Windows 8

PaladinTom wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
Kurrelgyre wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Touchscreen's make sense in laptops.. but still make zero sense in desktop land.. but again despite all the hand wringing and doom and gloom you can use Windows 8 100% with a mouse and keyboard.

Aren't sales figures also moving toward laptops and away from desktops? Just because you can use Windows 8 100% with a mouse and keyboard, doesn't mean it's that well suited to it. You can use OSX without a mouse, but it's infuriatingly inefficient.

Awesome...someone else telling me I'm doing something wrong... I use Windows 8 at work...I have 3 monitors and a keyboard and mouse. No touchscreen..if anything I'm slightly more productive these days...yet apparently I'm doing something wrong because Windows 8 is a inefficient mouse and keyboard OS.

I'd argue that it's the Metro parts of Windows 8 that is inefficient with mouse and keyboard. (The desktop part is quite good - if not a little better than Windows 7.) For example, commands that are quite nice with touch, are wildly confounding using the mouse and keyboard. You have to learn/re-learn how/where to click and either learn new keyboard shortcuts or force yourself to use keyboard commands more than ever. (I'd be willing to bet most "normal" users never use keyboard commands. They don't in my experience.)

Also, Metro apps require far more mouse movement for pointing/clicking than ever. I remember reading back in the day that Microsoft would heavily research and test how to be most efficient in Windows - which led to right-click context menus, smart-tags, and jump lists. That's now all out the window (ha!) with Metro.

I'm holding off until the mystical Windows 9 or Windows Blue fixes everything. ;-)

But where are Metro apps mandatory?? I configured Windows 8 to boot to the desktop.. I never see the Metro Start screen ever... I also use zero keyboard shortcuts..

If you boot to desktop and live there most of the time you can mostly avoid Metro. It's those occasional instances where you pop into a settings applet that's been Metrofied that throws me for a loop. For me at least, on my desktop pc with a 24" non-touch screen monitor, Windows 8 is a step down from Windows 7. I even rolled back to 7 on my older laptop, but I'm looking at convertibles/touch-screen ultrabooks with 8 where the touch input really shines.

For all of it's snark, the video posted above nailed the distinction between a touch-screen swipe and a touch-pad cursor sweep. Microsoft followed Apple down the wrong road this time. The only gesture on a touch-pad I find useful is two-fingered scroll.

Also, I just read that Intel is going to mandate touch screens for all ultrabooks (or rather pc's that want to use the official moniker). I think that's a good idea. Having more input options isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Like what? I've found exactly one instance where I'm forced to the Metro interface (this is running Windows 8 Pro joined to my work domain) and that was to actually Log Out. Which I do very very rarely..but is annoyingly now tied to the Metro Interface.. other than that every other single Windows setting I've had to use has been part of the regular old Control Panels.

TheGameguru wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
Kurrelgyre wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Touchscreen's make sense in laptops.. but still make zero sense in desktop land.. but again despite all the hand wringing and doom and gloom you can use Windows 8 100% with a mouse and keyboard.

Aren't sales figures also moving toward laptops and away from desktops? Just because you can use Windows 8 100% with a mouse and keyboard, doesn't mean it's that well suited to it. You can use OSX without a mouse, but it's infuriatingly inefficient.

Awesome...someone else telling me I'm doing something wrong... I use Windows 8 at work...I have 3 monitors and a keyboard and mouse. No touchscreen..if anything I'm slightly more productive these days...yet apparently I'm doing something wrong because Windows 8 is a inefficient mouse and keyboard OS.

I'd argue that it's the Metro parts of Windows 8 that is inefficient with mouse and keyboard. (The desktop part is quite good - if not a little better than Windows 7.) For example, commands that are quite nice with touch, are wildly confounding using the mouse and keyboard. You have to learn/re-learn how/where to click and either learn new keyboard shortcuts or force yourself to use keyboard commands more than ever. (I'd be willing to bet most "normal" users never use keyboard commands. They don't in my experience.)

Also, Metro apps require far more mouse movement for pointing/clicking than ever. I remember reading back in the day that Microsoft would heavily research and test how to be most efficient in Windows - which led to right-click context menus, smart-tags, and jump lists. That's now all out the window (ha!) with Metro.

I'm holding off until the mystical Windows 9 or Windows Blue fixes everything. ;-)

But where are Metro apps mandatory?? I configured Windows 8 to boot to the desktop.. I never see the Metro Start screen ever... I also use zero keyboard shortcuts..

