Superman: Man of Steel Catch All

Spoiler:

My understanding is that the new colonies failed because Krypton cut off all contact with them. They probably weren't fully self-sufficient yet.
Also, if there's only the one Codex and it is required to operate the nurseries, then without access to it the colonies would have died out unless they started making babies the old-fashioned way.

Jayhawker wrote:

It did have Zach Snyder disease.

The answer is to pretend that the long repetitive scenes of violence were merely there to point out that this kind of pandering to the lowest common denominator is a bad thing. Just pretend it has a deeper meaning.

Is this at all surprising considering the source material is a comic book character and this this sort of thing is commonplace?

Superman Returns was considered a failure because of it's lack of action. I'm glad to see a Superman where he's hitting something other than real estate.

EDIT:
David Goyer addresses the violence in Man of Steel. Contains SPOILERS.

DSGamer wrote:

Good points, Yonder. Aside from the obvious (big budget action movies demand lots of conflict) I can think of a couple of reasons.

Spoiler:

#1 - The world engine fails on some worlds? Some exposition might have cleared this up as obviously many colonies failed. Why was that, btw?

#2 - The fact that Kryptonians are breed "Brave New World" style to fit certain roles, maybe Zod couldn't see the diplomatic path or had no inclination to even try it. Once again something that deserved more exposition.

The more I think about that the more I wish movie 1 was about Krypton only.

Spoiler:

I definitely think that your second point is what they were trying to convey, but I don't think that they did a good job of it. The ramifications of a strict caste society suddenly having to adjust to life without one (or in this case all) of the other castes is an interesting one, but I feel like it's something they failed to do.

I think that one of Zod's subordinates should have been voicing these concerns and alternatives. Show the struggle of a rigid group of people that don't have the tools to adapt to a new time period try and fail. Also, if there had been another very sympathetic Kryptonian then the viewer would have felt more of Superman's remorse about needing to imprison them again.

There was more than enough tension and distrust amongst the humans to have Zod attempt a more diplomatic route and then just not have the patience out ability to succeed at it. It would also be a better movie because the viewer is never under the impression that this meeting will go well. Zod is a bad guy, Superman its good. Sure, he is a bad guy with very good motivations, but he's not quite as far along as he needs to be.

Convince the viewer that there actually is a chance for s happy ending before you take it all away.

Along these lines, I thought that the end with Zod and Jor-El was disappointing. His apparently honest contrition and regret for how things went down on Krypton did not mesh with how he acted once he met the shadow. (Of course, given that his goal had already escaped when he knifed Jor-El he could have just been lying about feeling bad, but that certainly wasn't the impression I got).

Zod does have two other people to listen to, shadow Jor-El, and Kal-El, who's entire purpose for existing is to act as this intermediary.

The fact that Zod didn't listen to these characters should be explained, does he have reasons to think that humans are a threat that the Els don't appreciate? Does Kal's natural birth make him such an anathema that Zod can't see him as a part of New Krypton? Did Jor-El violate even more taboos by making himself into an AI and Zod distrusts him?

muttonchop wrote:
Spoiler:

My understanding is that the new colonies failed because Krypton cut off all contact with them. They probably weren't fully self-sufficient yet.
Also, if there's only the one Codex and it is required to operate the nurseries, then without access to it the colonies would have died out unless they started making babies the old-fashioned way.

Spoiler:

The fact that they were called Outposts instead of colonies gave me the impression that these other places only had a couple hundred people and weren't self sufficient.

Also regarding the rest of "space" and sequels, villains, etc.

Spoiler:

The colonies thing is really interesting here. Future villains may not be like Lex Luthor and his love of real estate. Kandor might be out there. Brainiac might be out there. There is potential. But not if they want to go the Justice League route.

DSGamer wrote:

Also regarding the rest of "space" and sequels, villains, etc.

Spoiler:

The colonies thing is really interesting here. Future villains may not be like Lex Luthor and his love of real estate. Kandor might be out there. Brainiac might be out there. There is potential. But not if they want to go the Justice League route.

The fact that this movie was (trying) to be more about

Spoiler:

Ramifications on Earth when Superman is discovered makes me think that they won't keep going to space in subsequent movies. While sure, you'll have lots of "Humans first" people no matter what, in order for Kal-El to be isolated and alone he has to continue being the other. If a whole bunch of aliens keep coming out of the wood work then Superman stops being "The Alien" and starts looking more and more like any other white American, next to a bunch of ACTUAL weird aliens.

DSGamer wrote:

Also regarding the rest of "space" and sequels, villains, etc.

Future villains may not be like Lex Luthor and his love of real estate. Kandor might be out there. Brainiac might be out there. There is potential. But not if they want to go the Justice League route.

