"Kill Team" Photos from Afghanistan

Maq wrote:

Just so we're clear: We're an invading army, right? Because you can justify this as part of the training, the fog of war, the bad apples, or whatever the hell you like. The fact is that our elected representatives have sent these people into someone else's country and they've murdered civilians and taken goddamn trophy photos.

When they make movies of these times, rest assured we're the bad guys here. This is just straight up evil.

"We"? So wait, you were one of those guys?

You must be mad at Morlock for going snitch on you.

Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:
Maq wrote:

Just so we're clear: We're an invading army, right? Because you can justify this as part of the training, the fog of war, the bad apples, or whatever the hell you like. The fact is that our elected representatives have sent these people into someone else's country and they've murdered civilians and taken goddamn trophy photos.

When they make movies of these times, rest assured we're the bad guys here. This is just straight up evil.

"We"? So wait, you were one of those guys?

You must be mad at Morlock for going snitch on you.

Just look at him, for heaven's sake. He's got a thousand-yard stare and he's wearing a hoodie.

Rolling Stone just published a very disturbing expose on the Kill Team.

So Morlock wasn't the good guy who's consciousness made him come clean. He was actually the one who kicked off the killings, throwing a grenade at an unarmed 15-year-old farmer. He was just an idiot who bragged about the killings on video tape when questioned.

It turns out there really wasn't any good guy in this story. The investigation was kicked off only after one of the members of the Kill Team was beaten by the other members of the unit and the bruises were discovered by a doctor. However, the beating wasn't because he was ratting them out because of the killings. It was because everyone used his room to get high in and he was afraid he'd get busted because of the smell. He went to the sergeant on duty to explain this and it got out that he had betrayed his teammates.

Crap double post.

I highly recommend everyone checks out the Rolling Stone article. The Der Speigel article doesn't show the most shocking images and blurs a lot out. Actually seeing the mutliated face of the poor kid these guys murdered will make your blood boil. And there are also photos of American soldiers having fun with a chopped off head and blown off feet. Truly gruesome stuff. There's absolutely, positively no way to defend this kind of behavior, unless you happen to be Hitler or Ghengis Khan.

These guys need to be lined up against a wall and shot if found guilty. Of course Morlock is getting only 24 years and will probably be out in 7. I have no doubt that most of the kill team will eventually be paroled.

If you've seen the Michael J Fox Casualties of War movie where a Vietnam squad raped and murdered a young girl, you'll see that those soldiers got "life" sentences. What the movie doesn't mention is that those f#$#tards were all paroled within 10 years.

I highly recommend everyone checks out the Rolling Stone article. The Der Speigel article doesn't show the most shocking images and blurs a lot out. Actually seeing the mutliated face of the poor kid these guys murdered will make your blood boil. And there are also photos of American soldiers having fun with a chopped off head and blown off feet. Truly gruesome stuff. There's absolutely, positively no way to defend this kind of behavior, unless you happen to be Hitler or Ghengis Khan.

Is it only because some of these people were innocent that it's so wrong? If they were confirmed insurgents, would it just be sort of wrong then?

MaverickDago wrote:

Is it only because some of these people were innocent that it's so wrong? If they were confirmed insurgents, would it just be sort of wrong then?

If you believe every insurgent we've killed in Iraq and Afghanistan was actually an insurgent then I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.

It's wrong on so many levels. It's wrong because American soldiers actually committed at least three premeditated murders of people they were ordered to protect. It's wrong because the article reveals that this unit wasn't the only unit to knowingly kill civilians. It's wrong because it revealed rampant drug abuse by US soldiers, even while they were on patrol. It's wrong because it shows that even when a soldier went to his superior officer and said "X killed civilians" nothing was done. It's wrong because American soldiers acted no better than prison inmates or gang members and turned on one of their own. It's wrong because the willfully evil actions of these soldiers went a very long way to completely undo the $6 billion or so a month of borrowed taxpayer money we're dropping in Afghanistan. And it's wrong because those numb nuts have just guaranteed that more civilians will become insurgents and try to kill their brothers-in-arms.

So everything that's happened before, and will always happen in these sort of situations? I get how "wrong" it is, but it's the cost of playing policeman with people who shouldn't be playing policeman.

MaverickDago wrote:

So everything that's happened before, and will always happen in these sort of situations? I get how "wrong" it is, but it's the cost of playing policeman with people who shouldn't be playing policeman.

