Come fellow firearm owners, we must chat.

AK 47s and even 74's last freaken forever. Literally can dig them up out of the ground after a few years and fire them (after cleaning)

MaverickDago wrote:

AK 47s and even 74's last freaken forever. Literally can dig them up out of the ground after a few years and fire them (after cleaning)

As long as the bore and action are free of obstruction. To a greater or lesser extent, that is pretty much true of any firearm. The critical difference, however, is that the AK is designed with very, very sloppy tolerances which allow for a greater degree of "cheat" between moving parts. The obvious drawback of that is that its "legendary reliability" is also accompanied by "legendary inaccuracy". It's a Third World bush gun and a damned good one at that, but it's still a Third World bush gun.

I was seriously considering a drive to the gun shop tomorrow to pick up the SP01, but it's gone out of stock sometime in the last day or two.

I guess an even longer wait is what I get for waiting in the first place

Don't you hate it when the universe gives you mixed messages on procrastination?

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Don't you hate it when the universe gives you mixed messages on procrastination?

It wasn't so much procrastination but a want to completely pay off the charge for the AR on my credit card first. Now that I've done that the gun's gone out of stock.

Screw this financial responsibility stuff. I want a new gun.

Maybe I'll just get the CZ 97 and join the supposedly wonderful world of the .45.

Thin_J wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Don't you hate it when the universe gives you mixed messages on procrastination?

It wasn't so much procrastination but a want to completely pay off the charge for the AR on my credit card first. Now that I've done that the gun's gone out of stock.

Screw this financial responsibility stuff. I want a new gun.

Maybe I'll just get the CZ 97 and join the supposedly wonderful world of the .45.

It's a pretty nice .45, but it is pretty huge as well. I'm more impressed with the 75 myself -- even if it is a girly caliber.

Well I have big gorilla paws for hands. I went with the Glock the first time for a few reasons. One: the store I was in carries nothing from CZ, so I had none of their stuff to compare to. Two: the only HK product they had was a full size USP that had a price tag of $1200-something on it. More than I was interested in spending at the time. And three: The Glock 17 was the only pistol they had that felt good in my hand. The XD was too small, even with the biggest of the little grip adapters on it. I liked the angle of the grip itself, but my hand bunches up around that skinny little thing. The S&W M&P series was a bit better than the XD on the feel side, but felt weird for some reason. Couldn't peg what it was.

Current curiosities aside from the CZ stuff include the HK45 that Edwin mentioned earlier (Sexy! $900 though.) and a Springfield Milspec 1911 for $650ish. Also the FNP45. And the HK P30.

I started watching a bunch of videos after my dad told me about some rifle he saw on TV. A few choice clips.

M-110 or SR-25. Video 2. Wiki

Then there is the Magpul Masada. Full auto test. Wiki

Lastly the LWRC PSD. Video 2

I've been keeping an eye on the Masada for a while. I fully expect pricing to price it right out of the range of the average buyer though, keeping it from being any kind of real contender for the standard AR-15.

Of course that's assuming the standard semi-auto version of the Masada even makes it to market before the assault weapons ban shows up again, which is something I actually doubt.

Oh, anybody here have any comments on Sig pistols? There's a nice deal on a new P226 9mm with 3 mags. Weight on the gun looks to be similar to the CZ and people seem to love the 226.

The closest you'll get to an affordable SR-25 is going to be either the DPMS Panther in .308 or the Fulton Armory Titan 308. Both are very nice guns.

The Armalite AR10 in 308 is nice too, but both pricey and uses a number of proprietary parts that generally make it a pain in the ass.

Of course that's assuming the standard semi-auto version of the Masada even makes it to market before the assault weapons ban shows up again, which is something I actually doubt.

I thought Magpul had said after SHOT Show that they weren't making a civilian version of the Magpul.

From what I read they licesenced everything to bushmaster. They say on their site early 2009.

Thin_J wrote:

Oh, anybody here have any comments on Sig pistols? There's a nice deal on a new P226 9mm with 3 mags. Weight on the gun looks to be similar to the CZ and people seem to love the 226.

Generally well-regarded, though I have no personally experience with them.

Paleocon wrote:

The closest you'll get to an affordable SR-25 is going to be either the DPMS Panther in .308 or the Fulton Armory Titan 308. Both are very nice guns.

The Armalite AR10 in 308 is nice too, but both pricey and uses a number of proprietary parts that generally make it a pain in the ass.

I've been eyeing the Fulton M14. I just can't decide which version to get first. Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), Close Quarter Battle (CQB), or Semi-Auto Sniper System (SASS). http://www.fulton-armory.com/

Edwin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

The closest you'll get to an affordable SR-25 is going to be either the DPMS Panther in .308 or the Fulton Armory Titan 308. Both are very nice guns.

The Armalite AR10 in 308 is nice too, but both pricey and uses a number of proprietary parts that generally make it a pain in the ass.