Yonder wrote:

If a whole bunch of aliens keep coming out of the wood work then Superman stops being "The Alien" and starts looking more and more like any other white American, next to a bunch of ACTUAL weird aliens.

Is there a law that says they have to continue the "outsider" theme? Also, forget Justice League, that's a larger project than The Avengers I think, just bring us the big three together. Or add Raven and Starfire and make it Teen Titans!
I do hope Kandor is out there somewhere. They will literally have to pay a tall supermodel to start lifting weights if they want to be in canon with Starfire.

Balthezor wrote:

Anyways, the "He's hot" joke was really out of place, tacky and quite lame. No one laughed in the theatre/ They made most of the movie with a serious edge and that's all they can come up with as a joke?

I don't think so. First, it's not really a joke, I didn't even know I was supposed to laugh. Notice how the movie goes along Supes gains the respect of the soldiers he fights besides? It's just showing us a potential light at the end of the tunnel. He's capable of being seen as normal. Also, he really is super hot, did you not see the part where he gets out of the water and steals some clothes?

Just watched it and I really enjoyed it.

Spoiler:
Convince the viewer that there actually is a chance for s happy ending before you take it all away.

At this point would any movie viewer really believe this type of thing? It is more believable that a guy that only cares on re-establishing Krypton gets right to business since he doesn't care for the people currently on Earth.

More stuff:

Spoiler:

1) I did not see any comments on the atmosphere stuff. Honestly, I liked it. I always hates the stupid Kryptonite thing. What were the chances of any Kryptonite ever being found on Earth? Wouldn't any Krypton tech (like his palace place) have traces of Kryptonite? I feel this was a bit more "believable"

2) Was it darker and joyless? I would say it was more serious. But serious in a good way, more grounded. It really establishes Clark's ground morality and his connection to his ideals.

3) When he had to kill Zod I still think he was upset because he had to kill. Could definitely be that he was possibly killing the other Kryptonian on Earth but hard to say.

4) Someone asked why Superman had to go to World Engine vice Zod's ship? I remember someone saying that if the ship was sent to the zone 1st the world engine could do a lot of damage to the planet.

5) Yeah, really loved the beginning and the back story scene.

Not sure why the critics gave it such low reviews. I'm going to check out the reviews linked here and come back.

I wonder how much of the criticism of the movie being "joyless" is because Marvel movies have set an expectation for superhero movies to be a humour-filled romp?

I found the movie was most interesting when it showed Superman's character and the world's reactions to him. I also liked the weight of the person-to-person combat, it really made them look powerful. Spaceship and airplane fights never appealed to me, so those were the parts I liked the least.

Regarding the World Engine:

Spoiler:

When they activated it, someone said something like "we are now slaved to the World Engine" just before the prison ship started doing its gravity field thing. When the engine was destroyed, the ship stopped terraforming too. The engine was driving the entire process, that's why Superman had to take it out.

Some folks may find this interesting. A real world company conducted damage estimates based on the battles in the movie. It was a pretty expensive dust up.

Ballotechnic wrote:

Some folks may find this interesting. A real world company conducted damage estimates based on the battles in the movie. It was a pretty expensive dust up.

except in movie world superman would help rebuild

I liked the movie, didn't love it. Thought it ran a bit long but worth it to see on the big screen.

The first problem I had was multiple flashback scenes that said the same thing. Clark gets pooped on multiple times and turn the other cheek. Once would have been enough.

The next problem was the source of his power

Spoiler:

Instead of the sun he gets his power from the atmosphere. However, he still has his powers in space where there is no atmosphere. Ok maybe he gets his powers from the sun and atmosphere. Problem with that he loses all his powers on the ship with alien atmosphere. He should still have sun power built up inside him. To continue this problem Zod and crew where complete battle armor along with helmets that protect them from Earths atmosphere, yet as soon as they step off their ship they are at full superman power level.

Then I had minor problems with the plot

Spoiler:

I can understand Zod. He thought he was in the right but what I didn't understand how could all the soldiers be ok with what he was doing. A few of them had to see the way Zod was acting was wrong. Not one asked why they couldn't just ask Clark to come with them to one of the outpost planets to transform it into a new home. Everyone wins. They could have taken Clark back home afterward. Of coarse that would have been a boring movie but I would had like to know why everybody was on board with Zod.

I liked the fight scenes. The acting was good. Some of the special effects were bad but most of them were good. Worth seeing just not a must see in my opinion.

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The Avengers were pretty cavalier about their act of genocide.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

The Avengers were pretty cavalier about their act of genocide.