If you boot to desktop and live there most of the time you can mostly avoid Metro. It's those occasional instances where you pop into a settings applet that's been Metrofied that throws me for a loop. For me at least, on my desktop pc with a 24" non-touch screen monitor, Windows 8 is a step down from Windows 7. I even rolled back to 7 on my older laptop, but I'm looking at convertibles/touch-screen ultrabooks with 8 where the touch input really shines.

For all of it's snark, the video posted above nailed the distinction between a touch-screen swipe and a touch-pad cursor sweep. Microsoft followed Apple down the wrong road this time. The only gesture on a touch-pad I find useful is two-fingered scroll.

Also, I just read that Intel is going to mandate touch screens for all ultrabooks (or rather pc's that want to use the official moniker). I think that's a good idea. Having more input options isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Like what? I've found exactly one instance where I'm forced to the Metro interface (this is running Windows 8 Pro joined to my work domain) and that was to actually Log Out. Which I do very very rarely..but is annoyingly now tied to the Metro Interface.. other than that every other single Windows setting I've had to use has been part of the regular old Control Panels.

Been a while since I've used it... but I had a bear of a time trying to connect to my hidden office wi-fi because I couldn't get to the traditional applet. I'm pretty sure Backup and Roll-Back (or whatever it's called) were also Metrofied. There's also a user settings applet that is all Metro if I recall, but maybe that's just for Metro settings. Like I said, it's not often you have to deal with Metro, but when you do it's quite jarring.

PaladinTom wrote:

Been a while since I've used it... but I had a bear of a time trying to connect to my hidden office wi-fi because I couldn't get to the traditional applet.

From the Metro Interface, start typing "Wireless Network" then click on the 'Settings' charm. From there you select the classic 'Set up a connection or network' and you're in the Desktop network settings. Pretty simple.

Literally ANY old control panel or setting is easily and readily available using the Search + charm function...

I use Windows 8, primarily in Metro, with a mouse and keyboard on a touchscreen-less laptop, and I'm quite happy with my experience. Not saying that my anecdata is any more or less valid than anyone else's, but I find the reports that Windows 8 is unusable, or even simply a poor experience, without a touchscreen to be a bit overblown. It's different but that's not the same thing as bad.

I'd say unusable is a bit strong too, but to continue with the example of the wireless config above, would I be unreasonable to expect that the new interface model be at least equivalent to the old interface in function? It seems like for a lot of things you have to tease the desired functions out with precise wording in search (perhaps the words in your head don't match what's in the search index) and at the end it gives you the old desktop UI to perform the task. It feels... convoluted in all my experience.

I'd like to think if they're going to make something new it's at least as good as the old one, and seeing as you've gone to all that trouble to make a new UI it pays off by being better.

Scratched wrote:

I'd say unusable is a bit strong too, but to continue with the example of the wireless config above, would I be unreasonable to expect that the new interface model be at least equivalent to the old interface in function? It seems like for a lot of things you have to tease the desired functions out with precise wording in search (perhaps the words in your head don't match what's in the search index) and at the end it gives you the old desktop UI to perform the task. It feels... convoluted in all my experience.

I'd like to think if they're going to make something new it's at least as good as the old one, and seeing as you've gone to all that trouble to make a new UI it pays off by being better.

For what its worth.. I've never had an issue getting a Windows 8 machine (Surface or Laptop) connected to the various wifi networks I've visited.. including a hidden SSID network. I never once thought that it was convoluted in the least.. on the Surface tablet its completely fine...in fact I'm hard pressed to understand exactly what the issue could be.

Meant to post earlier but my internet went down

I've only had five minutes with Metro in a Best Buy, but the vid seems kind of accurate, because in that five minutes, I wasn't able to accomplish anything and got incredibly frustrated and quit and it looks bad. I knew right then, I would actually require someone to show me how to work it before I could use it. I assembled my current pc. Now then, one might say this indicates I'm an old fuddy duddy stuck in old ways.

My experience with an Android tablet wasn't incredibly better, but the icons were very primal. While minimal, they seemed to indicate a broad message that I could correlate to what I needed to do.

It's like if two people who can't hear each other must communicate that one would like the other to carry an object from its current position to another.
You either know American Sign Language (Metro) and sign "Pick up this rectangular black box and deposit it ten meters to my right" or you point at the box and then point to where it needs to be located (Android).

