WOW GWJ ALLIANCE GUILD Primer for CATA- (please members only post) UPDATED 11/30

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Hello everyone-

We are less than one month away from the new expansion. With that being said, it raises questions to what will we be doing and how will we interact. I wanted to post a bit of info for everyone to digest and respond to accordingly. We need to decide as a guild how we wish to proceed into the new content. All information is up for discussion.

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

We will see what works for everyone as we get closer to raiding as a 10 man or 25 man group.

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild.

This is gonna be a long part, but I hope you like it.

When Alts Become Mains

We will maintain the normal priority system of Mains > Alts with some exceptions. If the Raid Scheduler for the week chooses your alt for a raid in order to either balance the raid or to make the raid viable, then your alt is considered a main for that raid. If the Raid Leader asks you to switch toons in order to optimize the raid for either the entire night or one fight, then your alt is considered a main. No one will get 2nd class treatment for helping out.

Any Alts with Main status will be announced at the start of the raid or when a roster change is made on the fly.

Same rules will be applied where someone is asked to participate using their off spec - we ask a dps to heal, tank to dps, etc. For example if we ask someone like Littleirish to heal on a fight, he still gets normal dps main spec consideration for any loot.

We don't want people constantly changing mains/roles. We want to build up a strong player base and that means having consistent main spec mains that are getting gear. That being said, we do want people to play what they enjoy, so if you find you hate your toon/role in Cat, let us know!

EPGP
We will use EPGP to track participation. A modest amount of EP will be awarded to everyone who shows up on time for the raid. A similar amount will be awarded at the end of the raid for sticking it out. If we are working on progression content, additional EP may be awarded to reflect the extra time/gold/consumables put into the raid.

We will only use EPGP to award Weapons and Trinkets. If there is a rare item that's not a Weapon or Trinket, we can address that as things progress. We want people to take armor upgrades as we move through a dungeon instead of saving their roll/EP/whatever for Weapon X on the final boss.

Whenever a boss drops a Weapon or Trinket we'll ask people to indicate if they're interested (mains > alts, main spec > off spec) and assign the item based on the interested parties EPGP ratio. Whomever wins the item is charge appropriate GP (100% for main spec, 50% for offspec) and everyone is awarded a set amount of EP. If the item is disenchanted, no EP is awarded and no GP is charged.

EPGP and Alts vs. Mains
We will only assign EP and GP to main toons - essentially you'll have one running EP and GP tally for your account. If you bring an alt for any reason to a raid, then any earned EP or spent GP will be credited to your main. Remember, an alt will only earn EP if the raid leader has asked you to come on that toon for the sake of the guild. This elevates them to main toon status for that run and you are awarded points. If you run as an alt of your own free will, you gain no EP for that run but still have the opportunity to get gear based off our priority system.

EPGP Decay & Resets
In order to avoid a situation where long time raiders have gigantic leads over any new comers, we will reset the EPGP standings in between raid tiers. When 4.1 shows up, we'll reset EPGP, when 4.2 shows up, we'll reset EPGP, etc.

Within each raid tier cycle we'll have EPGP setup to decay over time so that as we're working through content it's less likely people will have massive amounts of banked EP. This allows frequent raiders to maintain a modest lead, infrequent raiders to not end up hopelessly behind and prevents people who take a few months off from coming back with the same standing.

Infrequent and new raiders should also remember that there's a good chance the fancy Weapon/Trinket you want will go to you uncontested as other people in the raid already have it.

EPGP will only be used for current tier raids. When 4.1 comes out, 4.0 raids will no longer use EPGP.

Non Weapon/Trinket items

This will be handled completely independently of any EPGP activities. We will maintain the usual 1 epic per run, main spec > off spec, main > alt and we'll continue to apply "When Alts Become Mains". The only time 1 epic per run is really used is when we have two parties who are both Mains on their Main spec interested in an item and one of them has already received 1 or more epics and the other hasn't. We're not going to disenchant stuff or give an item to an offspec or alt just because you received your epic already. We gear a Main's main spec as fairly as possible, and off spec/alts get the leftovers.

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

We will see how everything plays out, but I don't want us to have set teams. We need to learn to play with everyone.

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

They will come as we play. If we are close to something, we might post it in the raid schedule for a guild activity.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

We have restructured the guild titles and I am happy with the amount of officers at this time. We will monitor the guild needs and make adjustments as needed. Yes, I am a tool.

6. Expectations- This is a big one for me. I'm sure you have all read "be good to each other". I tend to write that all the time, but I really mean it. I will hold anyone in the guild accountable for their actions. This is the one thing that I tend to get a bit fired up about, if others are treating people poorly. Other expectations are to learn your class to the best of your ability, give what you can when you play, be prepared for the content you will be participating in with others, and ask questions if you don't know. When we raid, your actions impact many others, so please understand that it is important to be prepared. Additionally, we want you to have fun. It is a game, right?

I believe we have had a good bit of interaction with the new folks and the old folks. Respect is present in all the interactions. Be mindful of our "family" atmosphere, keep the adultish content to late in the evening and be respectful in your comments. Also, keep asking questions about your class, learn and have fun.

7. Main toon- there is a post for this already, but I will be making a guild roster with toon / forum name and role for people to view.