I've been eyeing the Fulton M14. I just can't decide which version to get first. Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), Close Quarter Battle (CQB), or Semi-Auto Sniper System (SASS). http://www.fulton-armory.com/

That really depends most on the range you intend to shoot. That CQB won't hit much of anything past about 400M, but it will just about OWN anything inside of 350. Seeing as I have nowhere to shoot outside of 200M around here, my choices are pretty easy to make. Plus, as my Navy SEAL friend put it last weekend, "If you're outside of 350, move closer".

I haven't really decided one how I want to lay out my plans but I think purchasing with intended range is the way to go. What are the typical ranges for types of weapons?

Short = pistol? (HK45?)
short-medium = smg?
medium = carbine or rifle? (Magpul Masada? Fulton CQB? HK416?)
long = rifle? (Fulton SASS? SR-25? Fulton Titan 308?)

Obviously these are just examples.

Below are my estimates. Based upon ability to hit a target accurately, and still be able to do significant damage with the selected gun/round combination, assuming open sights, for the most part. Although you can hit targets with a short-barrelled AR at 300-400 yds, the amount of damage done at those ranges decreases significantly (no bullet fragmentation, at least with FMJ). Again, you can hit targets with a .308 out to 1000 yds, it takes a lot of training, practice, and high-quality firearms and ammo to hit accurately at those ranges.

Edwin wrote:

Short = pistol 25 yds, shotgun 25 yds
short-medium = smg 75 yds (9mm)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308)

bennard wrote:

Below are my estimates. Based upon ability to hit a target accurately, and still be able to do significant damage with the selected gun/round combination, assuming open sights, for the most part. Although you can hit targets with a short-barrelled AR at 300-400 yds, the amount of damage done at those ranges decreases significantly (no bullet fragmentation, at least with FMJ). Again, you can hit targets with a .308 out to 1000 yds, it takes a lot of training, practice, and high-quality firearms and ammo to hit accurately at those ranges.

Edwin wrote:

Short = pistol 25 yds, shotgun 25 yds
short-medium = smg 75 yds (9mm)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308)

Really? I keep reading how people constantly get 500 meters on a regular M16 or M4 and using their M14 to get 800 meters. Not sure what to do.

Edwin wrote:
bennard wrote:

Below are my estimates. Based upon ability to hit a target accurately, and still be able to do significant damage with the selected gun/round combination, assuming open sights, for the most part. Although you can hit targets with a short-barrelled AR at 300-400 yds, the amount of damage done at those ranges decreases significantly (no bullet fragmentation, at least with FMJ). Again, you can hit targets with a .308 out to 1000 yds, it takes a lot of training, practice, and high-quality firearms and ammo to hit accurately at those ranges.

Edwin wrote:

Short = pistol 25 yds, shotgun 25 yds
short-medium = smg 75 yds (9mm)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308)

Really? I keep reading how people constantly get 500 meters on a regular M16 or M4 and using their M14 to get 800 meters. Not sure what to do.

You're right. .223 is certainly accurate well beyond 150 depending on the rifle, the shooter, and the optics. You might, however, run into a kinetic energy problem if you intend to actually use it to kill something much beyond the point at which that round goes subsonic. 350 is about as far as I feel confident actually killing something larger than a groundhog, though I've heard of folks taking coyote beyond that.

I would recommend against the smg. Class three weapons cost a ton and ammo ain't cheap. Whatever you need it for, you'll be able to do with an AR15 cheaper, faster, and better.

If you're looking for rifles capable of shooting beyond 600, you're really talking bolties. Unless you are willing to spend ass-raping amounts of cash, you're only real play is to go with a tactical bolty. Pretty much the only real dog in that hunt nowadays is the Remmy 700 in either LTR, PSS, or VLS configurations. I know some folks like the VTR, but it's garbage. Any one of those will run you around $1100-1300 off the rack. You'll probably want to spend another $1200-1600 on quality optics. I recommend the Leupold Mark 4 mildot in the straight 10x fixed. Variable power is for lazy fcuks. Season the barrel well from the start and keep a meticulous range log. Stay consistent with your ammo and make notes about EVERYTHING. Date-Time and temp, ammo (including lot number), range, weather, shooting position, wind, light,.... EVERYTHING. Write commentary on your cold shot and how things progressed. Swab your barrel as often as it needs.

Shooting precision rifle is not something to be approached with half measures. If you aren't going to spend the time, the money won't mean anything. The easiest step is to spend the $3000+ you'll need in order to get a starter's rig. The rough part is the discipline necessary to learn the art. Doing it well is every bit as difficult as learning to play a musical instrument.

Interesting. This is really helping me whittle down what I want/need. I'm pretty much thinking this might be the ideal setup for me.

Short = pistol 25 yds (.45 ACP) (HK45)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223/5.56 NATO) (Magpul Masada? HK416?)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308/7.62 NATO) (Fulton QCB? SASS? DMR? Springfield SOCOM II? SOCOM 16? Loaded? Custom myself? LRB?)

