This is from the other thread that I refuse to post in, even if others can't read that even the original poster asked for the thread to be ignored
DKP is a tool, there's another factor in the equation which is the people running the raid, who can either fairly overrule the points scheme, or screw over people and give loot to their friends.
GWJ has used EPGP in the past for its progression. If they were to adopt another system (DKP / EPGP / Other) it would most likely be EPGP again. For those that are unaware of how EPGP works I will explain.
Points are assigned for certain activities. These are just examples and not necessarily how an end product would be.
- Show up on time - 15 points
- Kill a boss - 50 points
- Stay for the original duration of the raid - 15 points
These points make up your earned points or effort points (or EP)
Points are also assigned for loot. For example
- Sword of awesome - 100 points
- Cloak of magicstuff - 65 points
These points make up your gear points (or GP). Gear is point weighted by item level and category (weapons cost more points than gear for example)
Raid starts and everyone shows up on time. 2 bosses are downed. Everyone stays til end of raid.
Each person in the raid just earned 130 points
Boss 1 dropped sword of awesome - it went to a DPS for 100 points.
Boss 2 dropped cloak of magicstuff - it went to a healer for 65 points.
So at the end of the night (lets just assume fresh start for math sake) 8 players in the raid have 130 ep and 0 gp. Their ratio (EP / GP) is 130. The DPS that won the sword has EP 130 GP 100 or ratio 1.3. The healer that won the cloak has EP 130 and GP 65 or ration 2. So going into the next raid night, those other 8 players have a huge advantage over the people that already won stuff. As points are spent, it will bring people closer and closer together in ratios.
Addons are used to track EPGP. It is not handled by manual calculation. Prices on items are fixed. There is no random assignment of cost. The same addons used to track EPGP by raid leaders are available to all guild members so the full EPGP priority of each raid member is known at all times. No one can say that someone is ahead of you if that is not the case, you will be able to verify it. There is no other factor in the equation. The raid leaders, in the case of how I've ever seen it run and that includes GWJ) can not overturn the highest priority for any reason*. When raid leaders are chosen, they will be chosen because they know how to run a raid and follow rules set forward by the guild.
*The only one rule that is used is that EPGP gives priority to main specs over alt specs. For example, a pally tank could not spend his points on healing or dps gear unless all healers/dps passed on the gear.
This is an example of an addon used to track EPGP. If you look at the picture you can see a full roster of people with EPGP and sort by priority.
Im just trying to explain this because it seems like so many people have misinformation about the systems that may be implemented.
A few thoughts I started posting over in the other thread:
Anything that creates a notion of "first string" and "second string" raid members is not conducive to building a better team.
This is something I too feel very strongly, and is a reason why for a very long time I was strongly against anything other than our basic priority/need based loot distribution system. However, I am one of many people who was indeed impressed by how smoothly our implementation of EPGP worked for the half a year or so that we used it. If you aren't familiar with what makes it different from other DKP systems, it's worth taking a look on WoW Wiki. In practice, even with 25 people around, nearly every single piece that dropped went to exactly who it would have under the priority/need system, and the only things that didn't were super rare trinkets or weapons. And you know what? No one ever ended up upset about how those were distributed, which I certainly can't say regarding the same type up loot in a priority/need based open roll system, because the EPGP system let everyone know that the person taking any given piece of the loot had given a lot of effort to the group but hadn't taken a lot back.
As Scratched says, it's all about how it is implemented. It also is all about how raids are scheduled and organized, since for it to feel truly fair for everyone involved, everyone needs to feel like they had an equal chance at earning points in the first place. That is probably the biggest reason I feel like a loot system other than priority/need works much more easily when you are doing 25 man content -- scheduling raids is already a big enough hassle when all you need to worry about is the success of the run, but with 10 mans there needs to also be thought about maintaining fairness (and tracking points!) in the loot system.
If the content was hard enough that there was no way to get through it without having a dedicated team that always got the best loot, then I'd agree; reward the best contributors. But it's just not that hard.
So here's the thing: when the content is new, it actually is that hard, even for a group that is working together well and consists of exceptionally talented players. This is why in my posts about raid scheduling earlier in this thread I spent so much time agonizing over trying to explain why while we very much want to be as inclusive as possible with regard to raid scheduling, we do have to balance that with concerns about putting together a successful raids until we have enough experience and yes, enough players with good gear, so that we can put together more inclusive groups and get players of all types in raids that can have a fun time fighting new bosses and getting new loot.
