The Big Gun Control Thread

Malor wrote:

As Aetius so eloquently pointed out, firearms are not a difficult thing to make. With the sheer amount of money available in drug running, caused directly by its illegality, they'd have figured out a way to arm themselves regardless. And it would probably have been worse, because once they were building their own guns, they might as well make fully automatic weapons, you know?

The only reason they don't do that is the easy availability of high quality but relatively low lethality weapons. Without that existing supply, they'd have a powerful motivation to create one.

I mean, these guys are building freaking submarines. Building guns is not going to be a problem.

One, I'm not saying this is an either/or thing. I'm saying that while we attempt to decriminalize drug we take some prudent measures to restrict the flow of weapons they are using that we *know* are coming from places where they shouldn't. Think of it as a one-two punch.

Two, I think Aetius and you are wrong about the Cartel suddenly getting into the gun manufacturing business. I mean there's probably dozens of layers between the people who have so much money they are building submarines and the common dealer with a couple of street corners. The Cartel guys could give a f*cking sh*t about that dealer because he is a replaceable commodity, one that will eventually either get killed or get arrested. And every good business person knows that you don't invest resources to prolong the lifespan of a disposable asset.

That's why the Cartel likely wouldn't build and gun factory and then attempt to smuggle tens of thousands of guns into the country every year. There's nothing to be gained by it. They're already making more money than god from the drugs, so there's no profit motive. They also control the source of the whatever drug it is, so the money will work its way back to their pockets no matter who controls the street distribution.

So that leaves you with some mid-level distributor or large gang who actually has a need for weapons to protect its territory and it's a bit much to think they'd have the resources or the know-how to start manufacturing weapons.

To OG - Pot has been largely decriminalized in the States, have we seen any impact on crime because of it?

ruhk wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Pretty much this. Most crack dealers live with their mothers in public housing. It's not like they're going to be renting time on Cincinnati Millicron machines anytime soon.

Actually most improvised guns could be made from things found dumpster diving, it's just that most people, including your friendly local crackheads, wouldn't be aware of the concept of improvised guns as a possibility, let alone have the knowledge or expertise to make one. Plus, these weapons are notorious for their inaccuracy, ineffectiveness, and the tendency to blow up in the user's hand just as often as properly fire. I can't imagine that Jimmy Gang-banger would feel thrilled to use a weapon that he saw backfire and kill one of his homes the week before when he could just as easily use a knife or bat instead.

I think they might see it as a right of passage, or a badge of honor. Improvised guns would be common, and the common thug would know how to make one, if they needed to know... They just don't have a need right now. Just like any idiot can build napalm or a bomb. Hell, we knew how to make napalm in the garage pre-internet. Unless you're a terrorist, there's not much need for it. But if you are, you know how to do it. Unless you're an idiot 19yr old being schooled by the FBI.

Yup. You can make a zip gun that will blow your own hand off with basement tools, but if you want to make a reliable and accurate machinegun, you need blueprints, a lathe, a milling machine, extremely accurate measurements, a full fabrication shop, and access to high strength materials. You aren't turning out an MP5 in the ghetto.

To OG - Pot has been largely decriminalized in the States, have we seen any impact on crime because of it?

This is utterly, absolutely not true. Federal busts continue apace, even in states that ostensibly have legalized medical marijuana, and there are very few of those.

You aren't turning out an MP5 in the ghetto.

No, but if guns are made illegal, that market will become just as lucrative as the drugs trade, and the people who CAN do those things will make unbelievable amounts of money supplying the ghettos.

In any war, the people who really do well are the arms dealers.

Travel just about anywhere in Asia and the moment you land, you will be greeted by a dour customs and immigration official who will explain to you in the language of your choice that possession of, distribution of, or use of recreational drugs including marijuana is illegal and likely to result in punishments including lengthy prison sentences and/or death. As you might imagine, this does not stop the widespread use of amphetamines and marijuana in places like Taiwan and Japan (two examples I draw out of personal experience).

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

Malor wrote:
To OG - Pot has been largely decriminalized in the States, have we seen any impact on crime because of it?

This is utterly, absolutely not true. Federal busts continue apace, even in states that ostensibly have legalized medical marijuana, and there are very few of those.

You aren't turning out an MP5 in the ghetto.

No, but if guns are made illegal, that market will become just as lucrative as the drugs trade, and the people who CAN do those things will make unbelievable amounts of money supplying the ghettos.

In any war, the people who really do well are the arms dealers.

