Star Wars: The Old Republic (KOTOR MMO) catch-all

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I have mixed feelings about this. I'm confident that Bioware can turn out a good MMO if they put their minds to it, but KOTOR's strength has always been in the story telling and with an MMO you lose that.

Disagree. I think MMO's have the best canvas to work with when it comes to story telling. Granted lot of times the story gets lost admist all the hype about the gameplay, but there's been some gems. AC and SWG are two old ones that stand out from a story perspective for me.

If that's the same announcement i saw earlier we still have to wait till this coming weekend or next week before hearing anything.

I'm in, I think it will be a nice change from the usual fantasy fare. Here's hoping they can survive the inevitable onslaught of nerd rage from the "you will never make it" crowd.

ranalin wrote:

Disagree. I think MMO's have the best canvas to work with when it comes to story telling.

The reality shared with other players prevents meaningful, individual choice & consequence in the MMORPG world.
The behavior/talk of other players prevents any sort of meaningful immersion. The presence of other players prevents any sense of being unique or standing out. You, the protagonist, are unique... just like everyone else. Your story matters.... just as much as everyone else's. Which, by the way, is a story of no-story.

Single-player RPGs have absolutely the best canvas to work with when it comes to storytelling.

shihonage wrote:
ranalin wrote:

Disagree. I think MMO's have the best canvas to work with when it comes to story telling.

The reality shared with other players prevents meaningful, individual choice & consequence in the MMORPG world.
The behavior/talk of other players prevents any sort of meaningful immersion. The presence of other players prevents any sense of being unique or standing out. You, the protagonist, are unique... just like everyone else. Your story matters.... just as much as everyone else's. Which, by the way, is a story of no-story.

Single-player RPGs have absolutely the best canvas to work with when it comes to storytelling.

I agree with a lot of what you said...I find it hard to believe that everyone is the "chosen one". However Bioware could surprise us with a new take on the MMO formula. Maybe they will do what SWG did (before it fell apart) in that the game didn't try to make you special just unique. The difference being that they treated you as if you were just a galactic citizen in a time of war and you could make a unique profession progression (horrible alliteration, I'm sorry) by just playing the way you wanted to.

KOTOR could do much of the same, but I am going to wait and see if they just make it so everyone can just be a jedi right off the bat, because if so I am out. I get that in the time frame jedi are supposed to be abundant, but the problem with making jedi is that they are supposed to be amazingly powerful no matter which path you choose. The problem with trying to make it work in an MMO is class balance. So you either wind up with a playable class that is super overpowered, which everyone will play, or you wind up with a gimped version of the class that just doesn't feel right. SWG did it right in the beggining by making it a rare-ish unlock with perma death attached. So you could get an uber powerful character but he was hunted by Bounty Hunters on sight and once he died, which was kind of hard to do given how amazing the class used to be, that was it until you got lucky enough to get another unlock.

I'd rather be part of a bigger cause then "The One" any day. I'm so damn sick of "The One" in RPGs. Give up the Jesus complex already!

Is everyone going to be a Jedi in this game?

Swat wrote:

I'd rather be part of a bigger cause then "The One" any day. I'm so damn sick of "The One" in RPGs. Give up the Jesus complex already!

Being a person who brings change or significantly advances the game world is a requirement for having a fun RPG. If the world doesn't change, there's no sense of progression. If the world changes, then you changed it, therefore your alter ego carries a degree of importance in it. If the world changes and you DIDN'T change it, then the game is playing itself. Like ProgressQuest .

Practically every game we play attracts us by its ability to make us feel like something more. More powerful. More important. More skillful. More capable of inducing change.

We become master athletes, super spies, incredible marksmen, deadly martial artists, war-mongering politicians, and yes... world-changing heroes.

ranalin wrote:

Disagree. I think MMO's have the best canvas to work with when it comes to story telling. Granted lot of times the story gets lost admist all the hype about the gameplay, but there's been some gems. AC and SWG are two old ones that stand out from a story perspective for me.

