Windows 8

should I upgrade?

You have to spend money, and run the risk of disruption, you don't gain much, and everything you do gain comes with GIANT strings attached.

Malor wrote:
should I upgrade?

You have to spend money, and run the risk of disruption, you don't gain much, and everything you do gain comes with GIANT strings attached.

Ignore the FUD. There are no strings. Windows 8 is pretty much like Mac OS X now. There are optional storefronts built into each OS where you can if you choose purchase software that your OS Manufacture gets a cut of and has some measure of control over who gets to publish to that store. You can continue to buy and install software in every single other "traditional" fashion. There are also built in Media stores like iTunes now on Windows. Again you can choose to buy from them or not.

There is an optional touch screen friendly "overlay" to the OS with about 30 seconds of effort you can remove and never see if you are more comfortable with a more traditional Windows 7 Desktop.

Scratched wrote:

I guess what it comes down to (at least for me) is that there's a lack of 'killer feature' that makes me say "OMFG you must get this version of windows over that over version".

Going back to previous versions you could to a greater extent: XP versus 9x/2k you certainly could, Vista versus XP you could to a lesser extent (there were advances) and Win7 versus everything previous you certainly could. Win8 if you don't make use of the new directions they're going in is a hard sell for me.

The only versions of Windows I'll recommend to the average user so far is XP and 7 as they're solid OS's, Vista was a piece of sh**.

I would recommend Windows 8 to anyone using a laptop, as it boots in under 20 seconds, the metro screen gives you quick access to your mail/twitter app/facebook/ebay/web browser etc.
Best as I can describe the Windows 8 metro screen is like using a phone (andriod or ios). There's icons to all your apps and there's an app store to get more.

I don't know how stable an OS Win8 is but so far I have had no issues what so ever, I've never needed to reboot, its never crashed but it's still too soon to say for sure.

May be the "killer feature" for me is the boot time - I used a Win 7 laptop yesterday and that's when I appreciated just how good a quick boot time is.

Scratched wrote:

I guess what it comes down to (at least for me) is that there's a lack of 'killer feature' that makes me say "OMFG you must get this version of windows over that over version".

Going back to previous versions you could to a greater extent: XP versus 9x/2k you certainly could, Vista versus XP you could to a lesser extent (there were advances) and Win7 versus everything previous you certainly could. Win8 if you don't make use of the new directions they're going in is a hard sell for me.

Agreed... unless you are running a Touch Screen Laptop and/or Convertible Laptop (Tablet form) there isnt a hugely compelling reason to go to Windows 8 on the desktop. Windows 7 works just fine and has the luxury of several years of patches. Hyperbole aside thats pretty much the bottom line. If my desktop came pre-installed with Windows 8 I would be fine.. as well if I'm running Windows 7 right now on my desktop I would be fine.

I guess what it comes down to (at least for me) is that there's a lack of 'killer feature' that makes me say "OMFG you must get this version of windows over that other version".

Going back to previous versions you could to a greater extent: XP versus 9x/2k you certainly could, Vista versus XP you could to a lesser extent (there were advances) and Win7 versus everything previous you certainly could. Win8 if you don't make use of the new directions they're going in is a hard sell for me.

edit: spellin

For the audio inclined, Windows 8 offers marked improvement in low-latency audio functionality. The price you pay is 'early adopter's fee' - which is to say that some software companies are slow on the uptake for full support (I'm looking at YOU, AVID.) I'm a longtime Mac user, and use Windows at work. I LOVE my Surface and will likely buy a W8 machine as my next major PC purchase, shifting all of my audio over to Windows. I can't believe I just wrote that...

Are you talking about WASAPI drivers versus ASIO? Or that Windows 8 is better about DPC latency?

Symbiotic wrote:

For the audio inclined, Windows 8 offers marked improvement in low-latency audio functionality. The price you pay is 'early adopter's fee' - which is to say that some software companies are slow on the uptake for full support (I'm looking at YOU, AVID.) I'm a longtime Mac user, and use Windows at work. I LOVE my Surface and will likely buy a W8 machine as my next major PC purchase, shifting all of my audio over to Windows. I can't believe I just wrote that...

May be you can't believe it, but you'll be believing it when you buy your next machine which isn't a Mac for the fraction of the price for the same performance - or the same price as a Mac for double/triple/quadruple the performance.