It is true. Decriminalized is not legalized, they are different, but you're arguing decriminalization leads to a decrease in crime. The following States decriminalized marijuana:

IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Map-of-US-state-cannabis-laws.svg/1000px-Map-of-US-state-cannabis-laws.svg.png)

Bright Green - States with medical cannabis laws
Olive - States with decriminalization laws
Dark Green - States with both

Looks like 14 States with decriminalization laws on the books to me. 15, actually, as they didn't update Arizona (In November 2010, Arizona voters accepted Proposition 203, with 50.16% in support, this bill will decriminalized small amounts of cannabis, repealed mandatory minimums, set up a medical cannabis program, and removed court control of non-violent drug offenders.)

That's irrelevant, because the Feds say it's illegal, and they're continuing their enforcement. The States can say whatever they want, and the Feds continue to prosecute as always.

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

They don't need them there because those countries don't have militarized drug wars underway, disproportionately aimed at minorities, creating desperate underclasses with few options.

Paleocon wrote:
Malor wrote:

That's irrelevant, because the Feds say it's illegal, and they're continuing their enforcement. The States can say whatever they want, and the Feds continue to prosecute as always.

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

They don't need them there because those countries don't have militarized drug wars underway, disproportionately aimed at minorities, creating desperate underclasses with few options.

Actually, you'd be surprised.

In Taiwan, the "shan di ren" are an oppressed minority of aboriginals who were pretty much pushed up into otherwise uninhabitable mountains. They largely make their living as underworld enforcers and prostitutes if they aren't selling sugar cane and useless knick knacks along the Central Cross Island Highway. They are routinely poorly treated by the Taiwanese police.

In Japan, that honor is bestowed on the ethnic Korean minority who are, as many will attest, treated much like African Americans were in the Deep South 50 years ago. It's pretty widely known that the Yaks prefer the brutality of Korean muscle precisely because they have so little to lose in a society that prefers to keep them a silent and powerless minority.

Why do they need underground machine gun factories? Asian mobs are armed to the teeth with real machine guns.

Malor wrote:

That's irrelevant, because the Feds say it's illegal, and they're continuing their enforcement. The States can say whatever they want, and the Feds continue to prosecute as always.

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

They don't need them there because those countries don't have militarized drug wars underway, disproportionately aimed at minorities, creating desperate underclasses with few options.

Actually, you'd be surprised.

In Taiwan, the "shan di ren" are an oppressed minority of aboriginals who were pretty much pushed up into otherwise uninhabitable mountains. They largely make their living as underworld enforcers and prostitutes if they aren't selling sugar cane and useless knick knacks along the Central Cross Island Highway. They are routinely poorly treated by the Taiwanese police.

In Japan, that honor is bestowed on the ethnic Korean minority who are, as many will attest, treated much like African Americans were in the Deep South 50 years ago. It's pretty widely known that the Yaks prefer the brutality of Korean muscle precisely because they have so little to lose in a society that prefers to keep them a silent and powerless minority.

edit: And my trip to Chiayi-shen is a perfect example of how militarized that war is. A couple friends of mine and I decided to go bowling at 3 am after getting smashed at a local watering hole. Halfway through the third frame, no less than 20 cops in riot gear with M16's pointed at the ready stormed in, demanded everyone in the whole place get on the floor, and frisked us all for weapons or dope. Upon finding nothing, they simply left. My host informed me that this was a regular occurrence because Chiayi-shen is renowned for recruiting enforcers for the Bamboo Union.

Shoal07 wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Malor wrote:

That's irrelevant, because the Feds say it's illegal, and they're continuing their enforcement. The States can say whatever they want, and the Feds continue to prosecute as always.

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

They don't need them there because those countries don't have militarized drug wars underway, disproportionately aimed at minorities, creating desperate underclasses with few options.

Actually, you'd be surprised.

In Taiwan, the "shan di ren" are an oppressed minority of aboriginals who were pretty much pushed up into otherwise uninhabitable mountains. They largely make their living as underworld enforcers and prostitutes if they aren't selling sugar cane and useless knick knacks along the Central Cross Island Highway. They are routinely poorly treated by the Taiwanese police.

In Japan, that honor is bestowed on the ethnic Korean minority who are, as many will attest, treated much like African Americans were in the Deep South 50 years ago. It's pretty widely known that the Yaks prefer the brutality of Korean muscle precisely because they have so little to lose in a society that prefers to keep them a silent and powerless minority.

Why do they need underground machine gun factories? Asian mobs are armed to the teeth with real machine guns.

Not exactly. The weapon of choice for enforcement in Taiwan and Japan appears to be the 11" sushi knife otherwise known as the Yanigiba.

IMAGE(http://www.cooking.com/images/products/shprodde/158101.jpg)

Paleocon wrote:

Not exactly. The weapon of choice for enforcement in Taiwan and Japan appears to be the 11" sushi knife otherwise known as the Yanigiba.

