Kryptonian atmosphere had a radiation that interferred with the sun's rays or his absorption of the sun's rays, and therefore rendered him human. Of course, you could then ask why he gets weaker instead of maintaining his strength, but you're debating the f*cking logic of Superman.
This is like making up pseudo-science or whatever to explain why a lightsaber doesn't go on forever. Y'know why? Because it's more awesome of it doesn't, God dammit, now stop thinking about it and have some f*cking fun!
Let me catch my breath a moment.
I mean, really. Some of the complaints my friend had, and I've been reading here, just make me wonder if people are waiting for inconsistencies while watching a movie. As stated, the only time I was sucked out was stuff like:
Why is Lois Lane out on that field with Superman and not behind the lines with the tanks? In fact, why is she outside at all instead of in a bunker like a civilian should be? And why does Zod want Lois Lane? For convenience, clearly, but I feel like they should have done this a lot better, still.
Same with "Why is Lois on the military plane?"
Y'know why I liked Man of Steel? Because normally Superman is boring. Instead, I got a film where Superman was trying to figure out a place in this world, having to wander from one job to the next as soon as his cover was blown for doing the right thing. Flashing back constantly to his moments as a child, to reinforce his experiences as an adult by going through how he had to adapt as a child. Seeing child Clark Kent resist fighting means more than seeing adult Clark Kent resist fighting.
I liked that his fathers had conflicting perspectives on who he should be, or how he should present himself. Jor-El says he'll be glorious, he'll pretty much be a God-like Jesus-ish figure to humankind. Human father says he'll call everything humans understand into question, and he'll be hated for it. I like this conflict. It gives Superman personality, something he has desperately needed.
I only wish they weren't in such a rush to resolve the conflict of the film, because I feel like the ensuing conflict with Zod could have been stretched out another movie.
Fortunately, there are still Kryptonians stuck in the Phantom Zone, which they could manage to escape again.
As for the action scenes, yes, they went on a bit too long, but at the same time, this was the best live-action episode of Dragon Ball Z I've ever seen. Good on Zack Snyder for providing.
There was only one last thing that stood out to me at the end of the film:
The other folks in the original Tropes vs. Women in Games thread really rubbed off on me, because as soon as that female marine said Superman was hot, I groaned. They took a woman from a position of strength, and turned her into a giggling school girl.
Though damn, what a cutie.
So those are my basic thoughts. First Superman thing I've really ever enjoyed.
Oh:
I don't remember "Superman doesn't kill" being a big thing about the character. That seems more Batman's shtick, and is made to be a much better conflict throughout many of his stories. I am not as familiar with Superman, but for some reason him killing, as long as it is desperate, doesn't bother me. I feel like they set up some cheesy conditions to justify it, but I also believe they were in character when Zod said "This will end after you or I die". I don't think Zod would have ever stopped until someone died. The conclusion was inevitable.
I just wish it had happened in a second film.
Well said ccesarano. My two lingering gripes now that I've seen it a couple times...
1. I really hate the compulsive need Hollywood has about killing the villains. It doesn't always happen, but it happens a lot. Having them pose a lingering threat has always seemed a better decision to me and it kind of a defining element of the hero struggle.
2. I think this is the first time I've seen a rendition of Zod were he was willing to forgo the powers that earth bestowed on him. It seems strange to me that he wouldn't say "Ya know, being able to fly is really worth a little short term discomfort".
But this is the story Snyder wanted to tell so...
Go go ccesarano!
The only problem I had is that given Zod tells us it's been a day or two since Zod discovered Earth, they should have had to stay longer to absorb enough yellow sunlight. Other than that, do you not know how important air is to a living organism and what it's used for? It's not just for convenience; one tends to die without it. Once you have the miracle of breathing poisonous air and getting used to it, well, the movie's effects from that point on are hardly magical.
And he's able to shave because his hair is just normal hair, naturally.
I find myself in this frustrating, Twilight Zone ironic situation where criticisms people have are those I've had and shared for years about other movies of this ilk. Basically, I see things and think "Oh, now you care about that, huh?"
I enjoyed ccesarano take on it.
I enjoyed it, felt a bit too action driven.
What bothered me most was Louise and Kal El, I never felt the chemistry, the kiss felt out of place.
The movie does a wonderful job of portraying Superman as a lonely person. Louise feels like the first true friend, the romance not so much.
I enjoyed ccesarano take on it.
