This is Not the Boogle Memorial Dating Advice/Tips Thread, No

unntrlaffinity wrote:

I don't know. I find each successive suggestion that involves bringing yourself in some way physically closer to the girl in question to also become increasingly frightening.

Picture it like this. In the first scenario, okay, so he mailed something. Maybe a bit weird. In the second, he came to your house when you weren't there and that's... unsettling. In the third, while it may be harder to misread someone, you've also just removed her option to gracefully and passively decide to reject you, if you've misread the situation.

Yeah, the only saving grace to something like this I can see is being in the neighborhood and having some reason to continue a conversation with her, but at that point you're thinking about it too much. If I've learned anything through the advice given on the forum and from real life, the more you have to think about it the less you ought to be doing it. That, or the more chances you'll just screw up and wind up stuttering half the time.

I'd say it's a bad idea to follow up. Just accept it as a lesson learned and move on.

Sonicator wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I'll tell my story later when I'm not so tired. Mostly just marking this so I can bring up my "progress" later.

Yeah, I've been wanting to hear what happened with that waitress. :-)

I'm not sure how I should feel in terms of being a mad phat chick killer, but I find it an interesting experience nonetheless.

We returned this Sunday and asked for her section, and at first I was a bit afraid it was going to just seem too forced since all we were doing was ordering our meals with a bit of a more friendly attitude. I was starting to feel like I stank of desperation and ought to quit. Then she asked my friend and I how long we have been man-dating. He seemed a bit unsure how to approach that, but I simply laughed and said "This is my hetero life-mate Jay, and I'm Silent Bob". This was met with laughter, a confession that she loved those movies, and just built on everyone explaining where they're from, learning that she's going to school nearby (right around the corner from us, actually) and so on.

So I'm like "sweet! This is going so well!"

And it never went poorly. However, near the end of our time there she mentioned something about smoking, and when I was joking that she now gave us cancer just by serving our food she mentioned that she "is quitting over Christmas as a present to her girlfriend". I have a bad feeling this may have come as a visible surprise, but I did my best to treat it as if it was nothing and keep the conversation going (partly because when she mentioned it she sounded as if she were talking about her job, not smoking, so that allowed the conversation to flow without a single hitch).

It ended with her asking us if we'd be coming back next week, and we said probably not but we'll return another time. She let us know she works there every Sunday, same time.

So as we left I considered maybe she meant girlfriend as in "friend that is a girl", but honestly, you don't say "I'm going to quit smoking as a present to my girlfriend" unless it has romantic undertones. So in the end there's that "blast it!" feeling.

However, at the same time, my friend and I were bad ass enough people that she wants us to come back and just enjoyed talking to us and getting to know us better. So that is a super high bonus to self-esteem. In addition, as was mentioned in the previous thread (or perhaps another one?), just because she is taken (by another girl, no less! Which is a breath of fresh air after going to a College where every interesting female had a boyfriend already) doesn't mean she lacks hot single female friends.

I think next time he and I go there, I'm going to see if she'd be interested in seeing a movie with us later in the week, or pretend we were planning on going bowling in the area X night and if she was interested she could join us, and feel free to bring her girlfriend and/or geeky roommate along (who she brought up after saying we were having the geekiest conversation ever). It gives me the opportunity to expand my social circle, and gives her the opportunity to get to know us outside of her job. It just seems like a good move socially, and she's also free enough to reject us gracefully.

Now then...

My Sunday eventfulness did not end there. The Sunday before Halloween I had went to my Church's Bible Study for the first time, though it was a sort of "off night" since there were evening baptisms going on and such. So I got to talk to a few people and decided to return the week AFTER Halloween. That meeting taught me that the group was certainly worth visiting regularly, so this Sunday was week three. However, since half the group is in Haiti doing Christiany stuff and another half is at a Conference on relationships and marriage, there wasn't really a study planned. Just a night of singing followed by socializing.

Well, this week there was a girl there who apparently tried to get my attention like five times before I actually noticed her (and I genuinely felt bad, because I really didn't know she was trying to talk to me before then). She basically wanted to compliment me on my Zelda shirt, which broke into a whole conversation on video games. After the singing and everyone headed out for a diner, she spent the night trying to out-geek me quite a few times. So um, yeah. DEFINITELY going to try and see if I can hang out with her outside of the Bible Study.