IMAGE(http://www.cooking.com/images/products/shprodde/158101.jpg)

Uh, a little documentary called Hard Boiled says otherwise, sir.

Paleocon wrote:
Shoal07 wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Malor wrote:

That's irrelevant, because the Feds say it's illegal, and they're continuing their enforcement. The States can say whatever they want, and the Feds continue to prosecute as always.

Where are the underground machinegun factories?

They don't need them there because those countries don't have militarized drug wars underway, disproportionately aimed at minorities, creating desperate underclasses with few options.

Actually, you'd be surprised.

In Taiwan, the "shan di ren" are an oppressed minority of aboriginals who were pretty much pushed up into otherwise uninhabitable mountains. They largely make their living as underworld enforcers and prostitutes if they aren't selling sugar cane and useless knick knacks along the Central Cross Island Highway. They are routinely poorly treated by the Taiwanese police.

In Japan, that honor is bestowed on the ethnic Korean minority who are, as many will attest, treated much like African Americans were in the Deep South 50 years ago. It's pretty widely known that the Yaks prefer the brutality of Korean muscle precisely because they have so little to lose in a society that prefers to keep them a silent and powerless minority.

Why do they need underground machine gun factories? Asian mobs are armed to the teeth with real machine guns.

Not exactly. The weapon of choice for enforcement in Taiwan and Japan appears to be the 11" sushi knife otherwise known as the Yanigiba.

IMAGE(http://www.cooking.com/images/products/shprodde/158101.jpg)

Oh, thank god, that's so much less lethal than a gun...

Shoal07 wrote:

To OG - Pot has been largely decriminalized in the States, have we seen any impact on crime because of it?

As Malor pointed out, pot has *not* been largely decriminalized. Even in dark green states, the feds regularly arrest, try, and lock up legal (at the state level, anyway) pot dispensary owners. In fact about one in every six federal prisoners are in jail because of pot and another 800,000+ people are arrested each year on possession charges. That is far from decriminalized.

As to your question about its impact on crime, it is simply too soon to tell especially since pot hasn't been decriminalized. The law enforcement fears that pot dispensaries would turn into neighborhood crime hubs have been proven wrong in pretty much every city where they exist.

Here in LA crime has taken a dive since medical marijuana dispensaries started popping up in 2003 (and quickly grew to number about a 1,000 around the city). The number of homicides dropped 38% since 2003. Robberies fell by 26%. Burglaries by 26%. Personal theft by 19%. And all property crimes (which is what you would expect for a drug user looking for some quick cash) fell by just shy of 30%.

I'm certainly not saying the fall in crime was entirely related to pot dispensaries, but at least we know that they didn't increase crime as many would have you believe.

Malor wrote:

No, but if guns are made illegal, that market will become just as lucrative as the drugs trade, and the people who CAN do those things will make unbelievable amounts of money supplying the ghettos.

In any war, the people who really do well are the arms dealers.

I'm not so sure. You're forgetting that the most common guns used at the street level aren't Glocks. They are cheap (about $100) semi-automatics. You could say there's a lot of guns on the street simply because they are so cheap. Raise their price and demand will drop. I mean when your average drug dealer barely makes minimum wage when it's all said and done they really aren't going to have $500 or more lying around to buy a smuggled, Cartel manufactured gun.

Guns would have to sell for a pretty penny for the Cartel or others to bother making and smuggling them especially when they're already smuggling items that, for their volume and weight, are so much more profitable. I mean if you were going to bother to smuggle a ton of something into the States would you chose a ton of Saturday Night Specials or a ton of coke?

On the subject of guns coming into the country.... It looks like the movement of guns is actually OUT.

link

No other state has produced more guns seized by police in the brutal Mexican drug wars than Texas. In the Lone Star State, no other city has more guns linked to Mexican crime scenes than Houston. And in the Texas oil town, no single independent dealer stands out more for selling guns traced from south of the border than Bill Carter.

Ah, exporting freedom one gun at a time!

OG_slinger wrote:

Ah, exporting freedom one gun at a time!

Freedom isn't free. Though at these prices, it might as well be!

Paleocon wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Ah, exporting freedom one gun at a time!

Freedom isn't free. Though at these prices, it might as well be!

Be the first kid on your block to get a confirmed Federale kill!

Wow. These laws seem remarkably effective.

But a year-long Washington Post investigation documented about 60 cases since 2003 in which the businesses stayed open, often re-licensed through relatives, employees, associates or newly formed companies.

"We'll just have to play musical licenses," the owner of the Highland Gun Barn in Michigan said when a federal inspector served him with a final notice to surrender his license.

