Debt Ceiling Chicken

boogle wrote:

If I didn't think I would get shot, I would pie someone for this travesty.

I would gladly join you in that endeavor.

2.6 T dollars of Federal Debt of 14T overall is owned by the Social Security Trust Fund.
0T dollars of Federal Debt is owned by the Military Spending Trust Fund.

Yet they tell us that it is Social Security that needs cuts and not Military Spending.
What is wrong with our country?

2.6 T dollars of Federal Debt of 14T overall is owned by the Social Security Trust Fund.
0T dollars of Federal Debt is owned by the Military Spending Trust Fund.

Yet they tell us that it is Social Security that needs cuts and not Military Spending.
What is wrong with our country?

The Military will protect us from our creditors

goman wrote:

2.6 T dollars of Federal Debt of 14T overall is owned by the Social Security Trust Fund.
0T dollars of Federal Debt is owned by the Military Spending Trust Fund.

Yet they tell us that it is Social Security that needs cuts and not Military Spending.
What is wrong with our country?

We're the same country that bitches about spending $10,000 a year to educate our children but has no problem spending 3.5x that locking someone up. We have incredibly f*cked up priorities.

Yeah, but we're Tough On Crime (tm).

boogle wrote:

If I didn't think I would get shot, I would pie someone for this travesty.

I'll be your huckleberry...Not that it would accomplish much, but I do like me some tasty controversy pie!

OK, I think this whole situation has now pissed me off more than any political screwup I can recall.

gewy wrote:

OK, I think this whole situation has now pissed me off more than any political screwup I can recall.

We are at a straight-up "farce" point, as Boehner can't even win over his own party now.

2.6 T dollars of Federal Debt of 14T overall is owned by the Social Security Trust Fund.
0T dollars of Federal Debt is owned by the Military Spending Trust Fund.

You know, that's one of the few cases where the Trust Fund makes a damn difference. It doesn't change money flows at all, but at least it's a scorecard for how much money we stole from old people. And it may actually force the Treasury to pay them first, before operational expenses, because of the 14th Amendment.

It's not really an asset, but shockingly, it might actually be useful for something.

This whole situation is amazing... I imagine it will all work out in the end, but it's so weird watching the US like this.

IMAGE(http://lh4.ggpht.com/-wrN_XhX9h7g/Ti6yuCsxMlI/AAAAAAAACkY/4UZWzSDLVpw/%25255BUNSET%25255D.jpg)

Mex wrote:

This whole situation is amazing... I imagine it will all work out in the end, but it's so weird watching the US like this.

Now imagine living here and watching this sh*t.

OG_slinger wrote:
goman wrote:

2.6 T dollars of Federal Debt of 14T overall is owned by the Social Security Trust Fund.
0T dollars of Federal Debt is owned by the Military Spending Trust Fund.

Yet they tell us that it is Social Security that needs cuts and not Military Spending.
What is wrong with our country?

We're the same country that bitches about spending $10,000 a year to educate our children but has no problem spending 3.5x that locking someone up. We have incredibly f*cked up priorities.

:/
The US is #4 in the world spending an average of $6043 USD per primary school student (Denmark is #1 at $6713 USD).
The US is #3 in the world spending an average of $7764 USD per secondary school student (Switzerland is #1 at $9348 USD).
www.nationmaster.com

I can't find similar stats on prison costs, but a little research shows the US spends an average of 22k a year per prisoner (self reported) but the Canadians spend 5x that, or 70k for a minimum security prisoner, and 110k on a max security one, per year. Crime rates are similar between the two countries (80 per 1000 in the US (#8 worldwide), 75 per 1000 in Canada (#12 worldwide)).

Oh, the US also has one of the highest High School graduation rates, literacy rates, and top rated universities in the world, FWIW. I understand people want education to be better, we should have the best! However, to make it seem like education in the US is failing compared to the rest of the world, well, stats just don't support that. At it's worst, the US is significantly above average. Even our college graduation rate of 37% is pretty amazing.

Average years of schooling of adults 12 [1st of 100]
Duration of compulsory education 12 years [12th of 171]
Education spending (% of GDP) 5.7% [39th of 132]
Educational attainment > Tertiary 37% [2nd of 18]
Primary teacher salary > Starting $25,707.00 [5th of 22]
School life expectancy > Total 15.2 years [14th of 110]
Tertiary enrollment 72.6% [1st of 151]

edit: oops, I think Shoal was in the wrong thread. Deleting reply, moving it.