Make sure your main toon is elevated to that title in the guild ranks. Additionally, put your forum name on your alts info so we know who you are. This is important for raiding as you've read above in the loot rules. I don't care who you bring to level 85 to raid, but I don't want folks swapping mains after we have outfitted your toon. We need geared folks to accomplish tasks. Pick a main if you plan to raid the tier content.

8. Other items I may have missed- I will add to the list above if people throw out ideas that need to be discussed.

Guild bank is a work in progress. Many thanks to Belias and Zeered for keeping that thing semi organized. Mains have been increased in their amounts they can take out. Please keep the random easy to get stuff out of there. If you don't know if you should put it in the bank, ask or don't put it in. More to come on how we will organize it.

Post away folks. Open to ideas and conversation.

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

My only concern with moving to a set raid/event night model from our standard "match the availability" model is that if we aren't careful we might miss a opportunity to create a new event at a new time because we don't have the chance to see that X number of people are available at Y time. For example, the "Late Night" raid group that ran during 3.1 might have missed seeing the opportunity to do so had they not been seeing a lot of people posting "9 to 12" rather than "7 to 10" in the scheduling thread.

That said, having set event nights certainly takes one layer of organizational nightmare out of the picture, which I am 100% for, especially since the nights and times you've laid out here seem to work for a good many people (myself included). So perhaps the short version of what I'm saying here is, "I like the sound of that, but let's be as open as possible to creating other event times if people want them."

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild.

Well, the big question I have here is whether we will be trying to do 25 man content, or simply doing multiple 10s when/if we have that many bodies, because to me our standard "one epic per run then don't be a DB /roll" method seems to be more than acceptable for 10 man runs, but something like the EPGP system we used in for a while does make sense for 25s. In fact, while there are many good reasons to just stick to 10s, this is one of the biggest arguments I can see for it; not having to worry about loot drama quite so much.

Of course, there will always be things like rare trinkets or weapons that will still have the ability to cause hard feelings in an essentially open roll raid (ie, rare trinket goes to player on their first raid over an active raider who has been instrumental in progression). And honestly, I don't really know that there is a good/fair way to deal with that in an open roll scenario, but I do know that 95% of the time it's probably a lot more fun to not have everyone worrying about managing/working within a complex loot system (even one that is as egalitarian and fair as EPGP).

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

I have no idea. Having set teams definitely has some attractive pros, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go for a guild like ours.

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

No opinion. I'm always happy when I get achievements in the normal course of play, and I enjoy helping people hunt them, but it's not anything I'm super concerned about.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

Your approach of getting as many voices involved in decision making as possible seems like a good one. That's more or less all the input I have here, I'm afraid.

Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night.

How about Wednesday, Friday and Saturday for PvP nights to take advantage of the weekend events. If there is serious interest in BG groups we could consider some organized premades.

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild.

We are back to a small raiding group so DBaD will get us a long way. This worked pretty well for us when we started raiding Nax in the early days of Wrath but some people will inevitably get shafted despite our best intentions so there should be a little flexibility. Maybe we can make it clear that the raid leader has final say on loot and can override rolls if rare gear can go to key guild contributor.

Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

Teams are going to come together whether we explicitly define them or not. The raid leaders are going to naturally put together A teams and B teams for runs.

I am completely overwhelmed at this as I havent really been involved in a game that required all this planning. I am a casual gamer with a family (and a new baby) and I want to participate sometimes but wont be there on any regular schedule. Am I going to be able to play like that or is being involved on that level require a large time commitment?

Broke it off into a new post because I was worried about losing the text, and it's a big enough topic to deserve it I think.

6. Expectations- This is a big one for me. I'm sure you have all read "be good to each other". I tend to write that all the time, but I really mean it. I will hold anyone in the guild accountable for their actions. This is the one thing that I tend to get a bit fired up about, if others are treating people poorly.

I'm one of those silly, optimistic sorts that believes that deep down most folks are genuinely good people who want to treat each other with kindness and respect, but sometimes situations arise that make it hard to do so. One of the big reasons why I accepted when I was asked to be an officer is that I felt like my voice could help others remember that fact when such situations arise. Most of the time, a calm, honest, friendly conversation is all that necessary to help smooth over hard feelings. Very often it might be more challenging to engage each other in that way instead of being angry, or dismissive, or overly proud, but the end result of keeping (or gaining!) a friend rather than potentially losing one seems more than worth the effort to me.

So yes, while we don't ask much of guild members in a lot of other ways, I think there is great value in asking a lot of people in this one regard: be good to each other, and when conflict does arise (and it will, certainly), please handle it in an adult, respectful, and friendly way regardless of who the conflict is with, so that we can all get back to doing what we want to be doing as quickly as possible rather than spending a lot of time sorting out the conflicts of others.

Other expectations are to learn your class to the best of your ability, give what you can when you play, be prepared for the content you will be participating in with others, and ask questions if you don't know. When we raid, your actions impact many others, so please understand that it is important to be prepared. Additionally, we want you to have fun. It is a game, right?

This actually brings up one of the biggest challenges that the officers and raid leaders have to deal with on a regular basis when it comes to living up to the guild motto: when organizing raids, we have a responsibility to be good to the people who are prepared for raids to make sure their time isn't wasted due to other raid members being unprepared. At the same time, we have a responsibility to be good to players who aren't prepared by helping them recognize this fact and fix it (if they want to and have the ability to), and to do this in a direct, honest, constructive way so that as much as possible we can be inclusive of everyone who wants to enjoy the game with us.