There are only two problems with her, though. 1) It's well ahead of time for me to make accurate judgments, but based on her behaviors that night and what I've seen of girls up at my College (a geek mecha), she may have enough self-esteem issues that she wants someone to be acknowledging her constantly. Not that she must be the center of attention, but someone must be paying attention and engaging her. But I cannot say this for certain. She could just be incredibly talkative and friendly and happen to have a brain that jumps from one topic to the next. 2) And this is a problem with a couple of the other cute girls from the Bible Study. She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

Speaking of, I'm also lending someone my entire Scott Pilgrim comic collection at the next meeting.

So uh, yeah, my social life is preparing to take off, or so it seems. Now I just need a job and I'm good.

...God damn, I didn't mean to type so much. I feel like I've just spilled worthless LiveJournal crap out to the community.

So to present a few problems of my own, I am incredibly dense when it comes to body language, or really signals of any kind. Short of very suggestive, very physical contact, I will not have any idea what's going on. I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken a girl back to my place, and most ladies have to almost literally jump my bones before I figure out what's going on. It makes me a terrible flirt. As in unskilled. In turn, I've learned that I am additionally oblivious as to when I seem to be sending out signals of my own.

Essentially, while obliviousness comes across at first as playing hard to get, there's a line where women simply find it aggravating.

I'm terrible at meeting people in bars. Partially it's because bars are f*cking expensive. Another part is that I assume some bars people specifically go to drink/meet, and I seem to be drawn to the sit in a dark corner and brood establishments, or I'm part of a group whose main interest is to hang out with each other. I'm actually very uncomfortable drinking in a bar alone, so normally I don't enter one unless I'm with someone already or meeting someone.

I'm as guilty as anyone else of wanting what I can't have. Hence the rule of three above. I've also trained myself to wrap up voicemails very quickly. If I feel like I'm starting to ramble, I instinctively say, "I think that's it" which I then reflexively follow up with "goodbye."

Which brings me to how I'm still adapting to how prevalent texting has become, especially with younger (as in early 20s) girls. In college I would have thought asking someone out via text was corny, but now it seems completely normal.

After thinking about the question above involving social circles, I've also realized I don't take my own advice. I actively avoid dating within my social circle or workplace. Which is one of the reasons I've been online dating off and on over the past several months. You can immediately ensure that someone isn't going to blow up your life. Although when I have dated a friend of a friend recently, or someone within my social sphere, I've managed to avoid burning any further bridges by making sure both parties understand where the other stands before we sleep together (I have no immediate interest in a relationship, and while that does limit my options, I find I avoid quite a bit of drama by making that clear early on.) So in my mind alcohol would actually make that situation more complicated.

Which doesn't always work, but it seems like people understand if you've made a good effort not to be a jerk and sh*t goes sour anyway. Or at least I haven't lost any friends to those situations in recent years.

So we typed the first thing that came to our heads, and it just so happened to be: THE BEST THREAD IN THE WORLD

ccesarano wrote:

There are only two problems with her, though. 1) It's well ahead of time for me to make accurate judgments, but based on her behaviors that night and what I've seen of girls up at my College (a geek mecha), she may have enough self-esteem issues that she wants someone to be acknowledging her constantly. Not that she must be the center of attention, but someone must be paying attention and engaging her. But I cannot say this for certain. She could just be incredibly talkative and friendly and happen to have a brain that jumps from one topic to the next. 2) And this is a problem with a couple of the other cute girls from the Bible Study. She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

Everyone has self-esteem issues. Especially in your late teens, early 20s. Have you considered just asking her how old she is?

Do you drink? I've found asking a girl out for a drink usually (usually) is a safe way to make sure they're at least 21. Or any venue/event that takes place in a 21 or older location. And if they're not, they mention something at that point. Although once I had a panic moment when a girl pulled out a fake ID after we got to the bar (turns out she was 20.)

unntrlaffinity wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

There are only two problems with her, though. 1) It's well ahead of time for me to make accurate judgments, but based on her behaviors that night and what I've seen of girls up at my College (a geek mecha), she may have enough self-esteem issues that she wants someone to be acknowledging her constantly. Not that she must be the center of attention, but someone must be paying attention and engaging her. But I cannot say this for certain. She could just be incredibly talkative and friendly and happen to have a brain that jumps from one topic to the next. 2) And this is a problem with a couple of the other cute girls from the Bible Study. She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

Everyone has self-esteem issues. Especially in your late teens, early 20s. Have you considered just asking her how old she is?