Again, then it's the failure of the military to adapt to it's new mission. Whether the brass likes it or not, counterinsurgency and nation building has been the military's primary mission for nearly a decade now. If you're saying that soldiers are incapable of conducting a counterinsurgency then we best admit that and get the hell out of Afghanistan.

Again, then it's the failure of the military to adapt to it's new mission. Whether the brass likes it or not, counterinsurgency and nation building has been the military's primary mission for nearly a decade now. If you're saying that soldiers are incapable of conducting a counterinsurgency then we best admit that and get the hell out of Afghanistan.

Yes, you're mainstream troops can NOT do the job, they've never been able to, and never will. You can't take most 18-20's and expect them to not grow to hate, to resent these people, it just doesn't work that way. "Nation building" doesn't work, it hasn't and it can't. You can have cops or soldiers, YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH.

MaverickDago wrote:
Again, then it's the failure of the military to adapt to it's new mission. Whether the brass likes it or not, counterinsurgency and nation building has been the military's primary mission for nearly a decade now. If you're saying that soldiers are incapable of conducting a counterinsurgency then we best admit that and get the hell out of Afghanistan.

Yes, you're mainstream troops can NOT do the job, they've never been able to, and never will. You can't take most 18-20's and expect them to not grow to hate, to resent these people, it just doesn't work that way. "Nation building" doesn't work, it hasn't and it can't. You can have cops or soldiers, YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH.

Then our foreign policy for the past decade has been a lie and we've thrown away $1.2 trillion and counting.

OG_slinger wrote:
MaverickDago wrote:
Again, then it's the failure of the military to adapt to it's new mission. Whether the brass likes it or not, counterinsurgency and nation building has been the military's primary mission for nearly a decade now. If you're saying that soldiers are incapable of conducting a counterinsurgency then we best admit that and get the hell out of Afghanistan.

Yes, you're mainstream troops can NOT do the job, they've never been able to, and never will. You can't take most 18-20's and expect them to not grow to hate, to resent these people, it just doesn't work that way. "Nation building" doesn't work, it hasn't and it can't. You can have cops or soldiers, YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH.

Then our foreign policy for the past decade has been a lie and we've thrown away $1.2 trillion and counting.

IMAGE(http://www.omni-ts.com/_common/img/winner.jpg)

Tanglebones wrote:

Picture

It's funny because it's true.

KrazyTacoFO wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Picture

It's sad because it's true.

I fixed that for you.

Then our foreign policy for the past decade has been a lie and we've thrown away $1.2 trillion and counting.

What did you expect? Everyone here has been saying the same things for years, yet when we see actual proof of it, everyone gets their fur up, really?

Bear wrote:
KrazyTacoFO wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Picture

It's sad because it's true which then makes it funny

I fixed that for you.

Fixed it one more time.

Years ago, I intimated that this would happen and that this will continue to happen. Most Americans will not believe it. It's not that they don't. They will not. Unless actual photos are provided, then it's just not true. If photos are provided, then it's an isolated incident. If a pattern is shown, then it's because of this one person, who's just an individual. If more than one individual or groups is involved, then it's just an anomaly happening in one location.

Americans do not want to think that their own "boys" as psychopathic murderers and rapists, and will go to great lengths to preserve that belief, even to the point of doubting photo evidence.

The rest of the world does not operate under that bias. I've talked with a fair number of women (and men) from the Olongapo and Angeles areas (places where US bases were once located). Military personnel there were known to go out of their bases to rape women, or to knowingly patronize white slavery rings. In the Philippine-American War, soldiers were told to hunt down every single individual, man, worman, and child and to depopulate the island of Samar. These sorts of impressions last.

If you are an American soldier on duty or will go on duty, you must understand one thing: the behavior of your army in the past and in the present has painted a sign on your back that tells everyone who isn't American (possibly Western) that YOU are a rapist and a murderer. The best chance you have to garner goodwill in a foreign occupation is to police ignorant folks and convince them that you are their murderer as well.

Every time an incident like this occurs, and the US soldiers involved aren't drawn and quartered, the image is reinforced. It didn't need to go through Das Spiegel or Rolling Stones. Those villagers knew the truth of what happened, and they will tell everyone who cares to listen, through whatever means they can.