This is hard to do, period.

So here's the thing: many times, it feels like the easiest thing to do is to just not include people in runs when they aren't prepared for them. This is less than ideal, but for pure logistical reasons it is sometimes necessary when putting together a run at progression content. But there are two things I'm hoping that we can do better as raid organizers as we start raiding in Cataclysm to help prevent the hard feelings that can often arise around this difficult issue.

1. Make it absolutely clear up front when planning raids whether the content we are attempting is progression or on farm, and make sure that we continue to remind people that when scheduling progression runs we may have to exclude folks who aren't prepared. It's not personal, but rather a matter of fulfilling our duty to those who are prepared to give them the best possible chance of having an enjoyable game experience.

2. Make as much effort as possible to let people who are not ready to run content know this fact in an honest yet friendly and constructive manner. And for those who want to improve their preparedness so that they can participate in progression content as well as farmed content, we should do our best to point them toward resources that can help them do so.

And of course, if for whatever reason a player doesn't have the ability or the desire to reach that level of preparedness, that's fine too -- we want people to play the game in whatever way is most enjoyable to them, and so we will endeavor to include them however possible when we can do so without affecting the fun of others. (Be it through farmed content nights, planned heroic runs, previous expansion achievement runs, or other such fun events that don't have the strenuous performance demands that progression raids do.)

Cobble wrote:

I am completely overwhelmed at this as I havent really been involved in a game that required all this planning. I am a casual gamer with a family (and a new baby) and I want to participate sometimes but wont be there on any regular schedule. Am I going to be able to play like that or is being involved on that level require a large time commitment?

Short answer: don't worry about it -- there will be plenty for you do and enjoy as part of the guild regardless of the time you have available to think about it. As I was discussing in my previous post, we may not be able to get you involved in the newest and the hardest fights if you don't have the time to get prepared for them, but many other fun elements of the game don't require a great deal of planning or preparation to have a good time.

1. Raid Nights- Tues/Sun seem to work well, I'm up for pretty much any day.

2. Loot rules- /roll only seems to work well if content is on farm or no one really needs anything. I liked EPGP when we were doing ToC and ICC, seemed the most fair prog wise.

3. Raid leaders- No comment, since I don't lead or have a desire to lead. A big thanks to the ones that do though!

4. Guild achievements- Yes, but I think we will manage to get to the cap without too much trouble or need to organize it.

5. Officers- I don't see any problem here. Something must be done about the GBank(only kidding), I know it's a pita to keep organized. I'd be willing to help out with that.

6. Expectations- "be good to each other" Nuff said.

7. Main toon- Knightly or Littleirish, have decided yet. Probably Knightly though.

Cobble wrote:

I am completely overwhelmed at this as I havent really been involved in a game that required all this planning. I am a casual gamer with a family (and a new baby) and I want to participate sometimes but wont be there on any regular schedule. Am I going to be able to play like that or is being involved on that level require a large time commitment?

Sorry to scare you. I sometimes forget that we have many new faces to the guild. We welcome all and in any form they wish to play. Casual gamers are certainly welcome and we try to do fun things for everyone involved from time to time. I want you to have a good experience playing in gwj alliance, whenever you are able to join us. Don't feel like this is a job that you have to go to, and this goes for everyone. Enjoy yourself.

1) Raid scheduling is complex and annoying right now, but the one thing it has going for it is that it helps us (theoretically) put together the best groups that we can each week. I think with Cat we'll have enough renewed enthusiasm and new/re-upped members that there will be enough people for more than just Tuesday and Sunday 10-mans. I would vote that we start out doing things the same way that we're doing them now, even though it involves a lot of labor.

2) Loot rules - for anyone who doesn't know, right now our 10-man loot rules are a priority system, with a limit of one epic per person at any particular level of priority. The level of priority takes precedence over the number of epics you've gotten, though, so if you're the only plate DPSer on the run, you'll get all the plate DPS gear you can eat before anyone gets it for their offspec. The priority is:

Main character's main spec > Alt character's main spec > Main character's offspec > Alt character's offspec

Even though I love stuff like EPGP, I think that the ease of managing this loot system is better for 10s. I do like EPGP if we do 25s as a guild, although with the gear being the same as 10s I imagine some of the anxiety about who gets the gear will be lessened.

6) Like Grinds said, be excellent to each other. There are guilds that raid better. There are guilds that raid worse. I believe we're here because of who we are, and what GWJ is. People are always going to have favorite and less favorite friends, but we should continue to uphold a very, very high standard of behavior. Be excellent to each other!

7) Still Az playing Ret, unless I'm stinking up the joint trying to execute the new Ret rotation.

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

I know this may be a little easier said than done, but what about having a set night(s) for progression content, and having the guild's farm content on a ad lib "post your availability" fashion? This covers Zero's concerns while giving cutting edge content the time it needs.
Also, Using the in-game calendar system to put out invites for progression content may ease some of the "hard feelings", or whatever you want to call it. When the fact that someone who posted availability and didn't make the team is written openly on the forums week after week, it may dishearten them a bit. Though I don't think that runs should be any kind of secret or something. To me it seems to work just like high school sports. You have a varsity team, and a JV team. Sometimes you make the varsity team and sometimes you don't.