I haven't played those two, admittedly, but the ones I have played have not presented a meaningful story. The world may have a good story, but the MMOs are crappy at telling it.

CrashedHardrive wrote:

KOTOR could do much of the same, but I am going to wait and see if they just make it so everyone can just be a jedi right off the bat, because if so I am out. I get that in the time frame jedi are supposed to be abundant, but the problem with making jedi is that they are supposed to be amazingly powerful no matter which path you choose. The problem with trying to make it work in an MMO is class balance. So you either wind up with a playable class that is super overpowered, which everyone will play, or you wind up with a gimped version of the class that just doesn't feel right.

I assumed that all of the classes would be different types of Jedi, and thus balanced off against each other. Sure you'd wind up with a ton of Jedi relative to the amount of 'normal' NPCs, but I think that's allowable in MMOs (where are all the farmers in WoW? :-p).

As to story, I think it'd work better if they steer away from the 'unique snowflake' angle. In the context of something like the Mandalorian wars there's plenty of room for a lot of characters to be doing something that's meaningful, without needing to be the last hope for the galaxy.

They might be able to have some fun with story-telling if they use a technology like the one being added in WotLK (phasing?) that means you see different NPCs present depending on your progression through various quests. I don't think it can get to the level of a single-player game, but there are ways to step it up from the current MMO standard.

I just hope that they have interesting light and dark options, rather than the cartoony extremes. I'm really not a fan of your dialogue options being:

1) Of course I'll help! Can I take out the garbage and mow your lawn after rescuing the puppies?
2) Well, I'll do it, but there had better be a good reward...
3) I will now kill you and your family.

Meaningful dialogue options in a MMO ? Coming from a large, established company ? Not happening.

The most they will do is give you "dark" and "light" talent trees.

shihonage wrote:

Meaningful dialogue options in a MMO ? Coming from a large, established company ? Not happening.

The most they will do is give you "dark" and "light" talent trees.

Spoilsport. I'm sure you're right about dialogue trees, but they could quite easily have quests give you light or dark points, or just have them as separate factions.

Sonicator wrote:
CrashedHardrive wrote:

KOTOR could do much of the same, but I am going to wait and see if they just make it so everyone can just be a jedi right off the bat, because if so I am out. I get that in the time frame jedi are supposed to be abundant, but the problem with making jedi is that they are supposed to be amazingly powerful no matter which path you choose. The problem with trying to make it work in an MMO is class balance. So you either wind up with a playable class that is super overpowered, which everyone will play, or you wind up with a gimped version of the class that just doesn't feel right.

I assumed that all of the classes would be different types of Jedi, and thus balanced off against each other. Sure you'd wind up with a ton of Jedi relative to the amount of 'normal' NPCs, but I think that's allowable in MMOs (where are all the farmers in WoW? :-p).

I really hope not. There is so much more potential for this game than a strictly jedi MMO. Like I said if it's an all jedi MMO I am out :smile:.

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

Tetnis wrote:

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

SWG tried that, and failed miserably. Of course, that was a Sony MMO, and Sony fails miserably.

Sonicator wrote:

where are all the farmers in WoW? :-p

What are you talking about? There are tons of farmers in WoW.

Shoal07 wrote:
Tetnis wrote:

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

SWG tried that, and failed miserably. Of course, that was a Sony MMO, and Sony fails miserably.

ya sony did try it but as u said in the end of your post sony fails miserably, at most things recently ( which is a shame ) and if any company can do it right then it would be bioware. i loved mass effect and think that if they could apply that storytelling to an mmo space then it would succeed. i guess the only real problem is whether or not to allow ppl to be jedi. hard one...

Tetnis wrote:
Shoal07 wrote:
Tetnis wrote:

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

SWG tried that, and failed miserably. Of course, that was a Sony MMO, and Sony fails miserably.

ya sony did try it but as u said in the end of your post sony fails miserably, at most things recently ( which is a shame ) and if any company can do it right then it would be bioware. i loved mass effect and think that if they could apply that storytelling to an mmo space then it would succeed. i guess the only real problem is whether or not to allow ppl to be jedi. hard one...