Edwin wrote:

Haven't had a chance to try Win8 yet, but so far Bill Harris' take seems the most sensible.

I have seen the future, and it does not include us. Most of us, anyway.

Eli 11.4 increasingly needed the use of a computer for his schoolwork. I could have built him one, but the advantages of a notebook these days are undeniable. Then, when he saw an ultrabook convertible (notebook, converts to a tablet), that was immediately what he wanted.

Yes, I know that's ridiculous, except for one thing: I could play builds of Gridiron Solitaire on the tablet, since it runs Windows 8, and programs don't have to be Metro compatible to run in Windows 8.

That's probably all wrong, since I haven't tried it yet, but anyway, he got an ultrabook for Christmas.

Now, I understand that we all hate Windows 8. With a mouse, it's a nightmare. As soon as Eli started using the ultrabook, though, he was swiping and tapping on the touchscreen like he'd been doing it all his life. He was immediately, totally comfortable with the interface, and it was fast. Incredibly fast--with him at the helm, anyway.

That moment explained the future to me.

Microsoft couldn't care less if we hate Windows 8 when using a mouse and a regular monitor. Irrelevant. In five years, almost every monitor sold will be a touchscreen. In five years, a regular interface will be slow and archaic. In five years, we will all be used to this, because Microsoft dragged us forward.

Eli, and most other kids in his generation, has been using a touchscreen for most of his life. A mouse is positively clunky in comparison. Seriously, a notebook that bends over backwards and becomes a tablet? That is some Star Trek level sh*t.

The mouse, which is my choice for the most ingenious peripheral in the history of computing, is on life support.

Of course, if you think about it, a touchscreen makes a mouse obsolete, doesn't it? The mouse controls a cursor that "touches" things onscreen because we couldn't touch them ourselves. The touchscreen just eliminates the middleman.

Microsoft is so far ahead of the curve on this, and while you may think they're foolish now, that would be very, very incorrect. They are unmistakeably, positively brilliant this time, and in 2-3 years, everyone else is going to figure it out. Every Windows device will use essentially the same Metro-type interface, and we will be flying around that interface at lightspeed compared to using a mouse.

And you know what else? We're going to like it, too.

Here's what else is going to happen: more and more apps like Adera, which has this feature:
Play, Pause, Resume – start a game on any device, pause the game, and then pick up where you left off on any other compatible device.

Playing a game on the computer and don't want to stop playing, even when you're in your car? Just keep playing it on your phone, or your tablet. They should call this feature "continuous play", because that's what it promises, really.

That's a damned exciting future. Hell, it makes me want to go out and buy a touchscreen monitor right now.

[SIDEBAR: Of course, after Microsoft blazes the trail for years on this, Apple will announce a touchscreen Mac like it's a brand new technology that no one has ever used before, and people will believe them. Six months later, a majority of people will believe that Apple invented touchscreen technology, and that Microsoft is copying them.]

Bill Harris said it. Totally agree. Especially the sidebar, unfortunately. When Steve Jobs died, the biggest Belgian TV news' journalists went to an Apple store to interview the employees there. These 'geniuses' actually believed Apple invented the MP3 player.

Microsoft couldn't care less if we hate Windows 8 when using a mouse and a regular monitor. Irrelevant. In five years, almost every monitor sold will be a touchscreen. In five years, a regular interface will be slow and archaic. In five years, we will all be used to this, because Microsoft dragged us forward.

In five years I'll still want to sit back out of arms reach from my big monitor. As I was pondering earlier I'm guessing 'the way to go' is to use two screens with the second being a little touch screen just for this new UI, which while in some respects more can be better is a little disappointing from a minimalist standpoint.

Scratched wrote:
Microsoft couldn't care less if we hate Windows 8 when using a mouse and a regular monitor. Irrelevant. In five years, almost every monitor sold will be a touchscreen. In five years, a regular interface will be slow and archaic. In five years, we will all be used to this, because Microsoft dragged us forward.

In five years I'll still want to sit back out of arms reach from my big monitor. As I was pondering earlier I'm guessing 'the way to go' is to use two screens with the second being a little touch screen just for this new UI, which while in some respects more can be better is a little disappointing from a minimalist standpoint.

Microsoft should should somehow convert the large touch panel into a small touch-screen monitor with dedicated controls. I'm reminded of the small monitor that was supposed to be on the outside of the laptop when it was closed that would give basic info, even when the pc was asleep. I guess they could never make that happen.