I've always wanted to try OSX out and buy a Mac, but I'm not a millionaire so I cannot justify paying the price - but this is a Windows thread so who cares haha

LiquidMantis wrote:

Are you talking about WASAPI drivers versus ASIO? Or that Windows 8 is better about DPC latency?

Here are some more concrete details: http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a...

Symbiotic wrote:
LiquidMantis wrote:

Are you talking about WASAPI drivers versus ASIO? Or that Windows 8 is better about DPC latency?

Here are some more concrete details: http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a...

Ah, thanks for that clarification. They're basically saying that there are performance gains for people producing music and that WASAPI Esclusive mode will be made available to Metro apps. It's not really a big deal to people who currently use WASAPI exclusive mode in W7 (Like me with JRiver).

Anyways, sounds like an improvement for music producers.

Wow, I didn't even notice that I actually got a double click in there. Usually I know right away if I twitched and caused a double post.

Ignore the FUD

It's not FUD. The stuff in Win8 that's actually kind of interesting, featurewise, is locked down; to whatever degree you use those features, to that degree you lose control over your own computer.

Yes, it's mostly optional, but not all of it is. You can defeat some of it by taking fairly extreme measures. But you shouldn't have to.

And, if you avoid the brain-damaged parts of Win8, you just have Win7 anyway. But that's already installed and running; it's already paid for, and it's already troubleshot.

edit: nevermind.

Malor wrote:
Ignore the FUD

It's not FUD. The stuff in Win8 that's actually kind of interesting, featurewise, is locked down; to whatever degree you use those features, to that degree you lose control over your own computer.

Yes, it's mostly optional, but not all of it is. You can defeat some of it by taking fairly extreme measures. But you shouldn't have to.

And, if you avoid the brain-damaged parts of Win8, you just have Win7 anyway. But that's already installed and running; it's already paid for, and it's already troubleshot.

What parts are locked down, I've been using Win8 since retail launch day, and I've been able to do everything I wanted to do, is there something specific you've had problems with?

What do you mean by "You can defeat some of it by taking fairly extreme measures."? Can you be more specific on that?

I'm not trying to interrogate you, I'm genuinely interesting in learning about the OS's flaws/troubles, as I am the guy people come to in my family/friends/workplace to get answers to computer woes. And also, you might be trying to do something I may want to do at some point, at least I'll have a heads up.

What parts are locked down

Everything in Metro. You cannot use Metro mode except with programs that have paid toll to Microsoft. You can't make and sell Metro apps unless you do so through Microsoft. You can't use most of the features and functionality of a desktop computer if you program for Metro mode; nearly all Metro apps are cut off from most of the OS functionality, and cannot do what desktop apps can.

Anytime, in other words, you want to do anything in Metro, you have to have permission to run the program. And that permission can be revoked anytime Microsoft wants. Their model prevents many interesting classes of programs altogether, and anything disruptive to Microsoft or its business model or the business models of its corporate friends will simply not be allowed into the Metro market.

What do you mean by "You can defeat some of it by taking fairly extreme measures."? Can you be more specific on that?

You can sorta kinda disable Metro, and sorta kinda ignore it, by installing other shell programs, but you should not have to. Microsoft provides no way to turn Metro off natively, but you can, at least for now, sort of defeat it, but then you just have Win7 anyway. That may not always be true. Microsoft could easily disable that program from working with an update, if they chose. They may not do so, to avoid negative publicity, but they certainly can.

I would have no argument with Metro if it A) weren't locked down, and B) weren't forced on desktops. But it's both, and installing it on your PC is a major step away from the freedom that we've all become so dependent on. Everything you're doing right now is based on that free market and ability to write free software; there would be no Gamers With Jobs without it. And Metro is a major assault on that freedom.

Microsoft is hoping you don't care, that you'd rather have some shiny glass beads than Manhattan. An awful lot of iOS people, after all, have taken that deal.

Malor wrote:

Everything in Metro. You cannot use Metro mode except with programs that have paid toll to Microsoft. You can't make and sell Metro apps unless you do so through Microsoft. You can't use most of the features and functionality of a desktop computer if you program for Metro mode; nearly all Metro apps are cut off from most of the OS functionality, and cannot do what desktop apps can.