Yes, Sony failed, but no company is going to duplicate a failed endevor, whatever the reason. Expect a KOTOR MMO to be loaded with playable Jedi. The whole idea behind KOTOR is its the time period where Jedi are numerous.

Sonicator wrote:

I just hope that they have interesting light and dark options, rather than the cartoony extremes. I'm really not a fan of your dialogue options being:

1) Of course I'll help! Can I take out the garbage and mow your lawn after rescuing the puppies?
2) Well, I'll do it, but there had better be a good reward...
3) I will now kill you and your family.

[Stab] Needs to be the final option.

It's the only one needed, IMO.

EDIT: HTML formatting makes me cry.

Tetnis wrote:
Shoal07 wrote:
Tetnis wrote:

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

SWG tried that, and failed miserably. Of course, that was a Sony MMO, and Sony fails miserably.

ya sony did try it but as u said in the end of your post sony fails miserably, at most things recently ( which is a shame ) and if any company can do it right then it would be bioware. i loved mass effect and think that if they could apply that storytelling to an mmo space then it would succeed. i guess the only real problem is whether or not to allow ppl to be jedi. hard one...

Well they definitely need jedi in the game during the time frame the game is set in. Whether or not they are npcs or a playable class is obviously a decision that Bioware has made. The jedi are likely one fo the hardest character archetype to implement in an MMO and do it right. I for one would love to be a Mandalorian Commando or a Bounty Hunter in this game if they are done correctly. Jedi as an unlockable alpha class with perma death attached to it was a really good implementation of the Jedi in an MMO. That way they were rare (due to having to do a lot to unlock it, and the fact that their numbers were kept in check with perma death) and could still be super powerful as they should be. I'm not saying that they should do this in a KotOR MMO, but I just really hope they don't have every player forced into playing a jedi either through it being the only class or the fact that compared to a jedi the other classes are not worth playing.

CrashedHardrive wrote:
Tetnis wrote:
Shoal07 wrote:
Tetnis wrote:

Ya i don't know about a KOTOR mmo. We all know that everyone will eat any form of star wars universe no matter how spoiled it is...but i have to agree that everyone ending up as a jedi leads me to think that class differences would be nill. i would personally rather that you can not be a jedi. i think the jedi should be the NPC bosses that you and yours are trying to keep alive or killing the sith.

SWG tried that, and failed miserably. Of course, that was a Sony MMO, and Sony fails miserably.

ya sony did try it but as u said in the end of your post sony fails miserably, at most things recently ( which is a shame ) and if any company can do it right then it would be bioware. i loved mass effect and think that if they could apply that storytelling to an mmo space then it would succeed. i guess the only real problem is whether or not to allow ppl to be jedi. hard one...

Well they definitely need jedi in the game during the time frame the game is set in. Whether or not they are npcs or a playable class is obviously a decision that Bioware has made. The jedi are likely one fo the hardest character archetype to implement in an MMO and do it right. I for one would love to be a Mandalorian Commando or a Bounty Hunter in this game if they are done correctly. Jedi as an unlockable alpha class with perma death attached to it was a really good implementation of the Jedi in an MMO. That way they were rare (due to having to do a lot to unlock it, and the fact that their numbers were kept in check with perma death) and could still be super powerful as they should be. I'm not saying that they should do this in a KotOR MMO, but I just really hope they don't have every player forced into playing a jedi either through it being the only class or the fact that compared to a jedi the other classes are not worth playing.

I disagree. You're praising Sony for what was argueably one of the WORST implementations they could have gone with. They lied about Jedi being unlocakable from the beginning, then they devised a stupid and insane grinding system to unlock them, then they just gave them away. At no step in the process did ANYONE like what Sony did. In the end, when they redesigned the game, they balanced Jedi with everything else. Just because you have Jedi doesn't mean they have to be super powerful. Not everyone is Anakin and Luke (and even Luke is teh sux0r of Jedi unless you read the expanded universe stuff).

Shoal07 wrote:

teh sux0r

?