Do you drink? I've found asking a girl out for a drink usually (usually) is a safe way to make sure they're at least 21. Or any venue/event that takes place in a 21 or older location. And if they're not, they mention something at that point. Although once I had a panic moment when a girl pulled out a fake ID after we got to the bar (turns out she was 20.)

I hate bars, and I hate trying to meet people at bars, but one thing I know about bars is that it means the girl is at least 21, and if not, I have plausible deniability.

Podunk wrote:

So we typed the first thing that came to our heads, and it just so happened to be: THE BEST THREAD IN THE WORLD

It was the best thread in the world.
Look into my eyes and its easy to see...

boogle wrote:
Podunk wrote:

So we typed the first thing that came to our heads, and it just so happened to be: THE BEST THREAD IN THE WORLD

It was the best thread in the world.
Look into my eyes and its easy to see...

This is not my beautiful thread,
This is not my beautiful post..

ccesarano wrote:

Awesomeness

Bad luck with the waitress, but that's still a great story. I'd definitely go for expanding the social circle, she sounds like fun. As for the second girl, I'd say it's worth following up on for the reasons unntrl mentioned. I wouldn't worry too much about the age difference if you get along well. I keep forgetting that the drinking age is 21 over there, though, must make life difficult.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

So to present a few problems of my own, I am incredibly dense when it comes to body language, or really signals of any kind. Short of very suggestive, very physical contact, I will not have any idea what's going on. I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken a girl back to my place, and most ladies have to almost literally jump my bones before I figure out what's going on. It makes me a terrible flirt. As in unskilled. In turn, I've learned that I am additionally oblivious as to when I seem to be sending out signals of my own.

Essentially, while obliviousness comes across at first as playing hard to get, there's a line where women simply find it aggravating.

I don't think that there's any good rule of thumb given that different girls have such different ideas about what constitutes flirting (much like different guys): I've known girls who do the whole "lingering-touch-on-the-arm" routine when they're just being friendly, and others who think that they're throwing themselves at a guy when I'd have said that they're shutting him down.

I'm terrible at meeting people in bars. Partially it's because bars are f*cking expensive. Another part is that I assume some bars people specifically go to drink/meet, and I seem to be drawn to the sit in a dark corner and brood establishments, or I'm part of a group whose main interest is to hang out with each other. I'm actually very uncomfortable drinking in a bar alone, so normally I don't enter one unless I'm with someone already or meeting someone.
kaostheory wrote:

I hate bars, and I hate trying to meet people at bars, but one thing I know about bars is that it means the girl is at least 21, and if not, I have plausible deniability.

Bars can be a good place to meet large numbers of people, but in my experience it requires the right people (small number in a similar mindset) and the right bar. The biggest problem in my experience is that the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty bad - the only common link with the people there other than your taste in bars, so the odds that any given girl will be someone that'd you'd be interested in dating is fairly low.

Which brings me to how I'm still adapting to how prevalent texting has become, especially with younger (as in early 20s) girls. In college I would have thought asking someone out via text was corny, but now it seems completely normal.

As an aside, a variant on this would make a great conversation starter in a bar. I'm still sceptical about texting myself, but as you say it seems to be more common these days.

After thinking about the question above involving social circles, I've also realized I don't take my own advice.

Most people (myself included) aren't very good about that in any context.

I've missed this thread.

IMAGE(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1558/rally2j.jpg)

unntrlaffinity wrote:

So to present a few problems of my own, I am incredibly dense when it comes to body language, or really signals of any kind. Short of very suggestive, very physical contact, I will not have any idea what's going on. I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken a girl back to my place, and most ladies have to almost literally jump my bones before I figure out what's going on. It makes me a terrible flirt. As in unskilled. In turn, I've learned that I am additionally oblivious as to when I seem to be sending out signals of my own.

Essentially, while obliviousness comes across at first as playing hard to get, there's a line where women simply find it aggravating.

This was my issue with my ex-girlfriend before we started dating. It took until she just held my hand during Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy (at a fitting moment of wonder, too) before I confidently reciprocated.

