"A Game of Thrones" Spoiler-Ridden Catch-All of Doom - books and HBO show

Hey Fed. Finally another common ground for us. HIMYM. Man...

All of y’all saying Dany couldn’t have become what she became bc she did nice things for people... y’all weren’t raised by narcissists and it shows

Sorry, another Twitter thread. I'm not much of an active watcher, so it's really helpful to have this spelled out. I'm still not decided on how successful the heel turn was.

Delbin wrote:

I'm still not decided on how successful the heel turn was.

I'm of the mind to wait for the next episode to see if they try to address that, which they probably will when Jon confronts her. It also reminds me of the pratfall with serialized television working on a one episode a week schedule in a social media environment that allows for instant and constant second guessing and critique.

There were a few seasons of Angel (3+4) that worked much better when binged rather that waiting a week in between. So there could be some of that with GoT. Something where there is a week long gap between scenes that were supposed to happen an hour or less later.

There are definitely shows that work better with binge-watching.

The chief failure of the execution of Daenerys' decision-making is...that they didn't show any decision-making. That is, there was no interiority at the moment of the decision. If they spend some time next week on her justification, that'll help.

Like, the general idea that she'd destroy King's Landing had been discussed since she landed in Westeros. It wouldn't even be the first time that the city has been sacked on the show. People have been trying to persuade her to not do that. The writing failure isn't in the plot, it's that we've got A and B but we didn't get the connection from A-to-B. She's got plenty of reasons to burn the place, but as far as we're concerned none of them apply at the moment because they were presented earlier and argued out of--so we have no idea why. It would have been easy to demonstrate with a slightly different staging, but apparently not with these writers.

Will they bring it in for a landing? They might, yet. I think they needed either a bit more breathing room or better plotting (because episode 4 didn't do much and episode 1 had a lot of slack time). And they leaned a bit too much fan service plot manipulations.

I mean, the bar for terrible final episodes is pretty low: will it be better than Battlestar Galactica's ending? Quantum Leap? Star Trek: Enterprise? Heroes? How I Met Your Mother? Merlin? Lost?

The most satisfying ending for me

Spoiler:

is one where neither Jon nor Dany get the Iron Throne. In fact, the Iron Throne is ultimately symbolically responsible for all of the suffering that all of the characters have gone through. Every loss and tragedy that they've experienced can be traced back to the eponymous Game of Thrones. Melt the thing down and break the wheel.

Mind you, it'll still be a clumsy season, mostly because the foundation in season seven was weak and season eight was rushed and slapdash and crammed in too many irrelevant things (why did they spend all that time on Euron? Why can't they establish clear character motivations? Why don't they know how to create a sense of inevitable tragedy? Why can't they write about battle tactics to save their lives?). But it had some bits that were very pretty.

Gremlin wrote:

The most satisfying ending for me

Spoiler:

is one where neither Jon nor Dany get the Iron Throne. In fact, the Iron Throne is ultimately symbolically responsible for all of the suffering that all of the characters have gone through. Every loss and tragedy that they've experienced can be traced back to the eponymous Game of Thrones. Melt the thing down and break the wheel.

Mind you, it'll still be a clumsy season, mostly because the foundation in season seven was weak and season eight was rushed and slapdash and crammed in too many irrelevant things (why did they spend all that time on Euron? Why can't they establish clear character motivations? Why don't they know how to create a sense of inevitable tragedy? Why can't they write about battle tactics to save their lives?). But it had some bits that were very pretty.

Spoiler:

Melt Iron Throne, pour molten iron on Dany's head.

*Legion* wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

The most satisfying ending for me

Spoiler:

is one where neither Jon nor Dany get the Iron Throne. In fact, the Iron Throne is ultimately symbolically responsible for all of the suffering that all of the characters have gone through. Every loss and tragedy that they've experienced can be traced back to the eponymous Game of Thrones. Melt the thing down and break the wheel.

Mind you, it'll still be a clumsy season, mostly because the foundation in season seven was weak and season eight was rushed and slapdash and crammed in too many irrelevant things (why did they spend all that time on Euron? Why can't they establish clear character motivations? Why don't they know how to create a sense of inevitable tragedy? Why can't they write about battle tactics to save their lives?). But it had some bits that were very pretty.

Spoiler:

Melt Iron Throne, pour molten iron on Dany's head.

Oh snap. That would make for a hell of an ending.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/V5tYd49.jpg)

LouZiffer wrote:
Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/V5tYd49.jpg)

Love Sansa looking at the camera like, "You seeing this?"

So like most people, this season has really been falling flat for me, for all of the reasons that have been discussed. Probably the biggest disappointment was the resolution of Jamie Lannister's arc, which seems to have unraveled all the work that came before it. However, I really loved this video. It showed how complex and multi-dimensional the character was, and the extraordinary work done by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in this performance. It also highlights the parallels between Jon Snow and Jamie Lannister, recognizing that Jon is now in the exact same position Jamie was in when he ran his sword through Aerys Targaryen's back.