They didnt lie about them being unlocked at the beginning. We had a guy in our guild that unlocked theirs just by random.

I have one question before consideration can begin:

What's the combat like?

vbl wrote:

I have one question before consideration can begin:

What's the combat like?

No one knows yet. While the signs point to a KOTOR MMO they could pull a switch and have something else they're doing. Have to wait until the announcement to find out. Even then that may be all we get. Just the announcement.

Maybe it will just be KOTOR III, non-MMO.

Reaper81 wrote:

Maybe it will just be KOTOR III, non-MMO.

Or onlinish like Diablo 3 with smaller groups of players..

Like Too Human but not crappy?

I still have to stand firm and say that I'm anti Jedi as a playable class and that would go for Sith lords as well. I really think for them to do it right they would need to focus on the rest of the universe and all of the unexplored new content that is out there. I'm not saying jedi shouldn't be in the game I just think that no matter what even if they are no more powerfull than said bounty hunter that you would see way way too many jedi compared to the other playable classes. I haven't read the books but there must be some form of being that can manipulate the force without a light saber and ninja skills.

I haven't read the books but there must be some form of being that can manipulate the force without a light saber and ninja skills.

Force "witches."

The Knights of the Old Republic Series is chock full of force users. The Force essentially runs rampant during this time so it's no big deal if there's tons of Jedi or not.

That said, I hope it's a small scale multiplayer focused game. MMO's are all well and good but KOTOR deserves a true sequel/end to the Revan story line and an MMO could not offer that.

Shoal07 wrote:

I disagree. You're praising Sony for what was argueably one of the WORST implementations they could have gone with. They lied about Jedi being unlocakable from the beginning, then they devised a stupid and insane grinding system to unlock them, then they just gave them away. At no step in the process did ANYONE like what Sony did. In the end, when they redesigned the game, they balanced Jedi with everything else. Just because you have Jedi doesn't mean they have to be super powerful. Not everyone is Anakin and Luke (and even Luke is teh sux0r of Jedi unless you read the expanded universe stuff).

Acutally the pre-cu jedi was one of the best implementation of a hero class I have seen in a game thus far. Also don't think that because I said they did this right that I am in love with SoE. I have posted numerous times decrying what they have done to pretty much all their games. Jedi were always unloackable they never lied about it the problem was no one knew how so once the first one was unlocked people started to catch on. The fact that if you were a jedi and show any sign of it in town then you were flagged as a killable bounty to all bounty hunters was really a great idea and made the game more interesting. In the revision process (ie: CU and NGE) they f'ed it up big time and it is what made me hate SoE. I'm not going to get into some retarded debate on whether the jedi should be super powerful, but I will say that against someone with a blaster, given what we know about what jedi are capable of, they would be able to destroy them regardless of whether or not they are Anakin (which by the way also sucked) or Darth Maul. It will be hard to balance that, if not impossible to get right if they are just a regular playable class. We will see what Bioware can pull off, but it will definitely take some doing. No need for such aggression...I hate SoE too.

If I recall right, KotOR II did a creditable job of adding feats that made non-Jedi characters (i.e. your companions) heroic enough to deal with force-using opponents at the higher levels (things like making blaster bolts more difficult to deflect with a light saber.) Personally, I'd be pretty happy to play a non-Jedi character in the KotOR universe. All depends on how well things are done. At the very least, I hope it's reasonable for a character who is a Jedi to have other features that make them unique. The big thing I thought when the original SWG Jedi system was revealed was that it was ridiculous that you had to leave all of your old abilities behind to become a powerful Jedi. If my character is a Master Dancer, why should she have to stop doing that in order to become a master Jedi?

Anyway, like I said: Have to see where they're going, if they aim for such an MMO. At the very least, having a lot of Jedi around (although hopefully not all player characters) doesn't break the universe like it did in SWG. And also at the very least, if anybody else tries to build a Star Wars MMO, it's not going to have the same kind of broken economy and general gameplay that SWG had in its final pre-let's-rewrite-the-game days.

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