If the only recourse the government has to folks selling guns to crack fiends is to pull their license and it is that easy to get one reinstated, perhaps we should be looking for a more effective remedy. I, for one and as a self described gun nut, don't have a problem with tossing folks in jail and shutting stores down for good if they can't or won't do what is in their power to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous felons.

Paleocon wrote:

Wow. These laws seem remarkably effective.

But a year-long Washington Post investigation documented about 60 cases since 2003 in which the businesses stayed open, often re-licensed through relatives, employees, associates or newly formed companies.

"We'll just have to play musical licenses," the owner of the Highland Gun Barn in Michigan said when a federal inspector served him with a final notice to surrender his license.

If the only recourse the government has to folks selling guns to crack fiends is to pull their license and it is that easy to get one reinstated, perhaps we should be looking for a more effective remedy. I, for one and as a self described gun nut, don't have a problem with tossing folks in jail and shutting stores down for good if they can't or won't do what is in their power to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous felons.

I'll certainly agree with that.

My family is looking into purchasing a small business. We looked into a number of different ones and some of the more lucrative ones include cigarettes and liquor. The paperwork with the control of those items is pretty stringent and the penalties for screwing it up are downright draconian. Sell liquor to a minor and you're financially ass raped. Try to re-open under the wife's name and ATF will absolutely beat the living snail snot out of you legally. And no one is suggesting that this sort of regulation has or will result in the disappearance of our drinking rights.

I, honestly, don't see why we can't do the same for guns.

washingtonpost.com/guns

Has their special report. I was listening to NPR last night (while planning my lamentably last-minute War on Christmas) and one of the guests said a judge threw out a case related to dealers allowing straw purchases, because it basically amounts to a class 1 misdemeanor; his reasoning is all you're doing is lying on a form.

The Arizona shooting thread has pretty much turned into a discussion on gun control.

Arise. Walk again.

I think the part that seems to always get missed by folks on the advocacy side of 2nd Amendment rights is the whole "well regulated" part. There is nothing, in particular, well regulated about the sort of anarchic "everyone has a right to be armed" nonsense being currently spouted as the remedy for public security and "encroaching government tyranny".

With the possible exception of the Korean American response to the Los Angeles Riots, the recent history of armed citizen militias have almost exclusively looked like this:

IMAGE(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Liojofdj514/TQKa8_I3YzI/AAAAAAAAA-c/v_earo26c-4/s1600/klan.jpg)

If this is the "right" folks are fighting for, count me out.

Good folks on this site have pointed out that the main purpose of the 2nd amendment was to allow the local stockpiling of weapons and the rapid formation of militias in time of war. That rationale no longer holds true, since small arms are no longer sufficient to stave off a determined invasion.

At this point, it seems to me that the main thrust of people who are for "gun rights" is the easy acquisition and sale of guns, for various purposes.

Well, remember, there was also the "we need weapons for hunting" bloc, and the "no one should have weapons" states. So it was a wide range.

Paleocon wrote:

With the possible exception of the Korean American response to the Los Angeles Riots, the recent history of armed citizen militias have almost exclusively looked like this:
If this is the "right" folks are fighting for, count me out.

Well, there were also Black Panthers. When THEY tried to walk around with guns in California, Ronald Reagan, being a pinko liberal he was, swiftly enacted a series of gun control laws.

Robear wrote:

Well, remember, there was also the "we need weapons for hunting" bloc, and the "no one should have weapons" states. So it was a wide range.

You need neither a semiautomatic pistol nor a high-powered rifle for hunting. I'm willing to bet that the minority of gun-related fatalities that occur every year are due to hunting rifles.

LarryC wrote:
Robear wrote:

Well, remember, there was also the "we need weapons for hunting" bloc, and the "no one should have weapons" states. So it was a wide range.

You need neither a semiautomatic pistol nor a high-powered rifle for hunting. I'm willing to bet that the minority of gun-related fatalities that occur every year are due to hunting rifles.

Actually, a high powered rifle is precisely what you need for hunting (eg: my Winchester 70 bolt action .30-06 is ideal for everything from deer to bear and everything in between).

Paleocon wrote:

(eg: my Winchester 70 bolt action .30-06 is ideal for everything from deer to bear and everything in between).

Wouldn't want to get between a deer and a bear.

Sorry.

Paleocon wrote:
LarryC wrote:
Robear wrote:

Well, remember, there was also the "we need weapons for hunting" bloc, and the "no one should have weapons" states. So it was a wide range.

You need neither a semiautomatic pistol nor a high-powered rifle for hunting. I'm willing to bet that the minority of gun-related fatalities that occur every year are due to hunting rifles.

Actually, a high powered rifle is precisely what you need for hunting (eg: my Winchester 70 bolt action .30-06 is ideal for everything from deer to bear and everything in between).

My mistake. Not assault rifles, though, surely?