I enjoyed it, felt a bit too action driven.What bothered me most was Louise and Kal El, I never felt the chemistry, the kiss felt out of place.
The movie does a wonderful job of portraying Superman as a lonely person. Louise feels like the first true friend, the romance not so much.
Lois, sir. Her name is Lois.
Things I would have loved to see;
- Superman having a harder time getting used to his powers. He's never really leaped above a building, outran a speeding train or punched a tree. It would be great to see how how he calibrates his powers due to never using them, while Zod et al handling the additional power.
- less of Krypton. I'm not a fan. Not of the comic, not of the previous movies, or the canon in general. I felt the first 20 minutes could have been removed and make the movie better. Just to be clear, it's not that I don't like Superman, it's just that I haven't followed any of his story.
- more effort on Superman trying to take the fight to less populated areas. I felt the fights remained in the city because viewers were being treated what is being called by some "destruction porn".
- less "destruction porn"; it felt Michael Bay-ish at times. Punching someone through 7 buildings does provide some measure of the strength and powers at stake, but I can't help think of the magnitude of destruction a sequel will demand. It's always MORE of the previous movie.
- a more about a human, vulnerable superhero. I thought the movie excelled at making this demi-god a human, relatable character. I would prefer more scenes about him trying to relate to a world where he doesn't belong, rather than buildings crumbling around him.
- Superman's stance on not killing. I couldn't understand his anguish upon killing Zod. The man was trying to destroy the only world Superman knew as home. Zod incarnated every teaching both Fathers (Kriptonian and Earthly) ever taught him. He was killing people left and right. Zod showed no intention of backing off; even more set on destroying Earth and all humans by the end. It was necessary. If Superman's decision not to kill is part of the comic canon (I believe it is), then delve on that.
wrapping the last one in spoilers.
Should we set a date for spoilers? Maybe a full month after release?
Should we set a date for spoilers? Maybe a full month after release?
Spoilers are spoilers. A lot of people wait for Netflix/Amazon. We still have spoiler tags in TV series threads for shows that aired 3, 4, 5 seasons back, and people are just now catching up on things.
And with most game catch-all threads, the only time spoilers are allowed is in the thread about the sequel game. If you're in the sequel thread it's assumed you played the first one. Seems like a pretty solid rule.
Saw it today and loved it. Some thoughts:
Neat little foreshadowing/worldbuilding showing the LexCorp brand.
Seeing Clark watching a KU game made me wonder if at some point they were going to add a comment/joke about the colors of his suit. (Like they did with Aquaman on Smallville)
Thought the Kryptonian scenes were excellent. Great character development between Jor-El and Zod, establishing that in the past they were allies or even friends.
Got a little misty at a few points. Jonathan Kent's death had to top that list.
Kudos on the pacing. I never felt bored or that the movie dragged at any point.
Spoiler:- Superman's stance on not killing. I couldn't understand his anguish upon killing Zod. The man was trying to destroy the only world Superman knew as home. Zod incarnated every teaching both Fathers (Kriptonian and Earthly) ever taught him. He was killing people left and right. Zod showed no intention of backing off; even more set on destroying Earth and all humans by the end. It was necessary. If Superman's decision not to kill is part of the comic canon (I believe it is), then delve on that.
Supes' stance on killing varies between "never ever" and "VERY occasionally, when absolutely necessary" depending on the writer. It's never been as core a part of his ethos as, say, Batman, but he generally at least tries to avoid it, and he's so powerful that it very rarely becomes absolutely necessary.
I didn't mind his reaction to killing Zod so much in and of itself; I read it as being less about killing the man himself, and more about severing his last tie to his birthplace. It made some sort of sense that this would be a Big Fat Hairy Deal to Kal-El.
Unfortunately, the impact was more than a bit lessened by the fact that his reaction to the destruction of the colony ship (and with it, thousands or millions of potential Kryptonians; literally the entire future of his race) was decidedly understated. I would have thought that this would have been more deserving of his feels than the death of one man.
Hobbes2099 wrote:Spoiler:- Superman's stance on not killing. I couldn't understand his anguish upon killing Zod. The man was trying to destroy the only world Superman knew as home. Zod incarnated every teaching both Fathers (Kriptonian and Earthly) ever taught him. He was killing people left and right. Zod showed no intention of backing off; even more set on destroying Earth and all humans by the end. It was necessary. If Superman's decision not to kill is part of the comic canon (I believe it is), then delve on that.