I've gotten better at spotting it, but it's not always so clear. The girl after my ex (whom I turned down) would physically grab my arm and put it around her when she sat next to me. Not a lot of girls are that obvious. I haven't really been in a situation since then where I need to measure a girl's interest by physical flirtation, but I've learned that girls that are just friends will usually restrict touch to hugs and some playful touching. A girl with romantic interest will try to instigate touch however way they can.

I'm terrible at meeting people in bars. Partially it's because bars are f*cking expensive. Another part is that I assume some bars people specifically go to drink/meet, and I seem to be drawn to the sit in a dark corner and brood establishments, or I'm part of a group whose main interest is to hang out with each other. I'm actually very uncomfortable drinking in a bar alone, so normally I don't enter one unless I'm with someone already or meeting someone.

I've felt this way on the whole about bars. People recommend them, but I can't see myself just walking into a place to meet people, especially because I can't think of a good way to start stimulating conversation. Most of my friends tell me conversation isn't the point, but with me it is. And bars tend to be loud anyway. In the end I prefer a more quiet corner where my friends and I can shoot the sh*t and chew on chicken fingers.

The rest of your stuff I got nothin' for.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Everyone has self-esteem issues. Especially in your late teens, early 20s. Have you considered just asking her how old she is?

I guess I'm just scared off from my ex-girlfriend from stuff like that, but that's also the sort of thing that can result in a complete disaster. Being so scared of what you had with an ex that you avoid taking chances. It's just something I noticed, and after seeing it exhibited through so many girls at anime club and gaming club I instinctively label as "One Of Those". Which is unfair, because the ratio/situation at College led most girls to be horrible teases and attention whores.

Do you drink? I've found asking a girl out for a drink usually (usually) is a safe way to make sure they're at least 21. Or any venue/event that takes place in a 21 or older location. And if they're not, they mention something at that point. Although once I had a panic moment when a girl pulled out a fake ID after we got to the bar (turns out she was 20.)

I'd need to figure out good bars in the area first. I know of a few pubs, but I don't know if there are any that are really good. I'd want to go someplace for the food. Only alcohol I drink is Whiskey since you're not really supposed to drink it for the flavor.

Otherwise, that is a good strategy. I might just ask if anyone knows if any of the bars/pubs in the area have any good food.

ccesarano wrote:

I'd need to figure out good bars in the area first. I know of a few pubs, but I don't know if there are any that are really good. I'd want to go someplace for the food. Only alcohol I drink is Whiskey since you're not really supposed to drink it for the flavor.

Otherwise, that is a good strategy. I might just ask if anyone knows if any of the bars/pubs in the area have any good food.

Or if the opportunity presents itself, ask the girl if she knows any bars with good food in the area and would she like to accompany you for a snack and a drink. Then you usually get your age question and your hanging out question solved at the same time.

Sonicator wrote:

I don't think that there's any good rule of thumb given that different girls have such different ideas about what constitutes flirting (much like different guys): I've known girls who do the whole "lingering-touch-on-the-arm" routine when they're just being friendly, and others who think that they're throwing themselves at a guy when I'd have said that they're shutting him down.

You give me too much credit. I mean I'm really unaware. Tongue down my throat to get my attention unaware.

It sounds cheesy, but even in situations where romance isn't the goal, the first step towards me making a move with a girl I'm out with is whether or not we feel comfortable holding hands. It's easy enough to steal a kiss before the restaurant, movie, her doorstep, etc. once you've established that point of contact. A flirty female friend may give you a lap dance in a drunken moment of weakness, but they'll rarely hold your hand as you stroll around downtown.

I'm not sure if that's just me, or if it'll be helpful to anyone else, but there it is.

Another thing I've found is that I rarely, if ever, formally ask someone out on a "date". So you're constantly faced with the question of whether or not there's mutual attraction, or if there's some wacky misunderstanding in the works, even as you're getting to know each other. Which I suppose is part of the fun, but definitely adds to my hesitation at any given point in time. And at times a lethal combination when paired with my lack of awareness.

