Come fellow firearm owners, we must chat.

Paleo said more stuff...... Those are all great reasons for the 700. I went the Savage route because I found both guns used at great prices. I also liked the "no work needed" aspect of the Savage. My friend who is mentoring me reloading and in F-Class shoots a 700 PSS with a tight neck .308 chamber. It has had a ton of work done to it though.

Both of my Savages are heavy, but I got them to for a prairie dog shoot a few years ago. I wasn't overly worried about weight. The 300wm I am working on is a custom barreled Savage 110. I put a 26" McGowan tube on it that was threaded for my AAC Titan. I figure it will weight somewhere around 13.5 lbs with scope and suppressor. It will be a pussycat to shoot and I don't have to hump it around for F-Class.

Yeah. He has been trying to get me to consider 300wsm, but I figure .308 is more widely available, the charts are easier to come by and learn, glass is engineered around it, and my eyes are never going to be good enough to shoot out to the edge of 300wsm range anyway irrespective of optics. I figure 7-800 is going to be the limits of my eyesight and .308 even with a 20" barrel will be plenty to get me out that far at sub MOA accuracy.

Mostly, the .308 is because I don't trust .223 for one shot incapacitation outside of knife range (~100m). Inside that distance, the exsanguination is, as my marine buddy puts it, "pretty f*cking outstanding" -- especially with 62gr NATO green tip (of which I am sitting on about 2000 rounds).

I have been reading up quite a bit on the performance characteristics of .308 match ammo (168gr Sierra Match King) and quite a bit of ink has been spilt on whether or not going shorter actually increases accuracy (tightens groups) up to transonic distances. Since I am committed to 800 or less, I figure going to a 24 or 26 is only going to buy me greater MV I am not likely to use, so dropping the transonic from WBF to BFE is not going to inconvenience me in the slightest. I figure if I am trying a shot at greater than that distance, I have bigger things to worry about than my choice in firearm.

Bullet drop is, of course, going to be an issue, but once you figure out your DOP, you have it figured out (and proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance, so print it on your flip up lens cap and forget it). In any event, any rifle is going to require the obligatory breaking in and familiarization. And considering how many thousands of folks have the 700 LTR in the 20" fluted barrel (with the HS Precision stock) and shoot 168 MK, I figure the think work has probably already been done a couple thousand times by folks a lot more redneck than me.

fishdude wrote:

I currently shoot 17.5 grains of H110 for my 16" AR and get 2000-2050fps. Using the same load from my 16" T/C it will hover about 2100. I have experimented with as low as 15 grains. I was looking for a reliable plinker that didn't burn a ton of powder.

Thanks, that puts me in the ball park for what I'm after. Right now I will be loading 17gr of Lil'Gun for 125gr Nosler BT. I have access to 147gr pull downs but couldn't find any published recipe for a mid range bullet and I know why. Your recipe is right around what I've been reading on the intertubes. I'm not real comfortable with wildcat loads but I'm starting to get there with this.

I too considered the 300wsm. I went with the 300wm because I already had a freind who loads for it. I also caught LC head stamp 300wm brass online one day. This is the stuff the AMU has been shooting for years. Much like the LC brass for other calibers, that stuff is awesome.

You have your .308 well thought out. The only thing I might suggest is looking at the 175 SMK as well. Marginally heavier, but cuts the wind a little better. Also do not discout the Berger VLD and Hunting VLD pills. They are not cheap, but they are excellent alternatives to SMK.

Bullet drop in not an issue when you have pre planned like you are talking about. Anyone who shoots distance is crazy for not having a range card of some sorts. When we went prairie dog shooting, I have a card taped to the stock of all three rifles. Pet load worked in 25 yard increments. We knew max distance in the fields we were shooting, so my cards stopped at 550. All three rifles I took are capable of more, but it was less data to prepare.

A bunch of my buddies have been talking up the 175smk, but they say the big advantage in it is that it helps you eke out more range. Like I said, I figure I am going to be a short shooter anyway, so that is not as big an issue for me as it might be for some. That said, it is never a bad idea to keep a box around along with a corresponding range card in case the occasion arises that heavier punch at range is needed.

I just figure that 168smk is where nearly everyone I know starts. There has to be a reason for it even if it is just dumb tradition.

