Drawing / Sketching / Digital Painting

Jeff-66 wrote:

In other news, I picked up a putty eraser last night, and as promised, it helps very much with control, and they don't make the crumbly mess that rubber erasers do. Do those of you that use these typically break them apart into smaller chunks? Mine came as one 2"x2" semi-flat square. That seems kind of big.

You can break it up or keep it as a big whole. Totally up to you what size you want it. I have a couple hanging around of various sizes that have been combined and split apart so many times there probably isn't a single whole one in one ball. the nice thing is you can shape them into any shape you want. If you want to roll it up into a thin pencil type thing to erase some small detail stuff you can. Or something I like to do is stretch a section over a finger and erase with the tip of your finger. Something to try, maybe further on in your learning, is try laying down a large area of graphite with the side of your pencil tip, then going in and drawing with the eraser. It forces you to draw in the highlights instead of shadows, and it kind of helps break that programming. I love working in reverse like that personally.

Thanks, Rob, I'll try that.

An interesting thing I've found to do is to go to Google Images, and search on "sketch book" or "sketchbook". You'll get a nearly endless stream of people's personal sketchbooks, and see what kind of things people are doodling. Lots of cool stuff to look at, and get ideas from.

The author of the Dresden Codak comic has a new "art blog" where he talks about a lot of artistic techniques:
http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/

so a bit of a cheaters method I sometimes use for hand rendering a landscape is I posterize a photo of in photoshop and use that as an outline guide. This method has a particular goal in mind, so I dont think it is a universally sound method of drawing. A side note, my favorite style of drawing is starting with a draft of the subject, and then render it with excessive graphite. Something like this:
IMAGE(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3466/4575057513_00dcbcb2e1.jpg)
really big version
I used some vellum of some sort with a very fine tooth. I didnt have much choice about the weight as it was what ever I could find at 42"x36".

Rob_Anybody wrote:
Jeff-66 wrote:

In other news, I picked up a putty eraser last night, and as promised, it helps very much with control, and they don't make the crumbly mess that rubber erasers do. Do those of you that use these typically break them apart into smaller chunks? Mine came as one 2"x2" semi-flat square. That seems kind of big.

You can break it up or keep it as a big whole. Totally up to you what size you want it. I have a couple hanging around of various sizes that have been combined and split apart so many times there probably isn't a single whole one in one ball. the nice thing is you can shape them into any shape you want. If you want to roll it up into a thin pencil type thing to erase some small detail stuff you can. Or something I like to do is stretch a section over a finger and erase with the tip of your finger. Something to try, maybe further on in your learning, is try laying down a large area of graphite with the side of your pencil tip, then going in and drawing with the eraser. It forces you to draw in the highlights instead of shadows, and it kind of helps break that programming. I love working in reverse like that personally.

fyi to clean a soft eraser just keep stretching it out and folding it back on itself

A lot of people have mentioned shapes and I think this gets to a bigger point, composition. If you draw the details poorly, but have good and interesting composition and balance, you'll make more interesting drawings / art.

Most people don't think of this as the place to start, but I think most artists do. Block out a frame for your work and place the parts of your drawing in that frame. Then start to fill in the large shapes and work in to the details. You can obviously draw lightly to make the big shapes and darker when you get to the details.

Another way to work is to frame an image you like or a magazine ad / photo and draw a grid over it. Copy the grid onto your drawing and try to recreate the image with the grid as a guide. It will help you think about the image as shapes and focus on the small areas. Again, work on large shapes down to small shapes.

My favorite type of art is print type art which tends to have less detail, so I could be a bit biased, but I think if you set a good foundation for interesting composition, you're stuff will always be interesting. This will extend to photography and other things as well.

As someone else said, take a step back from your stuff every once in a while. Step back about 10 feet and you'll see the large shapes, etc. It's hard to get a good perspective when you're real close.

Charcoal is a great tool for working on shading and shapes. And your fingers turn black!

Probably my favorite drawing I did in high school. Also happens to go against many of the things I said :).
IMAGE(http://fc00.deviantart.net/images3/i/2004/136/6/e/Natalie_Portman_Drawing.jpg)

PandaEskimo wrote:

Also happens to go against many of the things I said :).

I've always thought that one of the most important things about being an artist is to know when to break the rules
And for the record, I don't think that drawing goes against what you said. It has a very good composition. Strong focal point, balanced but not symmetrical, lots of nice negative space.

PandaEskimo wrote:

Probably my favorite drawing I did in high school.

That's awesome. Great drama.

