They see me rollin'
Baron Of Hell wrote:Don't forget that Sam lied to get Jon elected as head of the nights watch.
He didn't rig it. He convinced people to vote their bloc by letting them come to the wrong conclusions.
TiL Grenn is on the Board of Election Commissioners of Chicago.
How can we not see the three eyed raven as evil after what was done to Hodor? How is its power unclear? That bit had to have come from GRRM. It was soon after the current books. It wasn't in touch with a weirwood when that occurred. It was being carted away inside Bran.
Edit : Also, Bran (real Bran) made his father turn around in the past by calling out to him. Three eyes told him to STFU. It was plain he could manipulate people across time and space. This was before the big consciousness transfer.
Edit 2 : Also both Jojen and Bran are manipulated to bring them up north. They were sensed and pursued from all the way up there. This is the manner of succession, and it shows this power to get in people's heads.
How can we not see the three eyed raven as evil after what was done to Hodor? How is its power unclear? That bit had to have come from GRRM. It was soon after the current books. It wasn't in touch with a weirwood when that occurred. It was being carted away inside Bran.
The Three Eyed Raven essentially flipped the switch on a massive trolley problem. Sacrificing Hodor was part of saving Westeros. I wouldn't necessarily say that's perfectly good, but I wouldn't call it evil.
LouZiffer wrote:How can we not see the three eyed raven as evil after what was done to Hodor? How is its power unclear? That bit had to have come from GRRM. It was soon after the current books. It wasn't in touch with a weirwood when that occurred. It was being carted away inside Bran.
The Three Eyed Raven essentially flipped the switch on a massive trolley problem. Sacrificing Hodor was part of saving Westeros. I wouldn't necessarily say that's perfectly good, but I wouldn't call it evil.
Tyrion's speech about success and how it can twist one's idea of Good is something to consider. It's included in the final episode to address exactly this. How many died so that Westeros could go back to essentially being ruled by the old gods?
(Or do we think the destruction of the temple of the seven was another happy coincidence in a huge list of them?)
It’s a TV show. Like all art, sometimes you love it, sometimes you don’t. [...]
In short, I think it’s okay to like a thing and to grow to dislike a thing and still be interested.
That's cool, and I hope I didn't come across as wanting to suppress any opinions. When I see relentless negativity, I start to wonder where is that coming from. This isn't the Happy Westeros Worship Topic, but neither is it the David and Dan are the Embodiment of Evil topic. At some point it starts to look like trying to show that a positive opinion is somehow wrong, especially if that's a minority view.
I did appreciate Middcore's link to the Ringer article describing how scenes from earlier seasons were improved by the series' conclusion. Some interesting callbacks there that I had missed despite rewatching the whole series leading up to the finale!
I'm interested in the next week's retrospectives that will be coming out across the various "Game of King Chairs" podcasts. Anybody have some I should absolutely check out before this all goes away?
How can we not see the three eyed raven as evil after what was done to Hodor? How is its power unclear? That bit had to have come from GRRM. It was soon after the current books. It wasn't in touch with a weirwood when that occurred. It was being carted away inside Bran.
Edit : Also, Bran (real Bran) made his father turn around in the past by calling out to him. Three eyes told him to STFU. It was plain he could manipulate people across time and space. This was before the big consciousness transfer.
Edit 2 : Also both Jojen and Bran are manipulated to bring them up north. They were sensed and pursued from all the way up there. This is the manner of succession, and it shows this power to get in people's heads.
This is why Bran's rule will be absolute. "Do what I say, or I'll Hodor your ass."
I've wondered if there was a less bloody path available until (which is a weird word to say if we're talking about time travel, but) Bran screwed up and got the mark of the Night King on him. That what we saw was the least worst timeline that was possible given Bran had to flee before he was truly ready (IIRC) to be the Three Eyed Raven. (although if I also recall correctly, the old 3ER seemed to know something was up and let it happen, so...)
It wouldn't be out of line with GRRM's tropebustin': usually heroes can make mistakes especially when it comes to leaving their training too early, but those mistakes make them what they are and actually they're even more heroic and save even more of the day. It would be like Luke leaving Yoda too soon, but instead of it working out just fine, ten more planets get blown up by the Death Star.
What really makes me think that is the conversation between the Starks in the Godswood, when Jon is considering revealing his secret to Sansa and Arya, and Bran says "It's your choice." It's a curious thing for him to say. Like that was a fork in the road of time where one direction was as good as another.
r013nt0 wrote:jrralls wrote:Nevin73 wrote:Also Rome. Without Rome there would have been no GoT.
As much as I love Rome (it’s on my top ten tv shows of all time list) it just was never popular enough to be like GoT.
Rome might be my favorite show of all time. But they had to cram *everything* into the 2nd season. I really wonder what might have been...
My point was that Rome helped lay the groundwork in depicting sex, violence, and historical detail that infused a lot of GoT. Sadly, no, it was never as popular.
"It is known." Were there any other early-years-GoT memes like that flared up briefly and then flickered out?
Everyone who said that died.
I remember a lot of "Stupid Ned Stark" memes, but I think that ended about when his head went bouncing down the steps.