2. Loot rules

IDK anything about how the various loot systems work, but I know that "be good to each other" can really go a long way in loot distribution. Look at when Neverending Winter dropped a few weeks ago: Wal already had the non-heroic version, and it was a considerable upgrade for me, Wal passed on it though he had every right to /roll on it (helluva guy :)). Thus allowing me a huge upgrade and, in turn, giving our team an "upgrade" (since longer lasting tank means better shot at content for everyone). I'm no commie, but "socialist" loot rules would seem to be the ideal scenario for progression content since the chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

If "clique-y-ness" (WTH kind of word is that?) can be avoided I think that having groups that run together regularly is beneficial to progression. The more comfortable people are with each other the more fun people will have IMO. Cohesive groups will push further into content faster. And people that are comfortable with each other a) wont take criticism so harshly b) wont be too timid to give some criticism to another member of their team, and c) wont be too bashful to speak up about something. Though, as stated previously it may not work well due to the nature of our guild. This may be a great place where 25 man content could get everyone together for some hearty laughs and 10 man continuations of that R-ID could net us some big wins.

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

I'm with Knightly (AKA Duchess) on this one. Lets see just how much effort it is going to take.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

IMO the guild needs more members that can invite people into the guild. Our officers don't tend to be online very frequently or for very long periods, and with the recent influx of people looking to join up it'b be nice to get them signed up without them having to wait for the stars to align properly. I've gotten at least a dozen tells in the last few weeks, and have been able to deliver on two. Also, the guild rank "Invites" is rather misleading.
It'd be nice to have some set rules for each page of the gbank, but I know that's a lot of work to create, implement and manage.

6. Expectations

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if someone sees an area of my play I could improve on please let me know. I am ALWAYS open to criticism/critique.

***Disclaimer***
I have never pushed through "progression content" as a group/guild. So take my two cents above with a truckload of salt please.

IMO the guild needs more members that can invite people into the guild. Our officers don't tend to be online very frequently or for very long periods, and with the recent influx of people looking to join up it'b be nice to get them signed up without them having to wait for the stars to align properly.

Grinds, I think you have a volunteer!

Also, the guild rank "Invites" is rather misleading.
It'd be nice to have some set rules for each page of the gbank, but I know that's a lot of work to create, implement and manage.

Yeah, that should probably be changed. Basically, the calendar lets you automatically invite anyone of a given rank, so a rank was made that would contain everyone who might be interested in raiding back when we were doing 25s regularly. Press one button, an invite goes to everyone who might care, you see who responds by a certain time and then make the call as to whether it's worth trying to proceed with the 25 man run or do something else.

It's actually a pretty good system for doing open roster 25s, but assuming we don't end up doing 25s any more we could probably change the rank into something else that would be more useful to us now.

IMO the guild needs more members that can invite people into the guild. Our officers don't tend to be online very frequently or for very long periods

I'm not sure when this is an issue. I'm on most morning for 4-5 hours and then most afternoons and evenings. Currently, I rarely get people asking for invites since the last influx of people at the end of Oct/beginning of Nov. We probably won't see a big drive in invites again until shortly before Cataclysm begins and at that point, other officers will be on quite frequently.

tundra wrote:

Hello everyone-

We are less than one month away from the new expansion. With that being said, it raises questions to what will we be doing and how will we interact. I wanted to post a bit of info for everyone to digest and respond to accordingly. We need to decide as a guild how we wish to proceed into the new content. All information is up for discussion.

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild.

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

6. Expectations- This is a big one for me. I'm sure you have all read "be good to each other". I tend to write that all the time, but I really mean it. I will hold anyone in the guild accountable for their actions. This is the one thing that I tend to get a bit fired up about, if others are treating people poorly. Other expectations are to learn your class to the best of your ability, give what you can when you play, be prepared for the content you will be participating in with others, and ask questions if you don't know. When we raid, your actions impact many others, so please understand that it is important to be prepared. Additionally, we want you to have fun. It is a game, right?

7. Main toon- there is a post for this already, but I will be making a guild roster with toon / forum name and role for people to view.

8. Other items I may have missed- I will add to the list above if people throw out ideas that need to be discussed.

Post away folks. Open to ideas and conversation.

1. My schedule changes every two months so set nights won't work. (In theory it is every two months. In reality, it is about every ten days.)

2. DKP / loot council - Between flexible raid lockouts and no loot disparity you'll want to reward your consistent performers.

3. Set teams if you want consistent, predictable progression.

4. I don't think it is necessary. Cheevos will come organically in a guild like GWJ.

5. Beats me. I gave it all up and haven't been happier in WoW.

6. :thumbsup:

7. Most likely Titanos. Warriors draw from a larger pool of equipment (tank, 2H, 1H/2H DW DPS) than the rogue does, their AOE isn't stupid and wrong (I hate putting poison on a thrown weapon for FoK), and can get instances in seconds.

The start of any new expansion in WoW brings a lot of stress to the Guild. People have different goals, different availability, different levels of interest, etc. There will be people who poop sock their way to 85 (*cough*me*cough*) and others who get bored after a month or two and unsub before they even hit 85. There will be people who can raid 3 nights a week and people who can raid once a month and everything in between. We will try to accommodate everyone, but realistically we can't.