I feel the need to go a bit against the grain of the conversation here, and advise to stay away from the various "how to" and "draw the ____ way" books and lessons. The best way to learn to draw is to just dive in and draw. All the books on the subject I've come across tend to introduce more bad habits than help, or are geared more towards producing human photocopiers than experienced artists. It's far more important to develop one's own style and voice than it is to make certain each figure is X amount of heads tall.

ruhk wrote:

I feel the need to go a bit against the grain of the conversation here, and advise to stay away from the various "how to" and "draw the ____ way" books and lessons. The best way to learn to draw is to just dive in and draw. All the books on the subject I've come across tend to introduce more bad habits than help, or are geared more towards producing human photocopiers than experienced artists. It's far more important to develop one's own style and voice than it is to make certain each figure is X amount of heads tall.

I appreciate the sentiment of "just draw", I really do, but when I did that, my stuff looked horrible, and I'd get dejected and quit.

I know there are differing opinions about which books to get and what to avoid, but I'll say this, for me and what I enjoy - so far the best book I've bought is "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way". I like drawing people, and characters, and this book has been among the most helpful to me so far.

The newbie sketcher will tend to draw like a 10 year old, and I know I sure fell under this category. I get frustrated by my symbolic placement of features (footballs for eyes, etc). The Marvel book is a pretty damn good primer for the new sketcher. It taught me that drawing isn't attempting to draw the finished object from the start, but rather it's like building a house. I found out I can make rough, loose lines at first, and then fine tune, and add form to the general shapes.

This might sound obvious to some, but to a lot of us, this process isn't obvious. So I guess what I'm saying is, you can 'just draw', but I'm not sure how far some of us would get without a solid set of foundational principles to work from.

I found some good 10-minute tutorials on YouTube from this thread on DrawingBoard.org. Those should help with the basics.

Jeff-66 wrote:
ruhk wrote:

I feel the need to go a bit against the grain of the conversation here, and advise to stay away from the various "how to" and "draw the ____ way" books and lessons. The best way to learn to draw is to just dive in and draw. All the books on the subject I've come across tend to introduce more bad habits than help, or are geared more towards producing human photocopiers than experienced artists. It's far more important to develop one's own style and voice than it is to make certain each figure is X amount of heads tall.

I appreciate the sentiment of "just draw", I really do, but when I did that, my stuff looked horrible, and I'd get dejected and quit.

I know there are differing opinions about which books to get and what to avoid, but I'll say this, for me and what I enjoy - so far the best book I've bought is "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way". I like drawing people, and characters, and this book has been among the most helpful to me so far.

The newbie sketcher will tend to draw like a 10 year old, and I know I sure fell under this category. I get frustrated by my symbolic placement of features (footballs for eyes, etc). The Marvel book is a pretty damn good primer for the new sketcher. It taught me that drawing isn't attempting to draw the finished object from the start, but rather it's like building a house. I found out I can make rough, loose lines at first, and then fine tune, and add form to the general shapes.

This might sound obvious to some, but to a lot of us, this process isn't obvious. So I guess what I'm saying is, you can 'just draw', but I'm not sure how far some of us would get without a solid set of foundational principles to work from.

A lot of instructional books are just going to give you new symbols. Find a way to get past those symbols. Maybe that means turning something upside down, or maybe drawing things you don't have symbols for, or maybe zooming in on an image close enough that you don't recognize it. After you think you've drawn something, take a close look to see where your drawing doesn't match. Drawing on tracing paper can help with that.

I've used one of those "How to draw comics" books and it did help me. Here's an example from one where I used the picture from the book as a guide to draw it myself. (Some of you may recognize the picture if you have the same book.)

IMAGE(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Drawings/Hero1.jpg)

That is a very nice eye!

RISE

I'm still drawing, though I did stop for a while there. I'm now pretty much just drawing on the PC, using Sketchbook Pro 11, and my Wacom tablet & pen.

Just thought I'd post an update, and kind of a neat-o comparison work:

First, here is an eye I drew when I very first took up sketching about a year and a half ago:

IMAGE(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/ziffel66/drawing/jeff-first-eye.jpg)

Pretty hideous. On the previous page, Wordsmythe mentioned getting the brain away from trying to put down symbols, instead of the lines we actually see. "Symbol Syndrome" is quite apparent above, and you can see the eye being represented by a football shape.

This is an eye I drew earlier today:

IMAGE(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/ziffel66/drawing/jeff-eye-drawing-32811.jpg)

Far from perfect, but quite a jump from my initial try!

fangblackbone wrote:

That is a very nice eye!

Thanks!

One of my upcoming goals is to be able to actually draw a pair of eyes together. Symmetry is hard!

Jeff-66 wrote:
fangblackbone wrote:

That is a very nice eye!