Paleocon wrote:
ringsnort wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I looked at the 10fp but around here they cost as much as the 700 in similar configuration. I figure if it is six one, i might as well go with the one my master armorer buddy prefers to work on.

In any event, the optimal configuration would have to take into account the following factors:

1) 7.62 NATO to accomodate my access to ammunition.
2) accurate to at most 1 MOA out to 500m.
3) maneuverable enough to be carried on a stalk (ie: no 12lb, 24+" barrel, 40x benchrest guns).
4) take optics well
5) be of a relatively standard military configuration such that it can be worked on by my master armorer.
6) be as light on proprietary nonsense as possible (ie: probably no AR10's because of the mammoth pissing matches every manufacturer has over magazines, bits and pieces).

So no dumbass AK's chambered for .308. No DPMS Panthers. No brass crimping HK's.

Mostly, the discussion is down to some flavor of FN-FAL (STG58 short barrel or Imbel), some flavor of M1A (scout or SOCOM), or some flavor of bolty (700 LTR or SPS Tac).

It may or may not turn out to be your optimal .308, but I firmly believe a 700 is in your future. Between great accuracy out of the box with a proven and time tested platform *and* the fact you have access to what sounds like a top flight armorer who specializes in 700 bolty accurization? Plus you also seem to like the 700 a great deal. I'm telling you, the stars are not going to get more aligned than that. Call it destiny. Call it kismitt. Whatever. At this point, why not do it? Let your armorer work his magic and enjoy the experience. And, if it's not for you, selling shouldn't be a problem either. All I ask is photos if and when it's all done.

The dude used to make M40's for Quantico marines and now does the same for federal law enforcement. If I don't use him as a resource, shame on me.

He is a master armorer on all kinds of stuff though including the M14. He has an M21 he built for personal consumption that he has grown bored with and wanted to know if I wanted to buy it off him. That is a bit too rich for my blood though and far more rifle than I will ever use. He's selling it with the glass and the authentic Leatherwood on it doesn't match my style of shooting and it is $1000 by itself.

I think the toughest part with going the 700 route is knowing where to stop. And for that you really need to have a roadmap. If you don't define from the start what success looks like, you'll wake up in 18 months with a frankengun and a bunch of spare parts that just cost you $4000.

Apologies, Paleo. I didn't intend to sound like I was telling you how to spend your money. Sure, the frankengun would be cool, but its easy to see how careful forethought is required before making that buy decision.

Well thought out. Most people I talk to about range cards and load data get a big blank stare. It sounds like you are getting great advice to go with the knowledge you already have.

Too bad you are in MD. I would love to shoot with you sometime.

ringsnort wrote:

Apologies, Paleo. I didn't intend to sound like I was telling you how to spend your money. Sure, the frankengun would be cool, but its easy to see how careful forethought is required before making that buy decision.

None needed. I appreciate the opportunity to explain my thinking. It helps me figure things out.

fishdude wrote:

Well thought out. Most people I talk to about range cards and load data get a big blank stare. It sounds like you are getting great advice to go with the knowledge you already have.

Too bad you are in MD. I would love to shoot with you sometime.

The big decision is whether to start with the SPS Tactical (at the much more reasonable price point, but cheezy pillar bedded Hogue stock and standard barrel) or to spend the cash up front and go with the LTR with its nicer trigger, H&S Precision stock and delicious fluted barrel to start. I figure I will want the nicer stock eventually, but there are a couple critical questions I will need answered.

Will the H&S be where the stock upgrade stops? My buddy says nothing shoots as nice as an AICS and nothing even comes close to it. When he got his, he locked in a POS 700BDL with a shot out standard taper barrel and it was shooting sub MOA from benchrest. In sharp contrast, he says he can't tell much difference between the Hogue and the H&S in his groups.

How much will I miss the better barrel if I start off low? The fluted barrel, I'm told makes a huge amount of difference as does the better trigger. I can probably get an expert trigger job for free (or a case of home brew beer if I am feeling generous) so that isn't as big a deal as it might be to some, but the barrel is something I would probably miss.