Podunk wrote:

So we typed the first thing that came to our heads, and it just so happened to be: THE BEST THREAD IN THE WORLD

And the peculiar thing is this, my friends
The thread we wrote on that fateful night
It didn't actually look anything like this thread!

ccesarano wrote:

She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

HOW IS THIS A PROBLEM? I DON'T UNDERSTAND

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Another thing I've found is that I rarely, if ever, formally ask someone out on a "date". So you're constantly faced with the question of whether or not there's mutual attraction, or if there's some wacky misunderstanding in the works, even as you're getting to know each other. Which I suppose is part of the fun, but definitely adds to my hesitation at any given point in time. And at times a lethal combination when paired with my lack of awareness.

Once I started saying "Do you want to go on a date?" things got a lot easier. It started when I was interested in a girl who I would invite to hang out in a group but would decline but was always very flirty and had a co worker who would always make suggestions. So I finally asked if she wanted to go on a date and she said yes. She had decided at some point that she wasn't doing the "hanging out" thing and that she needed to be asked out on a proper date. I realized that she had the right idea in removing the ambiguity from things.

ccesarano wrote:

So as we left I considered maybe she meant girlfriend as in "friend that is a girl", but honestly, you don't say "I'm going to quit smoking as a present to my girlfriend" unless it has romantic undertones. So in the end there's that "blast it!" feeling.

You're looking at this the wrong way; you should be saying to yourself, "Awesome! A three-way!"

I'm so glad I'm not a guy sometimes, knowing how I am.

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one. It seems unfair, but it is how it has always been. I've never had to do those things as eventually, he will. And if he doesn't, then it means he isn't "man" enough to be the type of guy I want to be in a relationship with and someone will soon come along that does want me badly enough to take the risk.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

Sonicator wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

Awesomeness

Bad luck with the waitress, but that's still a great story. I'd definitely go for expanding the social circle, she sounds like fun. As for the second girl, I'd say it's worth following up on for the reasons unntrl mentioned. I wouldn't worry too much about the age difference if you get along well. I keep forgetting that the drinking age is 21 over there, though, must make life difficult.

Very cool story and it highlights how important it is to put yourself out there. Even if you don't get horizontal (or whatever you're after) you can still meet a cool person, and maybe other cool people through them. I think you treated the situation as well as possible.

Although, as anyone who has made out with a lesbian can tell you, sexuality can be pretty fluid.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

You give me too much credit. I mean I'm really unaware. Tongue down my throat to get my attention unaware.

Heh, been there.

I work at being a lot more observant of interested behaviour, I may sometimes over read, but I think it's preferable to missing opportunities.

NathanialG wrote:

Once I started saying "Do you want to go on a date?" things got a lot easier.

Yep. While it's a natural instinct to try be as subtle as possible to prevent embarrassment I think it's far better to be direct early.

As for your other issue, Nate. Walk away. While any action you take may be the kind of thing that looks good in a romantic comedy it will more likely result in a restraining order in real life.

peacensunshine wrote:

I'm so glad I'm not a guy sometimes, knowing how I am.

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one. It seems unfair, but it is how it has always been. I've never had to do those things as eventually, he will. And if he doesn't, then it means he isn't "man" enough to be the type of guy I want to be in a relationship with and someone will soon come along that does want me badly enough to take the risk.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

The sad thing is, you are spot on right there. Women are way more insecure than men, which is the sole reason for this "he has to make the effort" mindset. I think, almost everyone closing in on or passing 30 knows that the whole courtship bullcrap society tries to teach us during our childhood and teenage years has nothing to do with reality.

Women don't want good looking men, women don't want intelligent, humorous or otherwise eloquent men. Women want, even if some will never consciously admit it, a man who knows who he is, what he wants and who most of all realizes, that he doesn't need the woman. But because most of us have been taught badly and end up being needy husks of desperation, we have no chance of ever attracting or keeping a woman. At least not one with a bare minimum of self-esteem.

Looking at all my friends, who denied who they were, when they met what they believed to be "the one", the way the molded into this synergetic being and the way relationships break people, I'd rather stay single for the rest of my life.

And if a woman believes, I will call her three times without her making at least half the effort I am doing, she's just nowhere near the maturity level I am looking for. Sorry, but I've had my fair share of sh*t-tests. And for me to be running the gauntlet before I even know how many siblings she has, she either has to be filthy rich or bombshell material.