So yeah, it's a very tough call. As I briefly mentioned previously, I do think there would be great value in getting EPGP running again if we end up doing 25 man content again, since it is very easy for it to feel fair there. If we stick to just 10 mans, though, I'm not sure the administrative overhead of making it feel fair is worth what gains it would give us -- especially since those rare situations (mostly regarding rare trinkets ) where there is an incredibly useful piece that could end up being /rolled to a player who will end up not continuing to contribute in a meaningful way to the success of the guild come up even less often.
One additional thought, to perhaps help build some clarity about our intent here.
GWJ's approach to raiding is a bit different than most other guilds in that we have two goals:
1. Get as many players as possible involved with as much end game raiding content.
2. Let as many of those players who want to and have the capability to do end game raiding content while it is new and challenging.
The odd thing is that while goal 2 may seem in conflict with goal 1, if done right it goal 2 actually serves as a means to achieving goal 1 more quickly and on a bigger scale. So while many people use a loot system exclusively as a way to help reward the people who participate in their version of goal 2, the big reason why we even spend any time worrying about it is because we want to make sure we can achieve both those goals and let everyone have as much fun as possible.
The guild exists so that GWJers can help other GWJers can enjoy WoW together, and as long as all we remember that, we can make almost any choice serve that our collective enjoyment of the game.
The trouble GWJ has had with loot over the last 5 years is truly remarkable.
The trouble GWJ has had with loot over the last 5 years is truly remarkable.
I think that this is a bad assesment. GWJ has always been a different guild than those based on progression. It's actually pretty impressive how we have handled progression versus how inclusive our guild is. Because of this, we've had to adjust how we handle certain aspects of our raiding, a big portion being how we handle loot. What we did a three years ago wouldn't work a year ago because we had a totally different raid structure, just like how we handle raiding a year ago would not work now. The fact that we have chosen to discuss the way we handle something like loot over an open forum is a testament to how we want to have a very clear and respectful way of handling our guild. Clarity is important and I hope that the guild respects that Grindars has chosen not to make this decision with only officers but including the guild as a whole in handling this topic as well as the other topics he has listed in his original post.
Let's make sure that we have constructive discussion on all the subjects he has brought up and avoid going down the road of focusing/flaming one aspect of this thread.
EPGP works. Works better when the individual member makes the effort to access the information, so they can be aware of who has what points, what priority and what things cost. That's dependent on that player making the effort to familiarize themselves with the system, though, and the problems I've seen with EPGP happen when people won't make that effort, then start assuming 'people' are 'cheating'. This is the only system I've used where how often you raid isn't a penalty.
For clarity, 'Loot councils' should be renamed 'drama councils'. Never seen one work, always gonna be someone upset.
Pure randoms rolls, per raid? No. Just no. Been personally screwed over by them, and seen waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much trouble caused by them.
Hey guys, let's just ignore it. Don't give the comments any validity by dignifying it by a response. Some people live on negativity and that's not the direction our guild or discussions should be going.
Is there an official stance on foul language in gchat? Noticed a fair amount lately. Though it doesn't offend me in any way, I know others may be a little more sensitive to it.
[size=6]I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls...[/size]
Is there an official stance on foul language in gchat? Noticed a fair amount lately. Though it doesn't offend me in any way, I know others may be a little more sensitive to it.
Generally frowned upon as there's more then a few Gamers with Kids.
ELewis17 wrote:Is there an official stance on foul language in gchat? Noticed a fair amount lately. Though it doesn't offend me in any way, I know others may be a little more sensitive to it.
Generally frowned upon as there's more then a few Gamers with Kids.
And thats why there are profanity filters.
MikeMac wrote:ELewis17 wrote:Is there an official stance on foul language in gchat? Noticed a fair amount lately. Though it doesn't offend me in any way, I know others may be a little more sensitive to it.
Generally frowned upon as there's more then a few Gamers with Kids.
And thats why there are profanity filters.
A profanity filter is a poor excuse for a lack of respect, especially in this community where respect is so important.
I don't care too much about foul language myself especially in the right company. I do think however that the gwj community is fairly clean and respectful and the wow guild should probably reflect that.
TrashiDawa wrote:MikeMac wrote:ELewis17 wrote:Is there an official stance on foul language in gchat? Noticed a fair amount lately. Though it doesn't offend me in any way, I know others may be a little more sensitive to it.
Generally frowned upon as there's more then a few Gamers with Kids.
And thats why there are profanity filters.
A profanity filter is a poor excuse for a lack of respect, especially in this community where respect is so important.
I don't care too much about foul language myself especially in the right company. I do think however that the gwj community is fairly clean and respectful and the wow guild should probably reflect that.
This is already a non-issue. I have never seen anything in guild chat that exceeds PG-13 standards. If you watch trade or global for 45 seconds you will see more offensive content that anything that has been said in the history of GJW Alliance guild chat.