Thanks!

One of upcoming goals is to be able to actually draw a pair of eyes together. Symmetry is hard!

Most things aren't actually symmetrical :). That is a nice improvement. If you like the idea of soft gradients, I would suggest charcoal. With charcoal, you can lay down dark lines and smear them with your fingers or a smearing stick (forget the name) and get really smooth gradients.

My main observation (don't take it too harshly) is that you've got a range of techniques there that look more jumbled than cohesive. You also have very rough edges, which you sometimes get from making small segments and going back and forth instead of making one smooth gesture. Making those gestures is important for certain types of images because art is about portraying something in a certain way and people's expectations play into that. We are all really used to seeing eyes and we think of them as very smooth objects.

In terms of the differing techniques, you have gradients, lines, hatching, and varying tones and thicknesses of the lines. Hatching and gradients to me fight each other in this drawing. Sticking to one would give the whole thing a more cohesive look.

To work on these issues (and a super easy way if you are using a PC) is to make layers for the image. Make a rough sketch of the large shapes and make sure you have them placed in the right places. You can overlap stuff and your lines can be rough. Then go over that image and make sweeping lines where they need to be. You'll have your original layout to guide you.

I think if you make a few sketches and stick to a single technique for each, you will end up with a good idea of where those techniques can be used and each piece will hold together better.

Nice progress!

Get the Art & Craft of Drawing by Vernon Blake

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Craft-Draw...

Panda, thanks very much for the constructive help. I'm very familiar with layers, and normally use them. I didn't on that eye drawing. That basically just started out as a quick sketch looking at a model picture, and I just kept going and zoned out. I know what you mean about small segments, vs smooth gestures. I think I just don't yet possess the confidence.

Mex, thanks a bunch for the book recommendation. I'm looking into it.

You inspired me to do another pencil drawing trying to do what I suggested you do.

I think it worked out, but my style is a little sloppy and I tend to emphasize certain things. I think that's fine though. I found I really enjoy certain styles and materials and really don't like others. I hate drawing tablets. I really like charcoal, pens, and dark pencils. I also really like to let the art aspect of the work show. I like to see the lines in pencil drawings, the hatching in pens, and the pressure and rough edges of some prints. It seems more crafty to me.

IMAGE(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/808/eyesketch.jpg)

I noticed the eyebrow is too far off and there is some missing shadows too under the lash. The eye is also a bit too open. It's about 2"x2".

Another tip would be to step back from your work and look at a distance. I think this is great for giving you an idea of what details come through and what type of drawing gets muddy at a distance.

Anyway, fun drawing everyone!

Most things aren't actually symmetrical

This is critical. And just as important as drawing what you see rather than the symbols Jeff alluded to earlier.

Also, foreshortening = teh hard ;P (but that was more directed to marsman)

IMHO the things that stick out to me are the lower lid is covering too much of the iris. In fact while I agree with you that the eye is a bit too open, I think that is also a symptom of your iris being to large.

Great work BTW! I am really just talking out loud to myself because I am so out of practice I wanted to take the opportunity to study your drawing.

Great job, Panda. I have a difficult time also with the fine hairs, like the lashes and eyebrow, that you did so nicely on yours. If you guys have some more of your work you can show, I'd love to see it.

fangblackbone wrote:
Most things aren't actually symmetrical

This is critical. And just as important as drawing what you see rather than the symbols Jeff alluded to earlier.

Also, foreshortening = teh hard ;P (but that was more directed to marsman)

Foreshortening
Got it! Thanks.

IMAGE(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Drawings/Hero2.jpg)

IMAGE(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Drawings/Hero5.jpg)

I just looked at my sketch pad. I did those back around 1997. I haven't touched a pencil in a while. I've got to get my pads back out again.

Panda, great work! I'm inspired to get back to it and improve my technique. (Which leaves me lots of leeway.)

I confess to skimming. I'm no artist, but I'm interested in learning the same way you are. Here's what I've found. What I haven't found is enough time (and that is always an excuse, for not finding the drive).

-get a sketchbook that you swear to yourself you will NEVER SHOW TO ANYONE. This gets you over the fear of failure which stops you from drawing. If you're never going to show it to anyone, you can draw a crap drawing and it doesn't matter. You have to draw a lot of crap drawings before you draw any good ones. You will also have days where you're off. Even athletes have days where they don't perform at their top level.

-get the right books. You're on the right path. Drawing On The Right Side of the Brain is excellent.
-Also study Loomis, Vilppu, and Constructive Anatomy by Bridgman (which may have passed the statute of limitations on copyright and is available online from an american library website. I'll have to re-google it to see if I can find it.