*Legion* wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

HOW IS THIS A PROBLEM? I DON'T UNDERSTAND

1) I feel like I'd be a creeper even if she is legal.
2) The years spent between age 18-21 or 22 involve a lot of self-discovery and maturity. Hell, 22-25 has involved a lot of self-discovery and maturity for me. It seems like there could be issues that arise due to the age gap.
3) I was raised by a very conservative family, so anything that doesn't come off as "traditional" will give me pause for a moment.
4) I just wanted to even the ordered list out.

Rat Boy wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

So as we left I considered maybe she meant girlfriend as in "friend that is a girl", but honestly, you don't say "I'm going to quit smoking as a present to my girlfriend" unless it has romantic undertones. So in the end there's that "blast it!" feeling.

You're looking at this the wrong way; you should be saying to yourself, "Awesome! A three-way!"

If that's the sort of action I'd be looking for, I certainly would be viewing it as that sort of opportunity. However, I'm not interested in something like that without being in a relationship (though I've been told it isn't unreasonable for bisexual women to have a boyfriend and girlfriend, which just comes off as strange to me. Going back to being raised by a conservative family and traditional mindsets...)

peacensunshine wrote:

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one.

Good luck with the phone calls thing. I don't know a single guy that calls people on the phone for any reason other than "Yo, wanna go do X thing on Y day? Ok, I'll see you then." Bam, that's it.

Otherwise, in some ways it sounds pretty standard, and I've noticed that guys who don't take the initiative are often bound to get super clingy.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

Yes. Yes it is.

Stupid society enforced gender roles.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

And maybe I read it wrong, but that paragraph also seems to imply that intelligent, humorous, and eloquent individuals can't also know who they are and what they want. Which I find baffling. To me, it seems like most intelligent, humorous, and eloquent people I know are confident exactly because they know who they are and what they want.

Internet-high-ten, good sir. That's right, both left and right fives, simultaneously.

peacensunshine wrote:

I'm so glad I'm not a guy sometimes, knowing how I am.

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one. It seems unfair, but it is how it has always been. I've never had to do those things as eventually, he will. And if he doesn't, then it means he isn't "man" enough to be the type of guy I want to be in a relationship with and someone will soon come along that does want me badly enough to take the risk.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

I don't know. Maybe you've just never met a guy that sparked that something inside that makes you throw all the rules out the window. I'm normally very oblivious, and hard to take a hint, and I do alright. So thank god for forward women.

Personally, when I'm spending time with someone, my goal is to achieve some sort of parity. Where things like who called who last or how many times just don't matter, and you feel comfortable enough to simply call when you feel like it, do your own thing when you don't, and feel confident that if a problem arises you can just talk about it.

Granted, I don't do longterm dating, and nothing is ever that simple, but I think it's a lot of the reason why I've managed to have so many female friends, and stay friends with them even if we sleep together (which wasn't always the case for me.)

Luggage wrote:

The sad thing is, you are spot on right there. Women are way more insecure than men, which is the sole reason for this "he has to make the effort" mindset. I think, almost everyone closing in on or passing 30 knows that the whole courtship bullcrap society tries to teach us during our childhood and teenage years has nothing to do with reality.

Women don't want good looking men, women don't want intelligent, humorous or otherwise eloquent men. Women want, even if some will never consciously admit it, a man who knows who he is, what he wants and who most of all realizes, that he doesn't need the woman. But because most of us have been taught badly and end up being needy husks of desperation, we have no chance of ever attracting or keeping a woman. At least not one with a bare minimum of self-esteem.

Luggage... I don't know. You obviously seem like a guy who has been hurt. Repeatedly. But this feels a lot like the string of comments that got our past thread locked down. Personally, I'd suggest we avoid the super blanket statements of "all guys are this" or "all girls are that".

But it also seems like you don't consider yourself a man who knows who he is and what he wants. Which I imagine severely colors your view of women and dating. And that's something you need to work on with yourself, before you blame all woman-kind. The whole learning to be alone/learning to love yourself thing has a lot to do with coming to grips with who you are, your confidence, and your place in the world as it relates to others.