I am not a US soldier, but if I were, I'd have asked for public and severe punishment for Kill Team. It would have been important to me to tell Afghans emphatically that those soldiers were NOT me, as they would be doing now, given what's happened. The actions of Kill Team and the behavior of the US Army in the incident has painted you a particular way, whether or not you decide to accept the truth of it.

LarryC wrote:

Years ago, I intimated that this would happen and that this will continue to happen. Most Americans will not believe it. It's not that they don't. They will not. Unless actual photos are provided, then it's just not true. If photos are provided, then it's an isolated incident. If a pattern is shown, then it's because of this one person, who's just an individual. If more than one individual or groups is involved, then it's just an anomaly happening in one location.

Americans do not want to think that their own "boys" as psychopathic murderers and rapists, and will go to great lengths to preserve that belief, even to the point of doubting photo evidence.

The rest of the world does not operate under that bias. I've talked with a fair number of women (and men) from the Olongapo and Angeles areas (places where US bases were once located). Military personnel there were known to go out of their bases to rape women, or to knowingly patronize white slavery rings. In the Philippine-American War, soldiers were told to hunt down every single individual, man, worman, and child and to depopulate the island of Samar. These sorts of impressions last.

If you are an American soldier on duty or will go on duty, you must understand one thing: the behavior of your army in the past and in the present has painted a sign on your back that tells everyone who isn't American (possibly Western) that YOU are a rapist and a murderer. The best chance you have to garner goodwill in a foreign occupation is to police ignorant folks and convince them that you are their murderer as well.

Every time an incident like this occurs, and the US soldiers involved aren't drawn and quartered, the image is reinforced. It didn't need to go through Das Spiegel or Rolling Stones. Those villagers knew the truth of what happened, and they will tell everyone who cares to listen, through whatever means they can.

I am not a US soldier, but if I were, I'd have asked for public and severe punishment for Kill Team. It would have been important to me to tell Afghans emphatically that those soldiers were NOT me, as they would be doing now, given what's happened. The actions of Kill Team and the behavior of the US Army in the incident has painted you a particular way, whether or not you decide to accept the truth of it.

While your location obviously explains your viewpoint on US soldiers, to call it worldwide opinion that they are "rapists and murders" is just wrong. Having traveled around the world, most impressions are positive, if not down right glowing. For the most part (99%) of soldiers are soldiers, and do their job. Yes, there are rapists and murders, just like there are rapists and murders in society, because a volunteer military is a subset of it's society, with the good and the bad.

Things like this kill team are horrible, and are textbook situations of groupthink creating a little vile pocket of humanity. But far more people have received food or water from the US military than been raped by them. It doesn't make the world hate us, as this makes the most news in the US, and other cultures see it the same way they see people who cause problems in their culture - obviously mentally unstable people and not representatives of the whole.

Shoal07 wrote:

While your location obviously explains your viewpoint on US soldiers, to call it worldwide opinion that they are "rapists and murders" is just wrong. Having traveled around the world, most impressions are positive, if not down right glowing. For the most part (99%) of soldiers are soldiers, and do their job. Yes, there are rapists and murders, just like there are rapists and murders in society, because a volunteer military is a subset of it's society, with the good and the bad.

Things like this kill team are horrible, and are textbook situations of groupthink creating a little vile pocket of humanity. But far more people have received food or water from the US military than been raped by them. It doesn't make the world hate us, as this makes the most news in the US, and other cultures see it the same way they see people who cause problems in their culture - obviously mentally unstable people and not representatives of the whole.

Case in point.

Having traveled around the world, most impressions are positive, if not down right glowing.

Out of interest, how recent were those travels, and in what areas?

Malor wrote:
Having traveled around the world, most impressions are positive, if not down right glowing.

Out of interest, how recent were those travels, and in what areas?

More to the point, who is he and how did he gather his information? Let's say there's this Filipino town in the Mindanao area that's safe because the US military has been conducting medical missions in that area. Regardless of how the people actually feel, they won't tell anyone they perceive as of a party to US militaries that that military is anything other than the best thing since sliced bread.

In point of fact, I am aware of this difference between actual opinion and feedback because this is a relatively common divide in the less populated portions of the islands. They'll tell you anything they think you want to hear as long as benefits follow. Mercenary, but realistic.

Malor wrote:
Having traveled around the world, most impressions are positive, if not down right glowing.

Out of interest, how recent were those travels, and in what areas?

It's getting hard to find a place we haven't bombed or invaded...