My response was 90% joke (I couldn't resist when Zeered is defining the moral compass), and 10% push-back against any potential censuring rules for guild chat (regardless of how unlikely it may be). There may be a stray kid or two around but GWJ has always been geared to older folks and we should be able to get away with behavior and language any reasonable person would expect in an adult environment...like a pub...
I am not going to do the 1-7 list as this thread seems to be all over the place.
I am fine with whatever the guild decides and am just happy to be part of a family style setting such as this guild.
I will say in my 5-6 years(how many years are we going on) in WoW I have participated in MANY loot systems. The one negative thing I will say for DKP is not spending. I feel it is a waste of gear and I hate when the first bosses Axe get DE'ed because the 4th boss has a mace that is better and I do not want to have to spend points twice. Also, the same as saving for that trinket you want so you do not spend. That is awesome if that is the item you want and you want to save for it, however you are only hurting the entire raid by letting gear get DE'ed.
The reason I bring this up, is smaller raids (10 mans) mean less people to take gear. If I am a warrior dps and I REALLY want the 1h Axe from Boss 4. Boss 1, 2, and 3 all drop plate DPS gear that night that I let rot becuase i want to save for the axe.
My point, is less people means saving for an item could REALLY mess things up.
I personally would be all for the DKP system as they are fair and prevent the QQs. I just wanted to make the point due to the 10 man size.
*EDIT* I will say my toon will be Openminded (enhancement shaman)
I am not going to do the 1-7 list as this thread seems to be all over the place.
I am fine with whatever the guild decides and am just happy to be part of a family style setting such as this guild.
I will say in my 5-6 years(how many years are we going on) in WoW I have participated in MANY loot systems. The one negative thing I will say for DKP is not spending. I feel it is a waste of gear and I hate when the first bosses Axe get DE'ed because the 4th boss has a mace that is better and I do not want to have to spend points twice. Also, the same as saving for that trinket you want so you do not spend. That is awesome if that is the item you want and you want to save for it, however you are only hurting the entire raid by letting gear get DE'ed.
The reason I bring this up, is smaller raids (10 mans) mean less people to take gear. If I am a warrior dps and I REALLY want the 1h Axe from Boss 4. Boss 1, 2, and 3 all drop plate DPS gear that night that I let rot becuase i want to save for the axe.
My point, is less people means saving for an item could REALLY mess things up.
I personally would be all for the DKP system as they are fair and prevent the QQs. I just wanted to make the point due to the 10 man size.
*EDIT* I will say my toon will be Openminded (enhancement shaman)
One thing to point out about 25 man and 10 man
[quote=Bean]
Actually, the discussion is on 10 man content as well. We likely won't have many nights with 25 raid ready players. Now that 10 man and 25 man drop the same ilevel loot, I would expect our focus to stay on more manageable 10 man groups. The players in 10 man groups need to be raid ready as well. With the boost in ilevel (allowing 10 man to drop same loot as 25 man) blizz has stated that 10 man content should see difficulty get turned up a notch or two from the differences seen pre-Cata.
I would also like to add that my experience with DKP / EPGP systems is 100% the opposite of BadKen. I have never had a bad experience with any of those systems. I have been part of casual and hard core raiding guilds. All of the guilds that scheduled progression runs used some sort of DKP / EPGP system. Even GWJ used EPGP for there progression 25 mans, but with the great change of 10 man loot having same ilevel, 10 man will be now be considered progression and we should adjust loot rules accordingly.
I'm going to echo Cheeto's sentiments and say that I'm fine with whatever the collective decides as far as looting systems.
I'll be happy to bring Pepys to any raid I'm invited to.
The only thing I would add to an EPGP discussion is that we should strongly consider wiping points with every new tier. For the most part, EPGP worked flawlessly, but there were several legitimate complaints raised to me that the individuals involved didn't want to bring into the forums. Point wiping every tier may have solved them.
As long as I get the best loot every time I wont throw a tantrum.
On a serious (hardly serious, but...) note: rare drops such as mounts, big sacks and pets are always on open roll regardless of what loot system we use, correct?
That's how it was.
Point wiping every tier may have solved them.
I think that would probably be the way we would implement the system.
rare drops such as mounts, big sacks and pets are always on open roll regardless of what loot system we use, correct?
That has consistently been the way we handled things.
1. Raid Nights: Tuesday anytime. Sunday ... IF the Sunday raid started an hour earlier ... and ended at 10:00 eastern time that would be great.