And maybe I read it wrong, but that paragraph also seems to imply that intelligent, humorous, and eloquent individuals can't also know who they are and what they want. Which I find baffling. To me, most intelligent, humorous, and eloquent people I know are confident exactly because they know who they are and what they want. And even though you seem to be railing against how all women want a man who knows who he is and what he wants, you also complain about women who lack the bare minimum of self esteem, which paradoxically suggests you understand how someone can be attracted to a confident, self-assured individual.

peacensunshine wrote:

I'm so glad I'm not a guy sometimes, knowing how I am.

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one. It seems unfair, but it is how it has always been. I've never had to do those things as eventually, he will. And if he doesn't, then it means he isn't "man" enough to be the type of guy I want to be in a relationship with and someone will soon come along that does want me badly enough to take the risk.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

Easier? Sure. Better? Not so sure. The thing about never engaging in any pursuit of your own is you can only choose among those who choose to pursue you. And I wonder if that winds up being as high-quality a pool as it could be as it selects for guys who are risky/desperate as much as it selects for guys who want you badly enough. In fact, there's a possible answer for why there are so few eligible bachelors as an age group gets older related to this: decisive women pair up out of their league simply by being decisive.

peacensunshine wrote:

I'm so glad I'm not a guy sometimes, knowing how I am.

When I'm with a guy, he has to take ALL the initiative. I have NEVER made the first move physically with a new guy, pursued a guy in any way, asked a guy on a date, said I love you first, and he has to call 2-3 times to my one. It seems unfair, but it is how it has always been. I've never had to do those things as eventually, he will. And if he doesn't, then it means he isn't "man" enough to be the type of guy I want to be in a relationship with and someone will soon come along that does want me badly enough to take the risk.

It is much easier in life to be the pursued, rather than the pursuer.

I can be fairly oblivious when guys (or even girls on the few occasions that's happened) are trying to be flirty or get my attention, but if I'm interested in someone, I'll make the first move and even be pretty bold about it if I have to be. Nothing better than the look on their faces when it dawns on them, "OMG - she's going after me! I don't have to chase!" I'm not pushy about it, but I have no problem making my interest known. It's rather powerful feeling to go after what you want.

Of course, that's not say I don't enjoy being pursued either, I like a person who knows what they want and can be upfront about it, but if they aren't sure yet...well, no harm in giving them something to think about.

Luggage wrote:

And if a woman believes, I will call her three times without her making at least half the effort I am doing, she's just nowhere near the maturity level I am looking for. Sorry, but I've had my fair share of sh*t-tests. And for me to be running the gauntlet before I even know how many siblings she has, she either has to be filthy rich or bombshell material.

I've never really understood the whole "test" thing - I get jumping through hoops for credit card applications or adopting a whole hockey team worth of kids a la Brangelina, but for a date to see where maybe things might go? Bah. No one should have to earn points before they can win a simple date. It's hard enough sometimes to screw your courage to the sticking place for the first call, never mind turning into a phone-stalker for dinner and a movie.

*Edited to take the stupid out.

CheezePavilion wrote:

Easier? Sure. Better? Not so sure. The thing about never engaging in any pursuit of your own is you can only choose among those who choose to pursue you. And I wonder if that winds up being as high-quality a pool as it could be as it selects for guys who are risky/desperate as much as it selects for guys who want you badly enough. In fact, there's a possible answer for why there are so few eligible bachelors as an age group gets older related to this: decisive women pair up out of their league simply by being decisive.

Totally makes sense.

Regarding what Mimble says. I have to say, it's happened a few times and having a girl come after me is seriously awesome. *thinks back* Well, most of the time.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Easier? Sure. Better? Not so sure. The thing about never engaging in any pursuit of your own is you can only choose among those who choose to pursue you. And I wonder if that winds up being as high-quality a pool as it could be as it selects for guys who are risky/desperate as much as it selects for guys who want you badly enough. In fact, there's a possible answer for why there are so few eligible bachelors as an age group gets older related to this: decisive women pair up out of their league simply by being decisive.

Totally makes sense.

Regarding what Mimble says. I have to say, it's happened a few times and having a girl come after me is seriously awesome. *thinks back* Well, most of the time.

Excellent. Due to my social ineptitude, I will soon be among the attractive, older elite bachelors, in a sea of smokin' cougars who have limited options.

And Devil: look who's suddenly picky about whether or not a hot lady is going to skin him and wear him like a suit. Well lah-dee-dah!

ccesarano wrote:

Only alcohol I drink is Whiskey since you're not really supposed to drink it for the flavor.