My opinion on a couple things from the thread so far:
- 25 Man Raids. I don't think it's worth the time and effort to try to organize and manage. Even with the new raid lockout system and loot equality, we have far too much scheduling variability. I'd rather run two 10s and build our experience base.

- Set nights. For my schedule, it's more or less irrelevant, but I'm hardly the norm (in so many ways :lol:). It's probably too restrictive, but I can see the advantage for whomever is trying to schedule.

- Set teams. Doesn't work for us. We did this a bit over the summer trying to finish off LK and Ulduar. It worked for a while but it's very hard for 10 people to 100% commit with zero absence to a consistent raid time each week. This just leads to scrambling for a 10th (sometimes a fantastic 10th, sometimes not so much) or cancellation.

- Guild bank. I think the officer crew needs to spend some time on vent and rethink it's structure and the access levels by guild rank.

- Invites. The rank is daft, confusing and needs to go away. Any problems with actually getting a guild invite doesn't strike me as a big problem. It'll be even less of a problem post-Cat.

- Guild Achievements. To me, this is a "for casual entertainment" activity. Leveling the guild will happen quickly on it's own, but I do enjoy a good bit of achievement whoring! We could set up guild events for non-raid nights and work with whomever shows up.

I'll write another post about raid teams & loot...

tundra wrote:

Hello everyone-

We are less than one month away from the new expansion. With that being said, it raises questions to what will we be doing and how will we interact. I wanted to post a bit of info for everyone to digest and respond to accordingly. We need to decide as a guild how we wish to proceed into the new content. All information is up for discussion.

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild.

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

6. Expectations- This is a big one for me. I'm sure you have all read "be good to each other". I tend to write that all the time, but I really mean it. I will hold anyone in the guild accountable for their actions. This is the one thing that I tend to get a bit fired up about, if others are treating people poorly. Other expectations are to learn your class to the best of your ability, give what you can when you play, be prepared for the content you will be participating in with others, and ask questions if you don't know. When we raid, your actions impact many others, so please understand that it is important to be prepared. Additionally, we want you to have fun. It is a game, right?

7. Main toon- there is a post for this already, but I will be making a guild roster with toon / forum name and role for people to view.

8. Other items I may have missed- I will add to the list above if people throw out ideas that need to be discussed.

Post away folks. Open to ideas and conversation.

1 - I think standard raid nights work in terms of letting everyone know what to expect. Under your proposed tues/sun pve, wed pvp and mon lower levels it really lets people know whats going on. I'd like to add that it also leaves thurs-sat as open nights for spur of the moment content or alt raid nights as well.

2 - I would prefer a DKP system myself, but wouldn't be opposed to any other system implemented. DKP would be there to make sure those that show up the most often benefit the most and because of that would also promote people showing up more often. Just as an additional 2 cents on this, I think if we move to DKP it should be treated like WoWs point system in that when moving to a new tier of content, the old DKP is reset to zero.

3 - I see the advantages and disadvantages of set teams. Set teams gives consistency so each week you know how to deal with a situation and not worry if you are missing a CC or debuff you had at one point and dont have now. Set teams also makes weekly raid scheduling MUCH easier. If any changes need to be made, you're probably only looking to fill a single slot or two, not 10 people. Set teams would also allow for very flexible raid schedules as east coasters could start early, have a central group and a pst group if we had enough for that. However, set teams does kind of go against the general GWJ vibe. I think whatever choice is made here will be fine.

4 - I think the achievements will come as we do the content.

5 - I think we have enough, if not too many, officers. I don't mean that in a bad way. Im just not sure more are needed. Personally I've been on vacation and then surgery. If it wasnt for that, my play time would be substantially more. And everytime I can log on I typically see at least one or two other officers on. Once cata drops, Im sure it will be extremely difficult to find any officer not on during prime times.

6 - love luck and lollipops

7 - I have no idea on my main yet. It will be one of my tanks Im sure. I just want to wait til the next round of patches go through and see how the changes fall out. Im leaning towards Bhumpy of course.

1. Raid Nights

With all of the people coming back/fresh faces it is probably best to ask for availability for the first month or so. I think there also needs to be some consideration for later start times.

2. Loot rules

The way we do it right now seems okay.

3. Raid leaders

Weren't set teams (or alleged set teams) a problem in the not so distant past? I'm not really for set teams as long as everyone is following item 6b.

4. Guild achievements

Let's see how this works out naturally first.

5. Officers

Seems okay to me.

6. Expectations

The big part of this for me is part b.

Other expectations are to learn your class to the best of your ability, give what you can when you play, be prepared for the content you will be participating in with others, and ask questions if you don't know. When we raid, your actions impact many others, so please understand that it is important to be prepared.
7. Main toon

Maxoxx - Assassination Rogue

Raid Teams:

Personally, I would love to avoid invite drama, but it's going to happen. For progression content we're going to try and take our most experienced, best geared and fastest learning players until we have it all down pat. Once we do, the raid leaders can take the knowledge and run groups with a wider mix of players. Some players get left out at the start, but I think it's less frustrating overall.

Loot:

Loot is always such a fun, non confrontational, relaxing topic of conversation. Personally, I don't show up for loot (it's just a tool to do my job), I show up to have a hopefully entertaining evening of raiding. For other people, it's the only reason they show up. Either way, I'm happy when people sign up for raids.