I think standards at both the high school and college level have gone down. Many colleges now teach on a level that high schools used to. So I'm not sure how meaningful graduation rates are.

DSGamer wrote:

I think standards at both the high school and college level have gone down. Many colleges now teach on a level that high schools used to. So I'm not sure how meaningful graduation rates are.

Do you have anything to back that up? AFAIK High Schools have gone from high level math being Algebra in the 50s, to teaching Calculus in the 80s/90s. Granted, it's not a required course in most schools, but even average students usually end their HS math with pre-calc. Below average at least study basic and advanced algebra, and geometry.

Shoal07 wrote:

I can't find similar stats on prison costs, but a little research shows the US spends an average of 22k a year per prisoner (self reported) but the Canadians spend 5x that, or 70k for a minimum security prisoner, and 110k on a max security one, per year. Crime rates are similar between the two countries (80 per 1000 in the US (#8 worldwide), 75 per 1000 in Canada (#12 worldwide)).

Crime rates might be similar, but incarceration rates are worlds apart. The US is #1 at 743 prisoners per 100K population, Canada is #123 at 117 prisoners per 100K population. It's this lower incarceration rate that leads to savings on prison spending, and yet similar outcomes in terms of crime rates.

nossid wrote:

As an outsider it's really weird watching a country commit suicide.

Even though I'm not an outsider, this is the line that's been going through my head all morning while listening to updates on the house and senate proposals. Thanks.

Shoal07 wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

I think standards at both the high school and college level have gone down. Many colleges now teach on a level that high schools used to. So I'm not sure how meaningful graduation rates are.

Do you have anything to back that up? AFAIK High Schools have gone from high level math being Algebra in the 50s, to teaching Calculus in the 80s/90s. Granted, it's not a required course in most schools, but even average students usually end their HS math with pre-calc. Below average at least study basic and advanced algebra, and geometry.

Well, for starters it's possible to graduate high school while being functionally illiterate. This comes up frequently with athletes that you'll have someone who is in college with a 3rd grade reading level and got promoted for reasons outside of education. Anecdotally my wife went to graduate school with students who couldn't spell and hand-wrote papers. It was so depressing how bad the program was that she dropped it.

Otherwise I swear I've read articles that showed the things many kids (not all, of course) learned in the past. Everything form Latin to Calculus. Schools have standardized to a degree that there is less variation across the country than there used to be, but if you talk to someone who went to school even 30 years ago they'll describe taking classes that sometimes you can't even get in college, depending on your university of choice.

DSGamer wrote:

I think standards at both the high school and college level have gone down. Many colleges now teach on a level that high schools used to. So I'm not sure how meaningful graduation rates are.

I can't speak to the college side of this statement but I can tell you it's absolutely not true at the elementary and high school levels. Last year as a sixth grade student my son was doing algebra. I didn't get near algebra until 9th grade and I graduated in 1984. His teacher used a 9th grade textbook for math. I'm not sure if I could have done algebra in 6th grade but my son had a 99.5 average.

What's f*cking up the school systems is the idea of inclusion. Everyone dumped into one classroom in some sort of feel good approach that the slower students will remain integrated and included. It's a nice idea but in reality it's an abject failure. My sons class has two "teacher's assistants" who basically play bouncer and sit on the students who could care less about learning. The end result is that the most gifted students aren't able to outpace everyone because we might hurt someones self esteem. It's utter bullsh*t.

Now our Superintendent, in the face of a $9M budget deficit, wants to build a "FOCUS" academy for the challenged students. No one seems to give a sh*t about the gifted students anymore......

Shoal07 wrote:

I can't find similar stats on prison costs, but a little research shows the US spends an average of 22k a year per prisoner (self reported) but the Canadians spend 5x that, or 70k for a minimum security prisoner, and 110k on a max security one, per year. Crime rates are similar between the two countries (80 per 1000 in the US (#8 worldwide), 75 per 1000 in Canada (#12 worldwide)).

Slightly meaningless unless you have the total prison population (or expressed on a per capita basis). Or what dysplastic said.

Shoal07 wrote:

Oh, the US also has one of the highest High School graduation rates, literacy rates, and top rated universities in the world, FWIW. I understand people want education to be better, we should have the best! However, to make it seem like education in the US is failing compared to the rest of the world, well, stats just don't support that. At it's worst, the US is significantly above average. Even our college graduation rate of 37% is pretty amazing.