Doesn't really matter what you do, as you are obviously crazy as a sh*thouse rat.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

But this feels a lot like the string of comments that got our past thread locked down. Personally, I'd suggest we avoid the super blanket statements of "all guys are this" or "all girls are that".

You know, your comment about that Carnival of Shame has gotten me thinking about something: what if women--at least women in our culture--are simply better at making men happy than men are at making women happy? Where is it written in stone that the 54th Percentile of Women will have exactly as much to offer to men as the 54th Percentile of Men has to offer to women? Heck, why do we even care what 'league' a person is in as long as they make us happy?

What if it's just the case that women have more 'chemistry' to offer than men?

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Excellent. Due to my social ineptitude, I will soon be among the attractive, older elite bachelors, in a sea of smokin' cougars who have limited options.

Well, I don't think I'm that socially inept, but I see myself heading that way too in the long run. Maybe I smell....

unntrlaffinity wrote:

And Devil: look who's suddenly picky about whether or not a hot lady is going to skin him and wear him like a suit. Well lah-dee-dah!

Well, if she's hot I will take my chances. Forward girls are sometimes, ummm, not hot. Especially the determined ones. I could tell some stories, but I won't. I like to tell the stories that make me look good.

ccesarano wrote:

1) I feel like I'd be a creeper even if she is legal.

But... but... oww.... my brain, ow!

You know, if guys in their mid-20s didn't date people ~5 years younger than them, I wouldn't exist! Think about THAT, selfish a-hole!

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Luggage... I don't know. You obviously seem like a guy who has been hurt. Repeatedly. But this feels a lot like the string of comments that got our past thread locked down. Personally, I'd suggest we avoid the super blanket statements of "all guys are this" or "all girls are that".

But it also seems like you don't consider yourself a man who knows who he is and what he wants. Which I imagine severely colors your view of women and dating. And that's something you need to work on with yourself, before you blame all woman-kind. The whole learning to be alone/learning to love yourself thing has a lot to do with coming to grips with who you are, your confidence, and your place in the world as it relates to others.

And maybe I read it wrong, but that paragraph also seems to imply that intelligent, humorous, and eloquent individuals can't also know who they are and what they want. Which I find baffling. To me, most intelligent, humorous, and eloquent people I know are confident exactly because they know who they are and what they want. And even though you seem to be railing against how all women want a man who knows who he is and what he wants, you also complain about women who lack the bare minimum of self esteem, which paradoxically suggests you understand how someone can be attracted to a confident, self-assured individual.

Let me please clear up the "has been hurt" assumption, which was also made in the last thread. I've never been broken up with, I always ended my relationships. Sometimes because they thought, they could go window-shop while keeping me on retainer, sometimes because I simply realized that except for regular pole vaulting, we wouldn't have a lot to share.
Coming from a failing relationship, you have three possibilities: blame the ex, blame yourself or analyze which mistakes were made on both ends. I tend to do the latter (obviously, I am the over-thinking type and I don't give a rat's arse about my gut), and if you say, I come across as one of those guys I describe as not knowing the who, what and how, you are right. That's exactely the point I was trying to make about being suited for dating. I know, where I want to go from a career standpoint, but that's exactly why when it comes to women, I can not have the ones I want and don't want the ones I can have.

And yes, you read it wrong. When men are younger, most uf us try to charm women by entertaining them through being witty or knowledgeable, while to woman thinks, "will he continue on about the situation in the Middle East or actually muster up the courage to take my hand or put his arm around me?". At that age, it is all a show, which we put on because at some point we were told that's the way it should go. We know the colors, but have no idea what art is. What I didn't mean to imply was that these attributes can't go hand in hand with actually having yourself figured out 10-15 years later.
But try looking at the "ignorance is bliss" fraction of guys out there. A lot of them seem to be doing quite well with the ladies, which I think is partially because it's a damn luxury to not be concerned about the way you come off, if you are stimulating a woman's mind enough or whether you should try to make eye contact now or wait until her girlfriends have left to get a new round of drinks.

That said, I like to watch human behavior and although there are no set rules and laws for human behavior, I find it exhilarating to be able to make probable predictions sometimes. The part I don't like is that I have to put myself out there, because frankly, I am too old and too cynical to "go looking" for a girl.