Anytime, in other words, you want to do anything in Metro, you have to have permission to run the program. And that permission can be revoked anytime Microsoft wants. Their model prevents many interesting classes of programs altogether, and anything disruptive to Microsoft or its business model or the business models of its corporate friends will simply not be allowed into the Metro market.

I haven't really noticed the problem other than, IE10/11 or whatever it is has the "Metro" view and looks cool, but Google are saying that Chrome won't be like that because of what you mentioned above - which is a shame, and I do agree with you on that point.

You can sorta kinda disable Metro, and sorta kinda ignore it, by installing other shell programs, but you should not have to. Microsoft provides no way to turn Metro off natively, but you can, at least for now, sort of defeat it, but then you just have Win7 anyway. That may not always be true. Microsoft could easily disable that program from working with an update, if they chose. They may not do so, to avoid negative publicity, but they certainly can.

I would have no argument with Metro if it A) weren't locked down, and B) weren't forced on desktops

I have installed ClassicShell on my laptop, only to add the start button back to the desktop, I didn't disable the Metro screen but you can with that program. I know I shouldn't have HAD to install a program to do that, but that was my choice, my freedom to do so, and the OS didn't put up any kind of fight and I've had no problems with it what so ever.

Microsoft have designed their front screen GUI the way they wanted it, which is fine, there's always the option to change things around - remember the XP skin modding tools? I've even managed to add custom tiles to launch steam games;
IMAGE(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/dissposablehero/Desktop_zps308afa01.jpg)

(I whited out a couple of tiles with pictures on, its not an error haha)

I think more Metro customisation/unlocking will come with time, when the good Windows pros get around it. I am liking the feel of it so far on my lappy, but I'm gonna hold off installing it on my PC.

Whether or not proper 3rd party Metro apps come out, i don't know, I hope Microsoft don't close their OS down fully - but I get your point, it does feel like a step towards that.

I think more Metro customisation/unlocking will come with time, when the good Windows pros get around it.

That is not going to happen. If it does, that's a security flaw as far as Microsoft is concerned, and they will stomp all over it, no matter how good an idea it might be. Metro apps are extremely limited in terms of what they're allowed to do, and screwing with the UI is right out. Absolutely not acceptable.

In desktop mode, you have a chainsaw. In Metro, you have rubber-handled safety scissors, because you can't be trusted to own a fully functioning computer.

Can all tiles be changed in Metro, or are there certain tiles that will always be there? Like Apple does on the iPhone with certain icons.
Just curious.

Sparhawk wrote:

Can all tiles be changed in Metro, or are there certain tiles that will always be there? Like Apple does on the iPhone with certain icons.
Just curious.

As far as I can tell you can move/remove/add tiles for what ever programs you have installed, you can even remove the "desktop" tile (which takes you to desktop mode).

dissposablehero wrote:

you can even remove the "desktop" tile (which takes you to desktop mode).

Dude, you are going to make Malor's head explode!

Jayhawker wrote:
dissposablehero wrote:

you can even remove the "desktop" tile (which takes you to desktop mode).

Dude, you are going to make Malor's head explode!

Haha, I know - I think it might have as he's not replied

I did write it thinking "why would you ever remove that tile?". But the options there I guess.

dissposablehero wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

Can all tiles be changed in Metro, or are there certain tiles that will always be there? Like Apple does on the iPhone with certain icons.
Just curious.

As far as I can tell you can move/remove/add tiles for what ever programs you have installed, you can even remove the "desktop" tile (which takes you to desktop mode).

That's not too bad then. I don't like the metro thing at all. But at least it hasn't been locked down then.

Sparhawk wrote:
dissposablehero wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

Can all tiles be changed in Metro, or are there certain tiles that will always be there? Like Apple does on the iPhone with certain icons.
Just curious.

As far as I can tell you can move/remove/add tiles for what ever programs you have installed, you can even remove the "desktop" tile (which takes you to desktop mode).

That's not too bad then. I don't like the metro thing at all. But at least it hasn't been locked down then.

That aspect of it isn't locked no, but Malor has pointed out a few things that are. It does seem to have been designed with user customisation in mind so it's a little better than an Apple OS in that regard.

Sparhawk wrote:

That's not too bad then. I don't like the metro thing at all. But at least it hasn't been locked down then.