Spoiler:Supes' stance on killing varies between "never ever" and "VERY occasionally, when absolutely necessary" depending on the writer. It's never been as core a part of his ethos as, say, Batman, but he generally at least tries to avoid it, and he's so powerful that it very rarely becomes absolutely necessary.
I didn't mind his reaction to killing Zod so much in and of itself; I read it as being less about killing the man himself, and more about severing his last tie to his birthplace. It made some sort of sense that this would be a Big Fat Hairy Deal to Kal-El.
Unfortunately, the impact was more than a bit lessened by the fact that his reaction to the destruction of the colony ship (and with it, thousands or millions of potential Kryptonians; literally the entire future of his race) was decidedly understated. I would have thought that this would have been more deserving of his feels than the death of one man.
Yeah, I was expecting a lot more of a reaction that that as well.
hbi2k wrote:Hobbes2099 wrote:Spoiler:- Superman's stance on not killing. I couldn't understand his anguish upon killing Zod. The man was trying to destroy the only world Superman knew as home. Zod incarnated every teaching both Fathers (Kriptonian and Earthly) ever taught him. He was killing people left and right. Zod showed no intention of backing off; even more set on destroying Earth and all humans by the end. It was necessary. If Superman's decision not to kill is part of the comic canon (I believe it is), then delve on that.
Spoiler:Supes' stance on killing varies between "never ever" and "VERY occasionally, when absolutely necessary" depending on the writer. It's never been as core a part of his ethos as, say, Batman, but he generally at least tries to avoid it, and he's so powerful that it very rarely becomes absolutely necessary.
I didn't mind his reaction to killing Zod so much in and of itself; I read it as being less about killing the man himself, and more about severing his last tie to his birthplace. It made some sort of sense that this would be a Big Fat Hairy Deal to Kal-El.
Unfortunately, the impact was more than a bit lessened by the fact that his reaction to the destruction of the colony ship (and with it, thousands or millions of potential Kryptonians; literally the entire future of his race) was decidedly understated. I would have thought that this would have been more deserving of his feels than the death of one man.
Yeah, I was expecting a lot more of a reaction that that as well.
But "Krypton had its chance." The Federation should put this version of Supes in charge of a starship. Now here's a man who wouldn't waste a bunch of time wringing his hands over the Prime Directive. "Sorry. Non-interference doctrine trumps all. Let 'em die."
- more effort on Superman trying to take the fight to less populated areas. I felt the fights remained in the city because viewers were being treated what is being called by some "destruction porn".
I'm actually really glad they didn't do this, because it's dumb. It would only work if the villain was incredibly stupid, or completely focused on killing the hero. Zod was neither. He cared more about punishing Superman than he did about killing him, and civilian deaths are the perfect tool for the job.
I mean, let's think about this. You're an evil villain in the middle of a populated area. The hero wants to relocate the fight to a more favourable location. Do you let him? Of course not! As long as you're in the city, his attention is divided and he has to restrain himself. Plus, if he tries to lure you away and you don't take the bait it looks like he ran away and abandoned the city. It's win-win.
I feel like it would work better for a sequel if the world is also in conflict over whether Superman was good for them or not. You could argue that if he weren't there to begin with, then Zod and his goons wouldn't have been at Earth either. All the destruction was his fault, and the people of Earth don't want that level of power on their planet.
I've always known Superman to be loved in stories and everyone to hope on him. The idea that people are divided is more interesting to me for the character, even if it is trite and was being done at the end of the Avengers.
I feel like it would work better for a sequel if the world is also in conflict over whether Superman was good for them or not. You could argue that if he weren't there to begin with, then Zod and his goons wouldn't have been at Earth either. All the destruction was his fault, and the people of Earth don't want that level of power on their planet.
I strongly expect this will be Lex Luthor's belief.
I saw the movie last night and I really loved it as well.
One thing that I saw mentioned above was that I felt that Superman should have had more of an advantage
from being able to control his powers after having grown up on earth and being able to gauge how much strength to use. In comparison, the other Kryptonians just immediately adapted to the powers and beat Superman up with ease. No one over-shot their target or mis-threw a punch or whatever...
Two things I was unsure about with regards to the plot and whatnot:
The expansion and colonisation of the Kryptonian race happened tens of thousands of years ago along with their teraformers but, somehow, Jor-El designed the one they end up on? And even though a few generations have passed since their expansionist tendencies stopped their colonies had all died out? Where none of them self sufficient?! How long do Kryptonians live for?!