2. Loot rules: EPGP SUCKS unless you are able to run the raid every time it is offered. Doing EPGP for those who can only run a few times a month is simply not worth it. ROLL for all loot but ... make some kind of "rule" that you cannot get an item until you have raided three times. EPGP means that the occassional raider is simply helping the well armored get even better armored ... the rich getting richer. It leads to Guild striff and is NEVER FAIR to the Guildmate that cannot run all the time.
3. Raid leaders: Thanks.
4. Guild achievements: Whatever happens would be good.
5. Officers: Thanks.
6. Expectations: Treat everyone the same ... EVERYONE!
7. Main toon: Eppyrose (Druid Healer) or Dannymiss (Priest Healer - Holy)
PS: Thanks Knightly for your format ... a little cut, paste and typeovers made responding to this post a lot easier.
EPGP SUCKS unless you are able to run the raid every time it is offered. Doing EPGP for those who can only run a few times a month is simply not worth it. ROLL for all loot but ... make some kind of "rule" that you cannot get an item until you have raided three times. EPGP means that the occassional raider is simply helping the well armored get even better armored ... the rich getting richer. It leads to Guild striff and is NEVER FAIR to the Guildmate that cannot run all the time.
EPGP (or any loot system that isn't essentially an open roll) does indeed make it so people who have put more time/effort into the guild's raiding progress (but have NOT gotten much out of it) do get priority over those who have put less time in (and have gotten more out of it). This is actually the exact reason why many people desire such a loot system -- to help make sure time and effort is fairly rewarded outside the context of a single raiding night. So in that regard you are absolutely correct: loot systems are designed to give priority to those who are able to participate more often but have not received much in the way of reward for that effort.
Where you are incorrect is in your argument that EPGP prevents a more casual/less frequent raiders from getting loot from a run, or somehow makes raiding fruitless for such people. Other loot systems may do so, but EPGP is specifically designed so that the math that determines a person's loot priority doesn't allow a player to take all the loot from a run just because they have are a very active raider. If they are very active AND they haven't gotten much it does give them first choice of loot, but unless it has been a VERY long time since they have received any loot from a raid, other players (including those who don't raid very often, or are very new to the loot system) will almost always have priority over them once they do take a piece of gear.
You know how on a given night of raiding, people will make an effort to pass on a piece of loot to a player who hasn't received something that night? The design of EPGP is to make it so you can exercise that concept over continuous nights of raiding. When boiled down, EPGP is just a complex mathematical approach to answering the question "who hasn't gotten much loot recently?"
From the research I've done, it's probably the closest a loot system could ever get to achieving both the goal of giving respect to the hard work of frequent raiders AND the goal still being inclusive and friendly to those with less time to devote to the game.
(It does, however, incur an amount of administrative overhead that I'm still not convinced is worthwhile in a 10 man setting.)
Tool.
Tool.
+1
Anyhow. How about arenas, no loot drama in PVP, you pay your own way. Just me yelling about where were you as that rogue was kicking me around and stabbing me like a pincushion.
Ask not what GWJ can do for you, ask what you can do for GWJ.
Tool.
>.>
<.<
Tool, you say?
DONE.
forty-six & 2[/i]]
My shadow's
shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding inMy shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured withinMy shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.
EPGP SUCKS unless you are able to run the raid every time it is offered. Doing EPGP for those who can only run a few times a month is simply not worth it. ROLL for all loot but ... make some kind of "rule" that you cannot get an item until you have raided three times. EPGP means that the occassional raider is simply helping the well armored get even better armored ... the rich getting richer. It leads to Guild striff and is NEVER FAIR to the Guildmate that cannot run all the time.
It is actually quite fair in that those that work harder towards a goal are appropriately rewarded for their hard work.
You wouldn't work for a company where the newest or laziest employee had a shot at the highest paycheck just by simply showing up.
If you want to see open roll, just wait for farm status on runs. Chances are good that the people that are carrying the run won't need anything anyway.
...those that work harder towards a goal are appropriately rewarded for their hard work.
I'm 100% for a loot system that strives to accomplish this.
Where would MMOs be without loot drama?
I'm just chipping in to say that I'm OK with whatever system is decided on, so long as it is clearly explained before it is implemented and it is adhered to thereafter. Making "special exceptions just this one time" is something I've seen throw guilds into a death spiral of angst and greed.
I doubt it's going to be much of an issue for me personally in any event. I'm just not in a place in life where I have time or desire to grind the five man runs for 6 hours a day to get the gear needed for entry level Cataclysm raids in the first month or two. I'll be there to help whenever I can, but in the event that the ambitions of the guild's progression raiders outstrip my performance then I'll sit on the sidelines wishing them well.
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