Microsoft's problem is that they have so many good ideas, but no focus. They don't develop them properly and then Apple comes in and puts the fit and finish on something and takes all the credit.

Scratched wrote:

In five years I'll still want to sit back out of arms reach from my big monitor.

So you would like to Kinect with your computer?

Rezzy wrote:
Scratched wrote:

In five years I'll still want to sit back out of arms reach from my big monitor.

So you would like to Kinect with your computer?

D:

Actually that does bring up a good trait of thought, in the style of 'you must choose'. If mouse/keyboard interface was taken away tomorrow, what would you like instead? For me the defining thing is the clarity of that (two way) interface/communication and precise control.

Overall I think the main sticking point is the desktop use case, touchscreens work in other forms and they should be encouraged in those areas where they do make sense so they can mature. HCI, even mouse/keyboard HCI really is primitive, especially in human timescale terms and it needs time to develop (and humans are impatient). Forcing it before it's time doesn't really help.

Rezzy wrote:
Scratched wrote:

In five years I'll still want to sit back out of arms reach from my big monitor.

So you would like to Kinect with your computer?

That's already a thing. We're living in the future!

https://leapmotion.com/

Scratched wrote:

Actually that does bring up a good trait of thought, in the style of 'you must choose'. If mouse/keyboard interface was taken away tomorrow, what would you like instead? For me the defining thing is the clarity of that (two way) interface/communication and precise control.

We have X, we have Y. I want Z. Not just in my controller but also in my workspace. Something like the Novint Falcon. I long for the day where instead of scrolling I just tilt my head a bit. Treat the screen like a window... like the Windows-Key Tab trick but maintain that abstraction in active windows and let me arrange my workspaces inside the available virtual space instead of confining me to the dimensions of the physical screen. Toolbar? Tilt the screen or your head to the top. It's right there.
The key point to remember is that a touch-screen is a 'consumer' interface. I don't think we will ever go away from tactile physical interfaces on the 'creator' side until we get neural hookups... and even then we'll probably need to jack back into meat-space to refine the output. More likely the bulk of the work would be done in this realm and then 'enhanced' with perceptive meta-data in the Real(c) world to improve semantic consumption.

Derail. Sorry.
I removed Windows 8 from my main gaming machine. I was experiencing some odd lockups (which are now also happening in Windows 7), and I wanted an excuse to do a full reload of my OS anyway. I'm going to give it another week or so to get all my settings recreated and then probably load up 8 again. By that time I should have a Windows8 phone and (hopefully) more info on the Surface Pro. (Apparently Microsoft has a different definition of "early 2013" than I do.)

I think something that could keep you away from your monitor but using a touch screen is a small 7" or so touch screen that sits on your desk like the logitech track pad. It mirrors your desktop so you can use it to interact and can see icons and such on it. It would not need high resolution so it should be less than $100. I'd also think an ipad mini or nexus 7 would work for something like this.

I've been running Win 8 on my home desktop for a while, and I'm happy with it. It's faster than Win 7, it runs every game I own very well, and I spend almost no time in the Metro interface. Today, though, I got a Surface RT tablet through my workplace, and I've been playing with it all day. I really like it, and the Metro interface absolutely makes sense there. I expect that many users would probably ignore the desktop function altogether once they get accustomed to using the tablet. It does have shortcomings compared to the Surface Pro features that I've read about, but I'm impressed with how functional it is beyond the obvious features (native Office support, connectivity). I was able to connect to my workplace on it via VPN, then to my office computer via Remote Desktop. That is pretty damn nice.

I think there are enough control freaks like me that won't want to give up precision for a long time to come. But yeah, consumer vs creator interface, I can dig it. To be honest though, the kind of software I work on in my spare time is all on the creator side and I want everyone to be a creator.

It's not that we can't make precise, fast movments (we do that all the time); it's the technology itself(motion and touchscreen) that isn't precise enough. Even now it's barely adequate for the task at hand.
Also, look at your cursor, look at your finger, notice which one is bigger?
To me it's still not good for consumption because my entire hand gets in the way of the screen, how is that enjoyable?
Control isn't a problem (I can pull any specific dorito out of a bag without looking at my hand).

If and when I install Win8, it will probably overwrite my boot up for Linux. Not willing to look into how to fix that for now.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but there's a program that's called ClassicShell that adds the start menu back to Windows 8 desktop, also it has features that let you boot directly to desktop mode and disable all the metro features like the pop up metro start button in the bottom corner and lets you assign the windows key so it doesn't go into the metro screen. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
I'm using it at the moment, but I like the metro screen but I wanted the start button back. It's worth a go to any windows 8 user.