That bit of "logic" really didn't sit right with me. Would have made more sense that there was a Kryptonian power struggle with the colonies and they were defeated and instead the Kryptonians stopped making colonies... and that the computer programme of Jor-El knows everything about the ship because he is part of the ship...
Hobbes2099 wrote:- more effort on Superman trying to take the fight to less populated areas. I felt the fights remained in the city because viewers were being treated what is being called by some "destruction porn".
I'm actually really glad they didn't do this, because it's dumb. It would only work if the villain was incredibly stupid, or completely focused on killing the hero. Zod was neither. He cared more about punishing Superman than he did about killing him, and civilian deaths are the perfect tool for the job.
I mean, let's think about this. You're an evil villain in the middle of a populated area. The hero wants to relocate the fight to a more favourable location. Do you let him? Of course not! As long as you're in the city, his attention is divided and he has to restrain himself. Plus, if he tries to lure you away and you don't take the bait it looks like he ran away and abandoned the city. It's win-win.
So show that. Use it for characterization. Show Superman struggling to limit the damage. Show him getting beat up over it. Show him getting cornered. Show him caring about life. Earn that final moment instead of making me sit through this boring, stakeless slugfest ending in one of the most ridiculous, bizarre payoffs I've seen in a long time. I mean, what's the suspense supposed to be here? Whether Superman will kill Zod? Of course he f*cking will. He's Superman in Man of Steel. He blew a a ship filled with Kryptonian babbies. He doesn't give a f*ck about killing.
So I wans't a fan. Like all of Snyder's work, It's real pretty, but also completely vacuous. Once the action started, it proved once again that he cares much more about cool visuals than stories, and my interest went out the window.
One thing that I saw mentioned above was that I felt that Superman should have had more of an advantage
Spoiler:from being able to control his powers after having grown up on earth and being able to gauge how much strength to use. In comparison, the other Kryptonians just immediately adapted to the powers and beat Superman up with ease. No one over-shot their target or mis-threw a punch or whatever...
Two things I was unsure about with regards to the plot and whatnot:
Spoiler:The expansion and colonisation of the Kryptonian race happened tens of thousands of years ago along with their teraformers but, somehow, Jor-El designed the one they end up on? And even though a few generations have passed since their expansionist tendencies stopped their colonies had all died out? Where none of them self sufficient?! How long do Kryptonians live for?!
That bit of "logic" really didn't sit right with me. Would have made more sense that there was a Kryptonian power struggle with the colonies and they were defeated and instead the Kryptonians stopped making colonies... and that the computer programme of Jor-El knows everything about the ship because he is part of the ship...
I feel like I'm in a Man of Steel Defense Force [MOSDEF(tm)] when I remember them explaining most of this stuff in the movie.
Zod and his officers trained their whole lives to adapt and overcome, something he points out by referring to his first exposure as a momentary weakness and again when he demonstrates his ability to fly and mocks Clark for not similarly displaying any proper fighting skill.
Jor-El designed the ship they were stored on in the Phantom Zone when Krypton cracked open. The World Engine was just something they picked up, after being freed, while searching the colony and outpost worlds for any other survivors, even though it was apparently larger than their own ship. At no time are any of the characters on the World Engine itself.
According to Jor-El, the colonies and outposts were simply abandoned when population control was introduced. Outposts aren't intended to be entirely self-sufficient, not for hundreds of years, so maybe those folks were just never sent a recall order.
Finally watched this and thought it was incredible! It was just so much fun. Zach Snyder's style and cinematography works a lot better when it's more grounded in a current reality. Everything was just beautiful. I actually really enjoyed this story interpretation of Superman. I'm fairly bleh on any Superman story content other than the animated series stuff with Mxyzptlk. Anyways, I'm pretty surprised and happy.
In other news, apparently Red Box is the only way to watch new movies these days. It's $1.50 to rent a Blu-ray. WTF. It's $5 to rent a possibly 1080p version off of every streaming service? *facepalm*
I enjoyed the movie, but would have liked to have seen it split into two with a bit more added. The first would be more of an exploration of him wandering and finally accepting who he is. It ends, and then in a post-credit scene we see Zod's ship.