Our current looting method works well with some exceptions:
1) We have no formal way to reward/favor consistent players or to even track who our consistent players are.
2) We have a lot of people with alts who agree to join a raid in order for the raid to even happen.
3) Many of our guild members are gracious enough to bring more then one toon to a raid, for example a dps + heal, or switching to a better geared dps toon for certain fights, etc.

2 and 3 won't be that frequent for the first month or two of Cat, but it's just a matter of time.

For me it all boils down to assigning loot to where it benefits the guild the most. In any situation where there's more then one interested party for a piece of loot, I'd consider: a) how often is the guild making use of each of these toons for raids? b) how significant of an upgrade is it?

Every piece of loot is an investment in the future success of the guild. Giving someone who plays once a month something rare/uber over someone who plays every week just because they had a better /roll isn't doing us much good. Replacing a 232 with a 264 does more for the guild then replacing a 251. Every week we should be trying to add as much potential strength to next week's raid as possible.

I guess I'm suggesting loot council or our current system with some override ability. The unfortunate part is, that whenever a human decides where loot should go vs. a tool (EPGP) or /roll, there's enormous opportunity for drama.

1) I don't have any restrictions on raid nights, but...

2) I have never yet been able to enjoy raiding in a guild because of loot drama. People bitching about someone else getting something they wanted will make me stop partying with a group even faster than gross class incompetence. I really like the loot rules Fedaykin described, and I would very much prefer 10 man groups to 25 man, mostly because of the increased risk of loot drama in larger groups.

3) I have no preference for how raid groups are set up.

4) I suggest letting the guild achievements happen, and if we get close to one, publicize it so everyone gets a chance to contribute if they want.

5) I have no idea who the officers are, but then I'm rarely in need of one.

6) I think "be prepared for the content you'll be doing" is a double edged sword. Half the fun for me in doing dungeons is the surprise of new encounters and learning how to get around. That's all gone if everyone is expected to have memorized the latest YouTube walkthrough before entering any dungeon. I realize that some folks like to know everything before hand, but studying the intricate details of every encounter really ruins it for me. I hope that doesn't mean I have to wait until everything is on farm so I can get carried through anything I don't know without making things harder for others.

On the other hand, things like "keep your gear gemmed up and enchanted" and "bring all the consumables you'll need" are just basic common sense things to me.

7) (for now) Chuda, arcane mage. That may change, though, as I have six level 80 characters (mage, hunter, feral druid, priest, paladin, death knight), and will probably have a seventh (boomkin) by next month. I have no idea what I'm going to feel like sticking with next month.

I'd like to pt out some thoughts on topics others mentioned:

Set raid teams: Again, scheduling the way we have been without set nights is laborious, but it allows the raid leader the most flexibility to draw up the best possible raiding plans. Same thing goes for set teams. We haven't really had set teams lately, and I don't think that's been a problem. For trying to beat a tough boss for the first time, the raid scheduler naturally uses the most experienced folks possible. On other occasions, he can try to create a couple very even groups that maximizes everyone's opportunity to kill bosses for fun and profit.

When I've done it, there are times that I've tried to stack a progression group, and times when I've tried to create the most equal teams possible, just depending on what the guilds goal that week.

Set teams involves drama, and would be more suited to a guild with a more static raiding team. We have people come and go and have availability shift so often that realistically, we wouldn't have any set teams for very long. And it can lead to a sense of an A team and a B team, etc. This antagonizes a lot of people unnecessarily, especially when availability changes and we scrap the idea. At that point we've created a bunch of rifts and have nothing to show for it.

I also don't think set teams would provide an advantage in progression over the way we have been doing things (again, we've been giving the scheduler discretion, with input from the GM/officers/raiders). But more importantly, they would conflict with our prime directive. We aren't here for epic progression, though we sometimes get it. We are here to play with awesome people in the best guild atmosphere anywhere.

(FWIW, those who know me know I am usually a foaming at the mouth hardcore progression raider who loves heroic modes and such, so I'm not saying let's do none of that.)

Loot rules - Still cool wth our current system that I posted above (and I gather that a lot of people were unaware of those rules yet happy with how things were handled, which I think is a positive sign - they are intended to really just be common sense in statute form). But, I'm also fine with EPGP or DKP if they can be implemented relatively easily. They do address the one shortcoming of our system, which is that it doesn't account for attendance, etc.

FWIW, I really dislike any kind of DKP system. Any time loot is distributed based on some value metric, you automatically end up devaluing part of your team, and that engenders bad feelings. It doesn't matter whether it's based on attendance or on-timeness or bosses killed or whatever metric, a value system creates haves and have-nots. I particularly dislike attendance metrics. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not punching a time clock.

To me, any value-based system of loot distribution is exactly the same as kicking people from pugs because their gear score is below some arbitrary value.

A group of reasonable adults should be able to distribute loot randomly based on need without loot drama.

I have never yet been able to enjoy raiding in a guild because of loot drama. People bitching about someone else getting something they wanted will make me stop partying with a group even faster than gross class incompetence.

We haven't had any loot drama in a long time, but with new content, it's likely to happen. EPGP has worked for us before, so no one is taking it off the table. We will develop or agree on some equitable system that is fair to as many as possible. Also, you can be an adult and disagree that someone should/shouldn't have gotten something, as long as you accept the fact that it happened and that any decisions were made in the interest of the raid and guild.