P.S its free too, unlike the stardock equivalent

Link http://www.classicshell.net/

Sparhawk wrote:

If and when I install Win8, it will probably overwrite my boot up for Linux. Not willing to look into how to fix that for now.

It's an easy fix, you just need to reinstall Grub. I think you were on Ubuntu, right? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Bo... It seriously just takes minutes to patch back up and dual-boot.

LiquidMantis wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

If and when I install Win8, it will probably overwrite my boot up for Linux. Not willing to look into how to fix that for now.

It's an easy fix, you just need to reinstall Grub. I think you were on Ubuntu, right? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Bo... It seriously just takes minutes to patch back up and dual-boot.

Doesn't sound too bad then. And yes, using Ubuntu.
I've had this before and thought to just reinstall Grub, but it didn't take back then. Then again. Setting up a new system isn't too hard either.

I went through this several times recently while trying to setup a new laptop as a Hackintosh and working through different combinations of trying to get OSX, Ubuntu, and Win8 booting. I eventually gave up on the Hackintosh as even when it was working the results were sub-optimal, but I had to fix bootloaders several times while dealing with re-installs and getting this new EFI stuff sorted out. Boot-Repair got me sorted out everytime with no pain. Now of course the usual "your results may vary" caveat applies so don't voodoo me if something goes south.

I'm going to ask the ultimate skimmer question: should I upgrade?

I built the computer in question in the spring of 2010 (I can post full specs if it matters) and use it primarily for gaming and Netflix. I've heard that W8 has some under-the-hood improvements, but am not clear on whether they really matter for gaming. And I figure that if I'm ever going to put 8 on this thing, I'll do it this month, before the price goes up.

misplacedbravado wrote:

I'm going to ask the ultimate skimmer question: should I upgrade?

I built the computer in question in the spring of 2010 (I can post full specs if it matters) and use it primarily for gaming and Netflix. I've heard that W8 has some under-the-hood improvements, but am not clear on whether they really matter for gaming. And I figure that if I'm ever going to put 8 on this thing, I'll do it this month, before the price goes up.

I'm using 8 now, and for gaming, I've seen no real difference. All the games I played before run just as well. I don't know if there is any improvement, but there's certainly no detrimental effect. I've watched a few YouTube videos too comparing the OS's and that pretty much confirmed my findings. If its still cheap then you may as well if that's your only concern. Personally I quite like the Metro Start Screen, I think its a step forward presentation wise. Just needs a few more good apps for it and tweaks so you can add your own tiles etc.

misplacedbravado wrote:

I'm going to ask the ultimate skimmer question: should I upgrade?

I built the computer in question in the spring of 2010 (I can post full specs if it matters) and use it primarily for gaming and Netflix. I've heard that W8 has some under-the-hood improvements, but am not clear on whether they really matter for gaming. And I figure that if I'm ever going to put 8 on this thing, I'll do it this month, before the price goes up.

Run the upgrade assistant. It will save you many a long hour trying to troubleshoot something that isn't supported.

If nothing else you can always google
"Can computer/laptop model xyz install windows 8"

Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Run the upgrade assistant. It will save you many a long hour trying to troubleshoot something that isn't supported.

If nothing else you can always google
"Can computer/laptop model xyz install windows 8"

I ran the assistant and selected the option for clean install, most of the games I have are through Steam and it puts a "Windows.OLD" folder in your C:/ drive so you can access all your old files (game saves, documents, downloads etc) I thought that would be the best way to avoid software issues.

misplacedbravado wrote:

I'm going to ask the ultimate skimmer question: should I upgrade?

Get a trial copy (enterprise version?) and try it in a VM, or on a spare hard disc and multiboot.

Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Run the upgrade assistant. It will save you many a long hour trying to troubleshoot something that isn't supported."

That makes perfect sense!

Fallout 3 is the only thing it flagged as unsupported that I might care about.

Scratched wrote:

Get a trial copy (enterprise version?) and try it in a VM, or on a spare hard disc and multiboot.

And that makes so much sense I wish I'd thought of it myself. What's the best free virtualization software these days? It's been a while since I played with that sort of thing.

misplacedbravado wrote:

What's the best free virtualization software these days? It's been a while since I played with that sort of thing.

I don't know about 'best' but I use Virtualbox.