Average years of schooling of adults 12 [1st of 100]
Duration of compulsory education 12 years [12th of 171]
Education spending (% of GDP) 5.7% [39th of 132]
Educational attainment > Tertiary 37% [2nd of 18]
Primary teacher salary > Starting $25,707.00 [5th of 22]
School life expectancy > Total 15.2 years [14th of 110]
Tertiary enrollment 72.6% [1st of 151]

US is ranked 15th(ish) among OECD countries for eduction IIRC. Sure, worldwide they are doing just peachy but it doesn't really make sense to compare the US to Malawi. What you want to know is why, for the money spent, are you not getting education performance equivalent to Finland.

Shoal07 wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

I think standards at both the high school and college level have gone down. Many colleges now teach on a level that high schools used to. So I'm not sure how meaningful graduation rates are.

Do you have anything to back that up? AFAIK High Schools have gone from high level math being Algebra in the 50s, to teaching Calculus in the 80s/90s. Granted, it's not a required course in most schools, but even average students usually end their HS math with pre-calc. Below average at least study basic and advanced algebra, and geometry.

Yes, there is lots of data to back that up.

Bear wrote:

What's f*cking up the school systems is the idea of inclusion. Everyone dumped into one classroom in some sort of feel good approach that the slower students will remain integrated and included. It's a nice idea but in reality it's an abject failure. My sons class has two "teacher's assistants" who basically play bouncer and sit on the students who could care less about learning. The end result is that the most gifted students aren't able to outpace everyone because we might hurt someones self esteem. It's utter bullsh*t.

In all fairness I am definitely going off of things I've read / experienced. My experience squares with what you're saying here. I took Algebra in 7th grade. This was back in like 1988, so not far off from you. However, what was actually taught was of questionable quality. Mostly because even though I was in TAG throughout school, honor society president, etc. I was always in the classroom with the worst students in the school. As a consequence when I got to college I felt like I had about 3 years of catching up to do.

What's f*cking up the school systems is the idea of inclusion. Everyone dumped into one classroom in some sort of feel good approach that the slower students will remain integrated and included. It's a nice idea but in reality it's an abject failure. My sons class has two "teacher's assistants" who basically play bouncer and sit on the students who could care less about learning. The end result is that the most gifted students aren't able to outpace everyone because we might hurt someones self esteem. It's utter bullsh*t.

I agree. Comparing the US education system to, say, Germany is a little like comparing apples to oranges - we are focused on raising the floor for everybody while most of the world is focused on raising the ceiling and moving the lower performers off to the trades. Of course you're going to have more high achievers in that kind of system.

We're in the wrong thread, here, folks... this is the Debt Ceiling one.

Malor wrote:

We're in the wrong thread, here, folks... this is the Debt Ceiling one.

Phew, thought I walked into the wrong thread for a second.

/internet social anxiety

Jolly Bill wrote:
Malor wrote:

We're in the wrong thread, here, folks... this is the Debt Ceiling one.

Phew, thought I walked into the wrong thread for a second.

/internet social anxiety

And you are not wearing pants!

Minase wrote:
What's f*cking up the school systems is the idea of inclusion. Everyone dumped into one classroom in some sort of feel good approach that the slower students will remain integrated and included. It's a nice idea but in reality it's an abject failure. My sons class has two "teacher's assistants" who basically play bouncer and sit on the students who could care less about learning. The end result is that the most gifted students aren't able to outpace everyone because we might hurt someones self esteem. It's utter bullsh*t.

I agree. Comparing the US education system to, say, Germany is a little like comparing apples to oranges - we are focused on raising the floor for everybody while most of the world is focused on raising the ceiling and moving the lower performers off to the trades. Of course you're going to have more high achievers in that kind of system.

And a lot of that has to do with the nature of school funding. In most of America, schools are funded through local property taxes. This results in rich neighborhoods like Montgomery, Fairfax, and Howard Counties being among the best in the nation while adjacent poor counties like Prince Georges end up with crap. There is a great deal of structural resistance to changing this because doing so would necessarily mean affecting property values. Make education funding a statewide decision and you will see property values in Clarksville or Bethesda plummet.

Looks like Boehner has a full on mutiny on his hands.