I particularly dislike attendance metrics. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not punching a time clock.

It's not about punching a clock. It's about Player X signs up for multiple days, comes prepared, and does the job to the best of their ability. Player Y signs up once in a while, has no shows, and basically treats the 9 other raiders like a back up plan. It's happened before. Is it fair for slacker Player Y to get a piece that Player X has waited to drop? Or will Player Y be okay if we say "Sorry you decided to show up for once, but Player X deserves it more? These are the questions that we need to discuss and put down on paper so everyone knows what's expected. IMO you need to reward people who are consistent and reliable over the very casual person. But that's what this thread is here to discuss.

To me, any value-based system of loot distribution is exactly the same as kicking people from pugs because their gear score is below some arbitrary value.

You've never experienced the way we handled loot via EPGP, and in that regard, it's best not to make judgment calls that might scare people off before you know the ins and outs of how we handle it. You can ask anyone who went through it and most of them would tell you it was a fair system top to bottom.

Our goal is to make it fair to everyone, and in that regard, if you are dedicated to furthering our progression, be a team player, and understand that we make and discuss decisions for everyone's betterment then any loot system we go with should be good enough for our raiders.

I only have one thing to comment on.

2 - I would prefer a DKP system, but would go with any other system the guild chooses. DKP would be there to make sure those that show up the most often benefit the most and because of that would also promote people showing up more often. I was around for some of the epgp with gwj and it went very well. I have been in other guilds who have had it and it goes much better and loot gets distributed much quicker with it in place.

EvilMonkeyFG wrote:
I have never yet been able to enjoy raiding in a guild because of loot drama. People bitching about someone else getting something they wanted will make me stop partying with a group even faster than gross class incompetence.

We haven't had any loot drama in a long time, but with new content, it's likely to happen. EPGP has worked for us before, so no one is taking it off the table. We will develop or agree on some equitable system that is fair to as many as possible. Also, you can be an adult and disagree that someone should/shouldn't have gotten something, as long as you accept the fact that it happened and that any decisions were made in the interest of the raid and guild.

I particularly dislike attendance metrics. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not punching a time clock.

It's not about punching a clock. It's about Player X signs up for multiple days, comes prepared, and does the job to the best of their ability. Player Y signs up once in a while, has no shows, and basically treats the 9 other raiders like a back up plan. It's happened before. Is it fair for slacker Player Y to get a piece that Player X has waited to drop? Or will Player Y be okay if we say "Sorry you decided to show up for once, but Player X deserves it more? These are the questions that we need to discuss and put down on paper so everyone knows what's expected. IMO you need to reward people who are consistent and reliable over the very casual person. But that's what this thread is here to discuss.

To me, any value-based system of loot distribution is exactly the same as kicking people from pugs because their gear score is below some arbitrary value.

You've never experienced the way we handled loot via EPGP, and in that regard, it's best not to make judgment calls that might scare people off before you know the ins and outs of how we handle it. You can ask anyone who went through it and most of them would tell you it was a fair system top to bottom.

Our goal is to make it fair to everyone, and in that regard, if you are dedicated to furthering our progression, be a team player, and understand that we make and discuss decisions for everyone's betterment then any loot system we go with should be good enough for our raiders.

I 100% agree with the above.

If this belongs on its own, just let me know. But what is the interest in Arenas? There is gold to be paid, papers to be signed.

Will we be able to have several 5 person teams, 3's and 2's? I am not so hardcore as to expect everyone to have 2 sets of gear; but I do not plan on heading off with epic greens either. This means, in part, getting set up to run battlegrounds to get the gear needed or using the raiding gear.

Now, if there are enough people who want to work towards the top 20 percent of the group for titles and rewards, I am all for that, but I will not get bent out of shape if we cannot get that.

Also, I put this in the other thread. If/When I raid it is in a relief or under-study role. If folks do not mind that I will be wearing PVP gear, but still need a healer or DPS, then that is groovy. I am way too casual with raiding to care too much about gear and all that. Really, I mostly want a shot at some of the rare pets and mounts.

EvilMonkeyFG wrote:
I particularly dislike attendance metrics. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not punching a time clock.

It's not about punching a clock. It's about Player X signs up for multiple days, comes prepared, and does the job to the best of their ability. Player Y signs up once in a while, has no shows, and basically treats the 9 other raiders like a back up plan. It's happened before. Is it fair for slacker Player Y to get a piece that Player X has waited to drop? Or will Player Y be okay if we say "Sorry you decided to show up for once, but Player X deserves it more? These are the questions that we need to discuss and put down on paper so everyone knows what's expected. IMO you need to reward people who are consistent and reliable over the very casual person. But that's what this thread is here to discuss.

The problem here is you are conflating low attendance with being a douche. If someone is late all the time and is unprepared, you tell them sorry, but we prefer they wait until raid dungeons are on farm status so that everyone benefits. Someone who shows up twice a week doesn't have a right to twice as much loot--or *any* more loot if you ask me--as someone who shows up once a week. Loot distribution should be random and need-based, and everyone has to agree on the definition of "need."

EvilMonkeyFG wrote:
To me, any value-based system of loot distribution is exactly the same as kicking people from pugs because their gear score is below some arbitrary value.