-Start a sketchbook page at Conceptart.org
-look at some of the others. There are quite a few where the quality of art goes from childish to professional over a couple of years.

*edit* Maybe NSFW contains nudes
-Here's my sketchbook there. Not because I'm any kind of artist, but because it shows a sketchover which someone did for me and shows how that community will help you out.

Ghostship, thanks for the Conceptart link. That looks like an endless supply of ideas.

Jeff-66 wrote:

Ghostship, thanks for the Conceptart link. That looks like an endless supply of ideas.

It's a great learning resource.

Oh, and if you're the age of most GWJers, you're probably past the "beat yourself up about your drawing" stage. One thing I noticed, while going through others' sketchbooks at conceptart.org, (and I have high school drawings in which I did this) is they always put self critique on their drawings, but in the voice of a disapproving critic or more likely an abusive critic. Don't beat yourself up over your poor drawings. Look at it and decide what was good, or turn the page and forget about it. It was just a step in the learning process. Nobody needs to make excuses for proof of learning. Nobody needs to head off a critic's comments by beating them to it with self deprecation. Definately look for mistakes but do it like the draw over that guy did in my sketchbook. No need to justify why it's not a Michaelangelo. We're learning, that's why. *steps off soapbox*. If we let that be good enough for ourselves, we remove another barrier to the learning process.

I don't beat myself up over lousy work, but sometimes I do get frustrated with not knowing how to approach something. I have zero formal training, and hadn't done any drawing/painting since I was a kid, till two years ago. So anything I've learned, was picked up online or from a few books I bought. I am going to get some Andrew Loomis books that you recommended earlier.

fangblackbone wrote:

IMHO the things that stick out to me are the lower lid is covering too much of the iris. In fact while I agree with you that the eye is a bit too open, I think that is also a symptom of your iris being to large.

Great work BTW! I am really just talking out loud to myself because I am so out of practice I wanted to take the opportunity to study your drawing.

Thanks. Looking at it, the proportions are a bit off. I think on the one hand, this goes back to my style of overemphasizing eyes (like a lot of people). More about that below.

Jeff-66 wrote:

Great job, Panda. I have a difficult time also with the fine hairs, like the lashes and eyebrow, that you did so nicely on yours. If you guys have some more of your work you can show, I'd love to see it.

I think I try to (successfully or unsuccessfully) give the impression of forms instead of replicate them exactly. You can exaggerate certain things and omit others. I think its amazing how great artists can whip up a sketch really quickly that conveys all the details of something without putting too much on the paper. A lot is implied there.

Another comment on your eye sketch is that you really nailed the overall form and a lot of the shading. If you squint at your sketch, all the shading works well, the shapes are great and the contrast is good. I think that when you get to the details of the piece, it falls apart a bit because of the inconsistencies of technique and less confident lines. You will work on those technical bits, but the big picture elements are great at this point! Better than my sketch I think.

------------------------

From Ghostship's link,

IMAGE(http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?s=e280ba267fe08ebece7932666e1f0071&attachmentid=1085425&stc=1&d=1287532713)

I think this is an awesome image. The colors are super vibrant. The abstracted nature and lack of fine details emphasizes those colors to me. I'm not a huge art history guy, but I think this nails what modern art (impressionist specifically) is all about. You capture an element and really emphasize that element by toning down the non relevant bits.

Damn, now you've all guilted me into deciding I need to do more drawing. Somebody invent the 26 hour day, stat!

This is probably the last one I was vaguely happy with (apologies for the ghastly quality - I've not got access to a scanner here so I had to take a crappy low res phone-camera shot of it )

IMAGE(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i183/stevenmack/evilgypsy1.jpg)

Like Jeff-66, I'd not done much of anything since school drawing wise until a few years ago. I really need to set aside time to do more though.

Also I really need to buy a scanner.

PandaEskimo wrote:

Another comment on your eye sketch is that you really nailed the overall form and a lot of the shading. If you squint at your sketch, all the shading works well, the shapes are great and the contrast is good. I think that when you get to the details of the piece, it falls apart a bit because of the inconsistencies of technique and less confident lines. You will work on those technical bits, but the big picture elements are great at this point! Better than my sketch I think.

Thanks a lot, that's encouraging to hear. And Ghostship's peach painting is indeed awesome. I leave for vacation in the morning, but when I get back I'd love to hear some of you guys' common procedures. I understand about the layers and building up on those layers, but I would also like to hear, for example, Ghostship's step by step process for doing that peach piece. I eventually want to get into colors.

Stevenmack, great sketch! she is vampyre ... nosferatu! I can't draw hair like that.