And lastly, how much do I want to spend on glass? The general rule is that S&B is not twice as good as a NF, which is not twice as good as a Leupold, which is not twice as good as Nikon, which is not twice as good as Millett, but somewhere between Millet and S&B is where the "appropriate" glass is. I currently shoot with a Millett Tactical on my AR15 and find it plenty bright and accurate for my tastes at up to 200, but have no idea how much I will miss better glass once I double or triple that range. Otoh, my other friend who shoots NM with a Springfield '06 in 6.5-06 Wildcat and is many many many times the shooter I will ever be uses a Millett and says it is more glass than he will ever need. So there is that.

Decisions.

You might also consider buying an action from Brownells or some other retailer. Save money on initial cost and build it the way you want from the start with no parts laying around. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts... Don't overlook the availability of a beater used gun either.

Glass is a whole separate bag of beans. I have looked through, but not shot a PM2. They are top of the chain. I have shot a NF benchrest, not tactical, and it was great. Same goes with Leupold. I personally have a Bushnell 6500 4.5-30 that I am in love with. I have shot this to 600 yards on my Savage 12BV in .223. I had no need to turn it past about 18x when PD hunting. Bushnell has a new line called Tactical that is pretty much the 6500 series. They are very clear with no issue, zero return. Bonus is they are priced from $800-1200.

I looked at the Bushnell elite and it looks pretty cool. I don't have any issues with Chinese glass as long as it spots clear. One of the ones I've looked at recently has been the Horus. Not bad. Looks like the Chinese are getting pretty good at it.

ragin_redneck wrote:
fishdude wrote:

I currently shoot 17.5 grains of H110 for my 16" AR and get 2000-2050fps. Using the same load from my 16" T/C it will hover about 2100. I have experimented with as low as 15 grains. I was looking for a reliable plinker that didn't burn a ton of powder.

Thanks, that puts me in the ball park for what I'm after. Right now I will be loading 17gr of Lil'Gun for 125gr Nosler BT. I have access to 147gr pull downs but couldn't find any published recipe for a mid range bullet and I know why. Your recipe is right around what I've been reading on the intertubes. I'm not real comfortable with wildcat loads but I'm starting to get there with this.

I caught the 147 on sale at Midway last summer as blems. They shoot really well at our range when popping steel. I have not shot anything in the 125 range. I shoot primarily 208 AMAX subsonic through my AAC Cyclone. They hunt very well and it is the same pill I run through my 300wm. My buddy shoots 220smk from his carbine and has zero issues either.

I really don't consider this one a wildcat. There was a ton of load data when the whisper was popular and now it is SAMII spec. I had looked at the 6x45 before making this move. I am also currently pondering a 338-06.

I looked at the configurator on SniperCentral just because I wanted to see what the wish list for a 700 would look like and how much it would cost. My "ultimate" rifle comes out to about $3500 (including optics of course). Obviously, it is not ever going to get that far.

In sharp contrast, I figure the low end of the spectrum looks like about $1000 if I get the SPS Tactical and a Millett TRS.

Do you have an AR? Sell it for a ridiculously inflated price and put the money into the new rig

clover wrote:

Do you have an AR? Sell it for a ridiculously inflated price and put the money into the new rig :)

I do. I built it myself from a stripped Stag Arms(tm) lower and Fulton Armory(tm) parts kit and had it inspected and function tested by my Marine Corps armorer. It is, unfortunately exactly how I want it configured and it would take a good deal of effort at this point to do it again.

Otoh, I could sell half the 5.56 I have in the safe and still have enough for a shiny new shootin' iron.

If someone sees a CZ Kadet Kit somewhere, could you let me know? I'd like to get one and treat myself for my birthday but its sold out everywhere.

Paleocon wrote:

It is, unfortunately exactly how I want it configured and it would take a good deal of effort at this point to do it again.

This is where I eventually got to with my AR-15 too, and it's the reason I haven't already sold it. It took years but I finally ended up really happy with it.

In any event, how do I go about selling 1000 rounds of Georgia Arms Canned Heat? I figure there is no point selling the good stuff and I figure I can probably get at least $1000 for it. That should at least get me started on the rifle I want.

Paleocon wrote:

In any event, how do I go about selling 1000 rounds of Georgia Arms Canned Heat? I figure there is no point selling the good stuff and I figure I can probably get at least $1000 for it. That should at least get me started on the rifle I want.

Does GunBroker do ammo sales?