Finally watched this and thought it was incredible! It was just so much fun. Zach Snyder's style and cinematography works a lot better when it's more grounded in a current reality. Everything was just beautiful. I actually really enjoyed this story interpretation of Superman. I'm fairly bleh on any Superman story content other than the animated series stuff with Mxyzptlk. Anyways, I'm pretty surprised and happy.
In other news, apparently Red Box is the only way to watch new movies these days. It's $1.50 to rent a Blu-ray. WTF. It's $5 to rent a possibly 1080p version off of every streaming service? *facepalm*
Yeah. Get the Red Box app and you can track down copies of movies (if you live in a city with multiple Red Box locations in close proximity) or games in your area. Every other service thinks they're Blockbuster.
I'm fairly bleh on any Superman story content other than the animated series stuff with Mxyzptlk. Anyways, I'm pretty surprised and happy.
Huge Gilbert Godfried fan, are we?
tuffalobuffalo wrote:I'm fairly bleh on any Superman story content other than the animated series stuff with Mxyzptlk. Anyways, I'm pretty surprised and happy.
Huge Gilbert Godfried fan, are we?
Saw this last night. It's not perfect, but I really enjoyed it. I think the Internet Hate Machine is doing a great job helping to keep my expectations for movies low so I'm almost always pleasantly surprised when movies based on geek properties turn out to not actually murder babies.
Duoae wrote:One thing that I saw mentioned above was that I felt that Superman should have had more of an advantage
Spoiler:from being able to control his powers after having grown up on earth and being able to gauge how much strength to use. In comparison, the other Kryptonians just immediately adapted to the powers and beat Superman up with ease. No one over-shot their target or mis-threw a punch or whatever...
Two things I was unsure about with regards to the plot and whatnot:
Spoiler:The expansion and colonisation of the Kryptonian race happened tens of thousands of years ago along with their teraformers but, somehow, Jor-El designed the one they end up on? And even though a few generations have passed since their expansionist tendencies stopped their colonies had all died out? Where none of them self sufficient?! How long do Kryptonians live for?!
That bit of "logic" really didn't sit right with me. Would have made more sense that there was a Kryptonian power struggle with the colonies and they were defeated and instead the Kryptonians stopped making colonies... and that the computer programme of Jor-El knows everything about the ship because he is part of the ship...
I feel like I'm in a Man of Steel Defense Force [MOSDEF(tm)] when I remember them explaining most of this stuff in the movie.
Spoiler:Zod and his officers trained their whole lives to adapt and overcome, something he points out by referring to his first exposure as a momentary weakness and again when he demonstrates his ability to fly and mocks Clark for not similarly displaying any proper fighting skill.
Jor-El designed the ship they were stored on in the Phantom Zone when Krypton cracked open. The World Engine was just something they picked up, after being freed, while searching the colony and outpost worlds for any other survivors, even though it was apparently larger than their own ship. At no time are any of the characters on the World Engine itself.
According to Jor-El, the colonies and outposts were simply abandoned when population control was introduced. Outposts aren't intended to be entirely self-sufficient, not for hundreds of years, so maybe those folks were just never sent a recall order.
Yeah. If anything the movie explains too much. There's very little mystery, but I guess things need to be explained in minute detail to try prevent people from picking things to pieces.
but I guess things need to be explained in minute detail to try prevent people from picking things to pieces.
Ha! Finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow is more likely.
HBOGO late pass!
I thought it was great, and the father/son stuff really hit me harder than it should have; I guess having had a son the past year has changed my emotional chemistry for stuff like that nowadays.
I do agree with ccesarano's thought on Lois Lane in those particular WTF? moments.
Quick question, because I don't feel like going through 7 pages of spoiler tags:
[spoiler]Do you think Lois Lane got Clark his job at the Daily Planet? More specifically, was that a look of recognition she gave him when they were formally introduced? She knows his human name and all of that, and I kinda want to doubt that the movie would suddenly go with the 'oh he's wearing glasses? I can't recognize him anymore' schtick.[quote]
Spoiler:Do you think Lois Lane got Clark his job at the Daily Planet? More specifically, was that a look of recognition she gave him when they were formally introduced? She knows his human name and all of that, and I kinda want to doubt that the movie would suddenly go with the 'oh he's wearing glasses? I can't recognize him anymore' schtick.
Recognition followed by a quick realization that she can't appear to have met him before, then injecting double meaning into "Welcome to The Planet."
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