Eh, if you attack someone you shouldn't whine about what they do to you in defending themselves.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

The next problem was the source of his power

Spoiler:

Instead of the sun he gets his power from the atmosphere. However, he still has his powers in space where there is no atmosphere. Ok maybe he gets his powers from the sun and atmosphere. Problem with that he loses all his powers on the ship with alien atmosphere. He should still have sun power built up inside him. To continue this problem Zod and crew where complete battle armor along with helmets that protect them from Earths atmosphere, yet as soon as they step off their ship they are at full superman power level.

Spoiler:

Did i miss something? because i thought they said multiple times his power was from the sun?

Yeah, I had a real problem with the way the Kryptonian superpower got turned on and off. As silly as Kryptonite is, you can get on board with it. It's a made-up mineral that ends in -ite. It's magic green space rocks. It does whatever the writers say it does. As long as they're reasonably consistent with it, it's fine.

When you say over and over that Supes is powered by the sun, and then take away his powers because of something in the atmosphere, it breaks my suspension of disbelief a lot more.

Kryptonian atmosphere contains Kryptonite particulates. Problem solved.

muttonchop wrote:

Kryptonian atmosphere contains Kryptonite particulates. Problem solved.

Except that it's not established anywhere in the canon of this movie that Kryptonite is a thing, let alone that trace amounts of it are present in the ship's atmosphere.

I know, but if magic green space-rocks make more sense to you than some completely unknown gaseous mixture, you might as well just pretend they're the same thing. I don't really see how it affects the story one way or another.

ranalin wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:

The next problem was the source of his power

Spoiler:

Instead of the sun he gets his power from the atmosphere. However, he still has his powers in space where there is no atmosphere. Ok maybe he gets his powers from the sun and atmosphere. Problem with that he loses all his powers on the ship with alien atmosphere. He should still have sun power built up inside him. To continue this problem Zod and crew where complete battle armor along with helmets that protect them from Earths atmosphere, yet as soon as they step off their ship they are at full superman power level.

Spoiler:

Did i miss something? because i thought they said multiple times his power was from the sun?

You added something because that was never said.

They said multiple times that his powers came from

Spoiler:

a combination of the younger sun, the more wholesome atmosphere, and the lower gravity.

My problem with the atmosphere is that Superman hangs out in space A LOT. The guy can obviously hold his breath for a long time. Do apparently that first whiff or two of Krypton was all it took.

muttonchop wrote:

I know, but if magic green space-rocks make more sense to you than some completely unknown gaseous mixture, you might as well just pretend they're the same thing. I don't really see how it affects the story one way or another.

It's a matter of internal consistency. I shouldn't have to pretend some fanwank crap that was never even hinted at for the film's story to make sense.

But I saw an article in EW magazine when I was at the dentist... and the director was bragging about how there was no kryptonite in this movie, and they didn't take that easy way out of making Superman weak.

Guess they just invented their own bullsh*t, that makes even less sense. Much better.

My opinion is that the invaders were pretty powerful in their armor without the atmosphere because they were using a combination of the sun and being from a planet with much higher gravity. Supes did not have the long life on Krypton but a lifetime soaking up rays. Looks like it kind of evened out.

As far as the other soldiers. They were BRED to be soldiers and follow orders. Why would they ever question Zod? Especially when the goal is to restore Krypton? In their eyes, what could be more right?

hbi2k wrote:
muttonchop wrote:

I know, but if magic green space-rocks make more sense to you than some completely unknown gaseous mixture, you might as well just pretend they're the same thing. I don't really see how it affects the story one way or another.

It's a matter of internal consistency. I shouldn't have to pretend some fanwank crap that was never even hinted at for the film's story to make sense.

The story makes sense, that one particular detail just isn't explained very well. I don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to enjoy a car chase.

They way I see it, there are two ways to approach an unexplained detail in a film.
1) "X wasn't explained, therefore X doesn't work."
2) "X wasn't explained. I wonder how it could work?"
I prefer option 2. I enjoy thought experiments more than I enjoy picking apart potential flaws.

muttonchop wrote:

I don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to enjoy a car chase.

Although, if a big part of the car chase was about how one car was 100x faster than all the other cars, and then that car stopped working, and then it got fixed, and then all the cars started driving 100x faster, then you'd want the movie to flesh out some of the mechanics a bit.

Thank you, Yonder.

A detailed explanation would have ultimately relied on either bad science (since Superman breaks just about every law of physics already) or more hand-waving and space magic. There's no satisfying answer for why the atmosphere suppressed his powers, because there's never been a satisfying answer for how any of his powers work, or why different flavours of kryptonite can do everything from killing him outright to turning him gay, or how all that kryptonite even wound up on Earth in the first place. Superman is the worst character for explanations.