You've never experienced the way we handled loot via EPGP, and in that regard, it's best not to make judgment calls that might scare people off before you know the ins and outs of how we handle it. You can ask anyone who went through it and most of them would tell you it was a fair system top to bottom.

Fair enough, I'll start another topic to discuss it.

KingGorilla wrote:

But what is the interest in Arenas? There is gold to be paid, papers to be signed.

I'm still interested in getting my Pally into arenas/BGs. Though only interested in using his Holy spec for such an endeavor (part shockadin part heals). Been sitting on a reasonable amount of honor since the patch.

The problem here is you are conflating low attendance with being a douche.

Really not seeing that at all in this thread. Low availability (someone posts they can raid once per week) vs low attendance (no shows) are VERY different.

ELewis17 wrote:
The problem here is you are conflating low attendance with being a douche.

Really not seeing that at all in this thread. Low availability (someone posts they can raid once per week) vs low attendance (no shows) are VERY different.

That's exactly what I'm saying, they're very different. I was referring to the specific example given, where player X is a team player and player Y is a douche who also has low attendance.

ANYway, here's a new thread to talk about loot.

Once per week is low attendance? I am thinking i might be able to once or twice a month (got a new baby and all).

This thread makes me feel bad. I think not getting a piece of loot i could use on a time I do get to raid because i don't do it enough is pretty crappy.

Just to be clear... I don't want to be the new guy coming in and telling you how to run your guild. I just saw in this thread the two options, primarily do 10-man content using a random system that sounds appealing to me, or also do 25-man content using a DKP system. Given those options, I like the 10-man option, and that's because I hate DKP systems with the fiery heat of a billion suns.

BadKen wrote:

Just to be clear... I don't want to be the new guy coming in and telling you how to run your guild. I just saw in this thread the two options, primarily do 10-man content using a random system that sounds appealing to me, or also do 25-man content using a DKP system. Given those options, I like the 10-man option, and that's because I hate DKP systems with the fiery heat of a billion suns.

Yes you can wait until the guild has it on farm status but if an EPGP system is in place you will still not just get something cause you need it. As I stated above the system has worked in many guilds that I know of. Having a loot council creates a lot of down time in raids trying to figure out who gets what. Just me personally I dont want to wait 20 minutes for loot to get given out.

BadKen wrote:

Just to be clear... I don't want to be the new guy coming in and telling you how to run your guild. I just saw in this thread the two options, primarily do 10-man content using a random system that sounds appealing to me, or also do 25-man content using a DKP system. Given those options, I like the 10-man option, and that's because I hate DKP systems with the fiery heat of a billion suns.

Actually, the discussion is on 10 man content as well. We likely won't have many nights with 25 raid ready players. Now that 10 man and 25 man drop the same ilevel loot, I would expect our focus to stay on more manageable 10 man groups. The players in 10 man groups need to be raid ready as well. With the boost in ilevel (allowing 10 man to drop same loot as 25 man) blizz has stated that 10 man content should see difficulty get turned up a notch or two from the differences seen pre-Cata.

I would also like to add that my experience with DKP / EPGP systems is 100% the opposite of BadKen. I have never had a bad experience with any of those systems. I have been part of casual and hard core raiding guilds. All of the guilds that scheduled progression runs used some sort of DKP / EPGP system. Even GWJ used EPGP for there progression 25 mans, but with the great change of 10 man loot having same ilevel, 10 man will be now be considered progression and we should adjust loot rules accordingly.

Cobble wrote:

Once per week is low attendance? I am thinking i might be able to once or twice a month (got a new baby and all).
This thread makes me feel bad. I think not getting a piece of loot i could use on a time I do get to raid because i don't do it enough is pretty crappy.

EPGP / DKP systems are definitely a double edged sword. Under EPGP, those that raid more would earn more points, but they will likely spend more points. Meaning its very possible someone with very casual raiding could have a higher priority than someone who raids a great deal more often. Its all based on a priority system (earned / spent). The benefit to this system is that a player that desired a single object could stock their points and while others geared up other slots, they would make sure they had highest priority for whatever item they coveted most. There are definitely pros and cons to adopting these systems, but there are also pros and cons to not using any system at all.

The problem here is you are conflating low attendance with being a douche.

We have never had issues getting people into raids based on prior attendance. If you want to look at it differently how about this example. If we have Tank A who can raid 7 days a week and we have Tank B who can raid twice a month, who would you consider to be more valuable to the guild, if all things were equal. My point is not to segregate those that have more time and those than have less time to play, but most reasonable people would say a person who makes more time available to the guild would be someone who would put themselves into a position where we would want to gear out faster, not only for their benefit but the guild's as well.

I wasn't trying to imply that people with less availability hurt the guild in any way, but it would be a steep climb to make the argument that they, with much less availability, wouldn't be in a position to help the guild as much as a regular raider. EPGP/DKP would be a system that balances out the committment of the dedicated raiders while still allowing situational/conservative raiders an oppurtiny for fair loot distribution. But again, we haven't determined anything as of yet, so comments towards what people feel is a good system are always accepted. I don't have any problem with you disliking DKP, but in all honesty, it just sounds like you've had bad experiences with it, and in saying that, I hope if we do adopt it, you'll give it a chance and see how we work it.

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