The video helped me realize that as much as I suspect that this season will come to be viewed as a tremendous misstep, it doesn't really unravel all of the incredible moments that made up this lumpy, flawed, but always ambitious show. I wish they'd given the last season more time to breathe, spent more time earning the moments they've been in a rush to jam down our throat. But I'll never forget Jamie in the bath, gasping out for Brienne to call him by his name, or Tywin talking to Arya about legacy, or Syrio Forel standing like a boss against armored foes armed only with a wooden sword. This is the show that gave us Hardhome, and Grenn chanting the Night's Watch oath as a giant charged down on him, and Hodor's tragic beginning/end. It's a deeply, deeply flawed show, and I don't have any expectation that the finale will wave a magic wand and fix all of the warts. But damn, I'm so glad this show exists, and it's going to be one I come back to again and again.

Trichy, that's exactly how I feel about the show, too. Thank you for putting it so well.

trichy wrote:

Just realized they make a Dunk and Egg reference in the show.

Atras wrote:

Trichy, that's exactly how I feel about the show, too. Thank you for putting it so well.

I feel almost the opposite as far as the relationship of the ending to the rest of the show, but I am glad not everyone does. I hope as few people feel the way I do about the show as possible. I hope it still continues to bring as much joy as possible to as many people as possible. : )

I've referred to this a lot. Probably so much that people are sick of it, but Jaime's arc and its twists/turns make complete sense to me. From Bran's PoV he was still incredibly dangerous and not worth keeping around once the Night King was destroyed. He'd struggle to do the right thing for a while, but never actually addressed the things he had done in any meaningful way that led to an ability to forgive himself and drop them. This led to his cycling back again and again without any real growth.

How much was Bran's influence? Probably very little until Jaime was up north, but then Bran forced him to face himself repeatedly. Jaime failed to find a way to grow past it.

Edit: The Three-eyed Crow/Raven (pre-Bran) is another matter though. Jaime was at the center of a lot of pivotal events and participated in them, so I'm pretty sure there was some influence there.

So, Bran is causing D&D to write poorly?

I read the potential leaks for episode 6. And while I won't spoil anything, it sounds terrible. Just an utterly idiotic way to end a great series.

garion333 wrote:

So, Bran is causing D&D to write poorly?

Kind of, yeah. It's not a traditional story with traditional characters, and there's a lot even in the books which goes unsaid since there is no narrator - it's all points of view with their inherent flaws. The characters are also treated as real people who change rarely and don't have traditional arcs. Add having them manipulated through a magic time traveling tree network, and there's so much going on that it's easy to get caught up in expectations.

By the way, if there is no big reveal which shows what's been going on the whole time - or at least does better than hinting at it repeatedly (as has been done) I'll be a bit disappointed at that. Until it's over I'm reserving judgement.

LouZiffer wrote:

I've referred to this a lot. Probably so much that people are sick of it, but Jaime's arc and its twists/turns make complete sense to me. From Bran's PoV he was still incredibly dangerous and not worth keeping around once the Night King was destroyed. He'd struggle to do the right thing for a while, but never actually addressed the things he had done in any meaningful way that led to an ability to forgive himself and drop them. This led to his cycling back again and again without any real growth.

How much was Bran's influence? Probably very little until Jaime was up north, but then Bran forced him to face himself repeatedly. Jaime failed to find a way to grow past it.

Edit: The Three-eyed Crow/Raven (pre-Bran) is another matter though. Jaime was at the center of a lot of pivotal events and participated in them, so I'm pretty sure there was some influence there.

This is "A wizard did it" but for character development. "His actions don't make sense? His motivations are muddled? No matter, because he never actually had agency at all."

Middcore wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

I've referred to this a lot. Probably so much that people are sick of it, but Jaime's arc and its twists/turns make complete sense to me. From Bran's PoV he was still incredibly dangerous and not worth keeping around once the Night King was destroyed. He'd struggle to do the right thing for a while, but never actually addressed the things he had done in any meaningful way that led to an ability to forgive himself and drop them. This led to his cycling back again and again without any real growth.

How much was Bran's influence? Probably very little until Jaime was up north, but then Bran forced him to face himself repeatedly. Jaime failed to find a way to grow past it.

Edit: The Three-eyed Crow/Raven (pre-Bran) is another matter though. Jaime was at the center of a lot of pivotal events and participated in them, so I'm pretty sure there was some influence there.

This is "A wizard did it" but for character development. "His actions don't make sense? His motivations are muddled? No matter, because he never actually had agency at all."

I didn't think his motivations were muddled at all. Drunk Jaime tried to run away from who he found himself to be for the umpteenth time, and sober Jaime woke up to find that running changes nothing. Bran physically placed himself where he was visible, and spoke just enough to let Jaime know the sh*t hanging over his head wasn't going away. He didn't need to do wizardly things there. Just be in the right places at the right times. (though he probably saw the outcomes)

Edit: I don't blame anyone for forgetting that we're not supposed to like a guy who would kill children and rape his sister. It's a long story. I like to look for redemption too.