One criticism I’ve heard that I can’t abide by is the idea that the Night’s Watch shouldn’t exist now that the Night King is gone and the wildlings are allies. You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
One criticism I’ve heard that I can’t abide by is the idea that the Night’s Watch shouldn’t exist now that the Night King is gone and the wildlings are allies. You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
In a post-Night King world, the Night's Watch is the Westerosi version of the Army Corps of Engineers. They shall serve building many public works projects.
Also it's the Westeros prison system.
One criticism I’ve heard that I can’t abide by is the idea that the Night’s Watch shouldn’t exist now that the Night King is gone and the wildlings are allies. You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
Well, in the case of an ordinary army of a state (or fiefdom or whatever in GoT) I'd agree.
However, the Night's Watch is not an ordinary army, it's an anomaly in the feudal setting of Westeros because it's not anybody's bannermen. It's supposed to be loyal to the realm as a whole in that it exists to protect the realm from a couple of specific external threats. Now both of those specific threats are eliminated, and in a feudal system being loyal to everybody might look, in the eyes of some paranoid lords, pretty much the same as being loyal to nobody.
A possible comparison in real-world history is what happened to the Knights Templar. They were supposed to protect the Christian kingdoms and pilgrims to the Holy Land during the crusades. With the fall of the Christian kingdoms, in spite of a long period of abortive new crusades or rumblings about new crusades, the Templars were at loose ends without an enemy to fight or obvious purpose. The King of France saw a powerful private army with their own castles within his domains... a powerful private army he also happened to be heavily indebted to... and shrewdly decided to eliminate this potential threat by framing the Templar Order for being an evil gay satanic cult.
Now fortunately for the Night's Watch, they probably aren't powerful enough at the beginning of the reign of King Bran the Broken for anybody to view them as a looming threat the way the Templars were viewed. We know the Great Houses had sent fewer and fewer men to the Watch in the years before the War of the Five Kings and most of their castles along the wall had fallen into disrepair and been abandoned, and then the Watch's losses to White Walker and wildling attacks during the show were severe.
All this to say it isn't that the Night's Watch has no current reason to exist, it's that they have no obvious potential reason to exist unless it's to be co-opted by one faction or another in some inevitable future Westerosi war... assuming anybody bothers to send enough ne'er-do-wells to the wall that they rebuild to the point even it's worth it for anybody to seek their support.
You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
The thing is that there's not much of the Night's Watch left to dismantle. They don't have the manpower to field a softball team, let alone an army.
"It is known." Were there any other early-years-GoT memes like that flared up briefly and then flickered out?
Some that come to mind:
Breastplate Stretcher and related Bobby B memes
All the f*cking chickens
Joffery slaps
Stannis the Mannis
f*ck Olly
Middcore wrote:"It is known." Were there any other early-years-GoT memes like that flared up briefly and then flickered out?
Some that come to mind:
Breastplate Stretcher and related Bobby B memes
All the f*cking chickens
Joffery slaps
Stannis the Mannis
f*ck Olly
Man I had totally forgotten breastplate stretcher until I saw a reference to it like a week ago. I didn't remember the bit on the show and I somehow never saw any of the memes.
Blind_Evil wrote:You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
The thing is that there's not much of the Night's Watch left to dismantle. They don't have the manpower to field a softball team, let alone an army.
I would surmise they’ll get at least 50 or so men, which would bring them roughly to where they were when the novels began.
My mention of an army was more a metaphor for a force that serves a purpose.
Blind_Evil wrote:You don’t dismantle an army simply because the current threat has been eliminated. Right?
The thing is that there's not much of the Night's Watch left to dismantle. They don't have the manpower to field a softball team, let alone an army.
I guess it could be loosely argued that the NW still exists to protect the 7 kingdoms from the wildlings, but at this point the wildlings don't want anything to do with those assholes south of the wall, and a much bigger threat would be Queen Sansa of the North. It's a bit of a penal colony, but even that is just setting up a horrible future problem. The NW only worked as a penal colony because the wildlings and the army of the dead both kept them constantly occupied, and kept their numbers low. Without external threats, sending criminals and outcasts to the NW will eventually turn it into an army of undesirables which, given enough time, will likely become the next external threat to the 7 kingdoms.
Either the kingdoms south of the wall don't know for sure that all threats from the north have ended (I sure as hell wouldn't chance it based on what came down from there!) -or- they do know that there are other potential threats. Take your pick. Those are what I consider the logical things to conclude since these kingdoms/houses aren't exactly show-watchers.
If it's the former and things are safe, Bran probably knows. However, he can send a threat away, have someone to further his goals up there, AND keep the north as well as others afraid for a while of threats that won't come. Win-win-win.
The Night King is gone...for now. He and the Three Eyed Raven duel over and over again throughout history. If they disband the Night's Watch now, future generations will have no clue of the coming threat. It's even in their name, but no one realized it at first.
Also it's the Westeros prison system.
Werd. From the start of the show, most of Westeros didn't take the threats the NW was supposed to be protecting against seriously. They didn't disband it in the thousands of years previously, why do so now?
Best season 8 summary I’ve seen so far.
Yeah that pretty much nails it.
Well, thanks for 6 great seasons of TV, GoT.
The documentary, The Last Watch, aired if you want a behind the scenes look. It can be skipped in my opinion.
The documentary, The Last Watch, aired if you want a behind the scenes look. It can be skipped in my opinion.
Yeah, wasn't that great in my opinion.
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