TigerBill wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

In any event, how do I go about selling 1000 rounds of Georgia Arms Canned Heat? I figure there is no point selling the good stuff and I figure I can probably get at least $1000 for it. That should at least get me started on the rifle I want.

Does GunBroker do ammo sales?

Looks like GunBroker, GunsAmerica, and several other specialty auction sites all do ammo sales. However, in this market, I'd save the auction fees and shipping hassles and sell local. Spend 10 minutes in your favorite local fun store and you'll likely have multiple cash buyers. Local laws apply. Your mileage may vary.

http://www.armslist.com/

Set your price, take a photo and post it to your region. It's the craigslist of firearms, ammo and accessories.

Okay. I listed 1000 rounds of Georgia Arms canned heat at $1000 or trade for the right bolty. I think it is a little aggressive, but not terribly considering how much I have seen 5.56 going for these days.

Most of the listings I have seen have been more that a little unrealistic. One person was selling a 700 sps tactical with a millet trs for $1300 used. I can get one new for less than that.

clover wrote:

Do you have an AR? Sell it for a ridiculously inflated price and put the money into the new rig :)

Prices have come back down to almost normal for guns. Ammo is the gold mine now. I think if I sold all of my ammo at the current rates, I could pay off my house. I would not be able to defend it though.....

Paleo, you might also try going to a gun show. Make a sign and walk around. Right before the craziness hit, I upgraded all of my old C-Products magazines to PMAG. I sold all of my C-Products and my 60rd Surefire at a show while walking around. Here in TX we have Texas Guntrader. I have sold guns and ammo on there. Do you have anything like that in MD?

fishdude wrote:
clover wrote:

Do you have an AR? Sell it for a ridiculously inflated price and put the money into the new rig :)

Prices have come back down to almost normal for guns. Ammo is the gold mine now. I think if I sold all of my ammo at the current rates, I could pay off my house. I would not be able to defend it though.....

Non sequitur reply of the day: Unless it's purpose built, the construction materials and methods typically used for modern homes cannot be said to prove cover, only concealment.

It's Spring storm season down here so techniques for hardening a room as a storm / panic shelter has been on my mind.

Awesome. Even funnier since we get a few hurricanes int he Houston area. Hell, we had 70mph wind for a storm that blew through yesterday morning.

ringsnort wrote:
fishdude wrote:
clover wrote:

Do you have an AR? Sell it for a ridiculously inflated price and put the money into the new rig :)

Prices have come back down to almost normal for guns. Ammo is the gold mine now. I think if I sold all of my ammo at the current rates, I could pay off my house. I would not be able to defend it though.....

Non sequitur reply of the day: Unless it's purpose built, the construction materials and methods typically used for modern homes cannot be said to prove cover, only concealment.

Hence why my buddy suggested I keep my safe at the top of my stairs.

edit: the gun show idea is not a bad one. I think I might have to do that.

Unfortunately, the next MD gun show is in Annapolis and isn't until next month.

I am actually jealous of a show next month. For about the last 15 years we have had a show at least every two weeks in the Houston area. I hate it. None of the shows are as good as they once were and most pretty much suck. Even before the craziness started, prices at the shows had gotten out of hand. People seem to think you always get a good deal at the show and the vendors, understandably, take advantage of a captive audience. Now all we get is high prices and 5x as many people who have now decided they need ammo.

fishdude wrote:

I am actually jealous of a show next month. For about the last 15 years we have had a show at least every two weeks in the Houston area. I hate it. None of the shows are as good as they once were and most pretty much suck. Even before the craziness started, prices at the shows had gotten out of hand. People seem to think you always get a good deal at the show and the vendors, understandably, take advantage of a captive audience. Now all we get is high prices and 5x as many people who have now decided they need ammo.

Is it unreasonable for me to think I could get an SPS Tactical bolty with Chinese optics in exchange for 1000 rounds of Georgia Arms Canned Heat?

No, but you probably have a better chance of getting the cash first. If you had access to a site like Texas Gunbroker I would say it would happen. I think you may end up with better glass than what you are aiming for. I figure you can get the SPS for about $500 used. Might even do better than that. I did a quick search and they are available for about $675 new. Spend the rest on glass and mounts. The ones I say had a 20mil mount built in.