If I promise I'm not being trite, can I just say how ridiculous gun ownership in general is? Why on Earth a normal everyday citizen would need to own an M16 or even a pistol is just preposterous. Guns are for putting holes in other living creatures. It's archaic and I would hope to think as a planet we will one day move beyond this.

If you really feel the need to kill another living creature, do us all a favor and do it with your bare hands? At least then you 'earned it'.

isobelle wrote:

If I promise I'm not being trite, can I just say how ridiculous gun ownership in general is? Why on Earth a normal everyday citizen would need to own an M16 or even a pistol is just preposterous. Guns are for putting holes in other living creatures. It's archaic and I would hope to think as a planet we will one day move beyond this.

If you really feel the need to kill another living creature, do us all a favor and do it with your bare hands? At least then you 'earned it'.

If you read the original post, this thread is not about whether or not anyone should own a gun. If you want to have this sort of discussion, bring it up in P&C please.

isobelle wrote:

If I promise I'm not being trite, can I just say

No.

Reaper81 wrote:
Of course that's assuming the standard semi-auto version of the Masada even makes it to market before the assault weapons ban shows up again, which is something I actually doubt.

I thought Magpul had said after SHOT Show that they weren't making a civilian version of the Magpul.

Magpul may not, but like Edwin mentioned Bushmaster still plans to get a civilian version out under the ACR name. Of course I hadn't read much about the SHOT show so it's very possible I missed an announcement of some kind.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
isobelle wrote:

If I promise I'm not being trite, can I just say

No.

And to Isobelle, the answer is indeed no. As Bennard noted there are threads in P&C for that discussion. Feel free to join them. I'd actually appreciate it if you edited out your comment in this thread as it has no bearing whatsoever on the conversation at hand.

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The more I read the more I think that a 7.62 Nato for medium range would serve me well by keeping things simple logistics wise on ammo.

Short = pistol 25 yds (.45 ACP) (HK45)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223/5.56 NATO or .308/7.62 NATO) (Magpul Masada/Bushmaster ACR as it comes in both 5.56 and 7.62? HK416? FN-FAL? G3? AK something?)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308/7.62 NATO) (Fulton QCB? SASS? DMR? Springfield SOCOM II? SOCOM 16? Loaded? Custom myself? LRB? )

Are you wanting a long range hunting weapon/ tack driver, or you planning to take down a dictator? 75 ft isn't happening with a pistol thats not designed as a target pistol/under perfect conditions. At 600 yards your talking a fairly experienced marksman, very few places even have ranges that long.

Edwin wrote:

The more I read the more I think that a 7.62 Nato for medium range would serve me well by keeping things simple logistics wise on ammo.

Short = pistol 25 yds (.45 ACP) (HK45)
medium = carbine 150 yds (.223/5.56 NATO or .308/7.62 NATO) (Magpul Masada/Bushmaster ACR as it comes in both 5.56 and 7.62? HK416? FN-FAL? G3? AK something?)
long = rifle 600 yds (.308/7.62 NATO) (Fulton QCB? SASS? DMR? Springfield SOCOM II? SOCOM 16? Loaded? Custom myself? LRB? )

I think, with ammo prices the way they are, you'd probably be well advised to get some flavor of .22LR as well. I do the majority of my shooting with a .22 now and find that it reinforces good technique and helps to correct bad habits.

For longer range stuff, I recommend the .223. Unless you have a range that you can shoot well over 200M, the difference you'll find between the .223 and .308 will be pretty negligible.

Another thing you'll notice with the Springfield M1A is that though it makes for a fantastic open iron sight rifle, it doesn't have an elegant solution for mounting optics. The only spot they can put a rail and rings tends to go out of true pretty easily and is also the barrel heat sink. If you shoot slowly and occasionally, it shouldn't matter much. However, if you drag it through the field and/or shoot a LOT, you might actually find that the heat transferred through the rail will actually damage your $1500 optics.

Yet another reason to get the bolty.

Another option (just to truly complicate things) is to go with the DS Arms STG58. Not exactly a tactical tackdriver, but very accurate out to about 350M and a whole lot of fun to boot.

MaverickDago wrote:

Are you wanting a long range hunting weapon/ tack driver, or you planning to take down a dictator? 75 ft isn't happening with a pistol thats not designed as a target pistol/under perfect conditions. At 600 yards your talking a fairly experienced marksman, very few places even have ranges that long.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "tackdriver". I'm not knocking the bottom out of a styrofoam cup with my USP at 75 feet, but I'm certainly blowing out the center of a paper plate. I figure that is well good enough.

A decent handgun is at least capable of 3" groups at 75 feet (25 yards).

1) Any recommendations on a .22lr then? I know for pistols a Ruger Mk 2 but any others?
2) When you say difference between the .223 and .308, do you mean in range, kinetic energy, stopping power, kill factor, material penetration, something else?
3) Looks like the Springfield's are out of the question then unless I can prevent the heat from transferring to the optics.
4) DSA seems to have a lot of nice looking ones. Trying to narrow done a specific model will prove difficult.
5) I can't find a good definition online for "tackdriver".