You can't rid of it, and Metro itself is locked down with an iron hand. You still have an escape hatch, but Microsoft is doing its best to make that escape hatch unattractive.

They would love it if you were to delete your Desktop tile, because that means you'll be paying rent forever, and you will never again be able to do anything with your computer that upsets Microsoft.

Please, they're quietly begging you, dump the desktop.

Malor wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

That's not too bad then. I don't like the metro thing at all. But at least it hasn't been locked down then.

You can't rid of it, and Metro itself is locked down with an iron hand. You still have an escape hatch, but Microsoft is doing its best to make that escape hatch unattractive.

They would love it if you were to delete your Desktop tile, because that means you'll be paying rent forever, and you will never again be able to do anything with your computer that upsets Microsoft.

Please, they're quietly begging you, dump the desktop.

You really don't like Windows 8 do you?

Calm down man, it's not like things like this haven't happened before (see OSX/IOS)

dissposablehero wrote:

You really don't like Windows 8 do you?

I don't think we can be sure.

Meanwhile, I think I'll upgrade my main systems to Windows 8 now. I need to play with Server 2012 before I decide if I'm going to upgrade my local servers or not yet.

LiquidMantis wrote:

Meanwhile, I think I'll upgrade my main systems to Windows 8 now. I need to play with Server 2012 before I decide if I'm going to upgrade my local servers or not yet.

Fair play, I hope it all goes smoothly for you and it doesn't take up too much of your time.

Calm down man, it's not like things like this haven't happened before

That's precisely the problem; Apple went down the path of lockdown with iOS, and because so many people took that lousy deal, now it's invading our desktops.

People say that slippery slope is a fallacy, and the exact same people will talk about the Overton window with no sense of contradiction.

Locked-down consoles were, arguably, necessary to support the model of selling the razor for less than it cost to make, and making it up on blades; the console lockdown was to, as much as possible, force you to buy the maker's games, and not someone else's. People accepted it, because they were getting a much stronger gaming machine than they could otherwise afford at the time. The Overton window moved, and DRM became more acceptable.

Then Apple shipped the first iPhone, which was very cool, but totally locked. People like me bought them anyway, because we blamed the evil phone companies for requiring the lockdown. Then Apple came out with the dev kits for it, along with the extremely restrictive App Store, in which they can determine what gets sold, and where you are allowed to buy iOS apps. I thought that was total bullsh*t and didn't buy in, but a lot of other people did, again blaming the carriers for requiring this abusive position. But then Apple came out with iOS devices that didn't even use cellular communication, that were local network only, and they were still locked.

And suddenly, this was acceptable. You weren't getting a dynamite deal on this hardware in exchange for the lockdown. Instead, Apple was making a ridiculous margin selling you the razor, and then demanded you buy the blades from them too. (and started making insane amounts of money.)

DRM in consoles was kind of okay, because you were getting $750 worth of console for about $400. This was not true of handsets at all, but because it happened a little at a time, in gradual steps, people went for it. The shiny beads were more important than Manhattan. The Overton window moved.

And now we've gotten to Microsoft, which asserts that it can now control hardware that you didn't even buy from them. The Overton window is moving again. This is a dire threat to everything you love about computers. The whole Internet is based on an open, free market, where anyone can innovate, where anyone can connect to anyone, where any program can do anything the machine is capable of doing. All this dizzying change will be greatly impaired, or will stop dead entirely, if Metro takes over. Nothing that seriously inconveniences Apple is allowed onto iOS, and nothing that Microsoft doesn't like will be allowed in Metro. And everyone will be paying rent forever.

This isn't just selling Manhattan for some shiny beads, this is giving away your wigwam and tribal lands, for the promise that you'll get some apartments. True, you have to pay rent for the apartments, but it starts out very, very cheap.

Turning yourself from a owner into a tenant is very rarely a good idea. Do you really want Microsoft deciding what political news you're allowed to consume? Apple's already doing this.

Malor wrote:

Do you really want Microsoft deciding what political news you're allowed to consume? Apple's already doing this.

Citation?

I really don't see desktop OSs getting as locked down as mobile OSs. It would just push enterprise and commercial customers to Linux.

It would probably end up good for consumers, but bad for MS in the longer term.

The day you can't install a programme because MS doesn't want you to is the day to start worrying.