Except that the point of losing his sword hand for a master sword fighter was supposed to be an arc for him, redemption or not. I still feel he had his redemption and he like Tyrion wants to drag Cersei kicking and screaming to her humanity.

fangblackbone wrote:

Except that the point of losing his sword hand for a master sword fighter was supposed to be an arc for him, redemption or not. I still feel he had his redemption and he like Tyrion wants to drag Cersei kicking and screaming to her humanity.

That's a really good way to think about it. Maybe since he can't escape who he is, going back is his choice to deal with it.

After 7 years of growth and development of Jaime and decline of Cersei and the division that came between them, that absolutely the dumbest and most idiotic ending to two awesome story arcs I have ever witnessed in my life.

I honestly can't believe how piss poor this season has been so far. It's like someone came and knocked D&D in the heads and they lost all their senses.

They've spent a lot of time shuffling around the pieces to get their awesome cool scenes and not enough on the quiet moment that help build towards those setpieces.

This is evident in that even now we don't really have a good read on Jamie's motivations: we've got the stuff he said, but that contradicts itself a bit and anyway this is a show that could once do nuance in character motivation while keeping things clear, and that resolution was not very clear.

I believe the 3ER is an evil character created by the Children of the Forest (OR hes the Lord of Light) to destroy not only the Night King but the entirety of humankind, and he's the grandmaster at playing chess. He's gone back through the past and manipulated people into doing things that makes Westeros the way it is today (Including making Aerys Targaryen go mad) Everything has to happen in a certain way to set up his next play. (Example. giving Arya the Valyrian Dagger). His most recent play has been doing everything to manipulate Dany into going Mad and burning down Kings Landing. Which will cause all the other lords to revolt against her. Problem is he underestimated Dany and instead of burning down Kings Landing she was headed for the Red Keep so the 3ER warged into Drogon and did it himself. (Dany's eyes are LOCKED onto the Red Keep when she takes off and shes beelineing it for it for quite awhile. Its only after we see the identical scene of Brans vision from an earlier season of Drogon's shadow flying over King's Landing that Drogon changes directions and starts lighting everyone up. They dont show a close up of Dany again after that.)

I'm not sure what will happen in the last episode, but I do believe either Sansa or Tyrion or maybe both figure out the truth about Bran/3ER because Dany will tell Tyrion she lost control of Drogon.

And remember that private conversation the 3ER and Tyrion had? Something they discussed will stand out to Tyrion once he learns Dany wasnt controlling Drogon.

Better ending than Dany pulling an Anakin Skywalker...

I mean think about it. The entire series has played out like a chess match among the different characters. Everything GRRM writes has a meaning behind it that later plays out in a huge way. And apparently the show IS doing GRRM ending.

Interesting reddit post.

Someone gave me a copy of Fire and Blood for Christmas and I finally decided to take it to work to read on breaks. The baby won’t let me read at home.

And y’know? George has still got it.

Blind_Evil wrote:

Someone gave me a copy of Fire and Blood for Christmas and I finally decided to take it to work to read on breaks. The baby won’t let me read at home.

And y’know? George has still got it.

My theory is that he still loves the world of a song of ice and fire very much, but has a great reluctance / fear /writers block in tying up all the loose ends for all of the characters he created. But writing the histories essentially allows him to do a series of short tales; what’s the longest story arc of them 30 pages?

So me and my mum spent the day watching the last 3 episodes (we had watched the first 2 on Tuesday night) and although it's not the best season, I really don't think it's as terrible as people are making it out. Possibly because everyone had told me how terrible it was before I'd seen it. My main compliant would be the conclusion of Jamie's story.
I'm not even sure you would call the raising of King's Landing a heel turn, she was always heading in that direction, it's just in the past she had people to bring her back from the edge. That twitter thread points all this out better than I can. It's not even in the same league of out of character actions as Season 5 of The Wire turned up.

onewild wrote:

So me and my mum spent the day watching the last 3 episodes (we had watched the first 2 on Tuesday night) and although it's not the best season, I really don't think it's as terrible as people are making it out. Possibly because everyone had told me how terrible it was before I'd seen it. My main compliant would be the conclusion of Jamie's story.
I'm not even sure you would call the raising of King's Landing a heel turn, she was always heading in that direction, it's just in the past she had people to bring her back from the edge. That twitter thread points all this out better than I can. It's not even in the same league of out of character actions as Season 5 of The Wire turned up.

Speaking of comparing it to other final seasons.

Final season ratings from IMDb in graph

While we're talking shows going off the deep end in the last season... True Blood. Aieee.

Dexter with a more severe drop than GoT. I don't think people realize how much worse this could be