Come fellow firearm owners, we must chat.

I've shot trap with my Mossberg 590 and done better than someone who does it more often that was shooting an expensive over/under.

It's certainly a lot smoother going with an over/under though.

Exactly. If you are out for fun, have at it. If you are wanting to eventually get serious, start cheap and work up. There is no need to get a Perrazi or Kreighoff when you are starting out.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Gorilla, does your shotgun have a removable choke?

I don't even have a shotgun yet -- I am working out the acquisition strategy. There is an 18" configuration of Remington 870 that accepts Rem chokes (and comes with a breaching choke)... Another option is a Mossberg 500 combo with security 20" / field 26" barrels..

The 500 combo is what I was talking about. Make sure your field barrel has chokes and go from there. Great starter, hunting and home defense set up.

I have a very early Rem. 1100 that I put a 21" barrel on. It has screw in chokes. I hunted it last year along with my 11-87 and Beretta O/U. I had more fun with it. The short barrel swings really fast but makes it more challenging to hit anything. I shot it with a light full choke to make up for the short barrel.

Get the 500 combo and go to the local skeet/trap field and shoot. You might also consider looking at the local fields for days the club groups shoot. Lots of people to talk with and answer questions.

fishdude wrote:

I have an Anschutz and a CZ 452 and shoot silhouette with both. Never shot a Kimber, but they are well known shooters.

What do you want to do with it? You might also look at the Weatherby MkXXII. They don't make them anymore, but they are an Anschutz 64 barreled action in a Weatherby stock.

My recently completed low budget accurizing project on a stainless 10/22 got me thinking about the old .22 Remington target (with adjustable peep sights) I used for training and competition as a young kid. I know the Germans dominate the modern competitive target rifle market, but I don't see me ever having the time or competitive skill to justify such an expensive purchase. Also, since those old, heavy American made target rifles of my youth seem to be increasingly difficult to find in good condition, I was thinking about setting one aside for my kids to use when they're older. Nostalgia isn't always the best motivator for a firearm purchase, but that's what has me interested in the Kimber.

fishdude wrote:

The 500 combo is what I was talking about. Make sure your field barrel has chokes and go from there. Great starter, hunting and home defense set up.

I have a very early Rem. 1100 that I put a 21" barrel on. It has screw in chokes. I hunted it last year along with my 11-87 and Beretta O/U. I had more fun with it. The short barrel swings really fast but makes it more challenging to hit anything. I shot it with a light full choke to make up for the short barrel.

Get the 500 combo and go to the local skeet/trap field and shoot. You might also consider looking at the local fields for days the club groups shoot. Lots of people to talk with and answer questions.

Mossberg 500 combo is a sound option, but if security is it's secondary purpose, I'd make sure to buy the version with the 28" field and 18.5" cylinder bore. Several versions of the 500 include rifled barrels for deer hunting slug rounds that may undermine the effectiveness of buckshot and other defensive ammo.

I would recommend a Wingmaster. It comes with the right barrel/choke combination and it doesn't look at all like an evil black assault gun. That way, if you actually ever have to shoot someone with it, you won't be prejudged as a gun nut psychopath.

I have seen several Mossberg M44 at gun shows lately. I have only seen one with a magazine and it was tough to pass. You still see some Remington 513 and 514 out there, but never with sights. Not a problem, sights are available from several sources. Winchester 52 and Remington 40x are still the benchmark of American target rifles. Look around, there are still quite a few Anschutz or Savage/Anschutz 64 guns out there. They can be had for good prices.

As usual, Paleo is right on the mark. The Mossy 500 is a good gun, but it pales in comparison to the quality of the Wingmaster. You will pay more for the Remington, but it is worth every penny. I like the idea of no "black" gun as well. If you get the Wingmaster, you still have the option of the 18" cylinder bore barrel for defense. If you plan to hunt, I lean at a 26" barrel. If you only want it as a trap/skeet gun, look for the 28-30" barrel. The shorter barrel swings better when hunting, but makes it a bit tougher for the really long shots in trap.

fishdude wrote:

I have seen several Mossberg M44 at gun shows lately. I have only seen one with a magazine and it was tough to pass. You still see some Remington 513 and 514 out there, but never with sights. Not a problem, sights are available from several sources. Winchester 52 and Remington 40x are still the benchmark of American target rifles. Look around, there are still quite a few Anschutz or Savage/Anschutz 64 guns out there. They can be had for good prices.

As usual, Paleo is right on the mark. The Mossy 500 is a good gun, but it pales in comparison to the quality of the Wingmaster. You will pay more for the Remington, but it is worth every penny. I like the idea of no "black" gun as well. If you get the Wingmaster, you still have the option of the 18" cylinder bore barrel for defense. If you plan to hunt, I lean at a 26" barrel. If you only want it as a trap/skeet gun, look for the 28-30" barrel. The shorter barrel swings better when hunting, but makes it a bit tougher for the really long shots in trap.

Is there an option for a light mount on a Wingmaster? That would be something I would want on a HD gun, but other than that it sounds like a good option.

The true form of a Wingmaster does not have a provision for a light mount. If you drop back to the 870 Express or don't mind making changes to the Wingmaster there are plenty of options. The Wingmaster is the top end model of the 870. Nice wood and such. It takes the same parts as a regular 870. If you intend to make changes like that, then I would tell you to get the express with the plastic stock. You can find options to add a light that are easily removable to go back to stock looks for hunting or trap and skeet.

Secret Asian Man wrote:
fishdude wrote:

I have seen several Mossberg M44 at gun shows lately. I have only seen one with a magazine and it was tough to pass. You still see some Remington 513 and 514 out there, but never with sights. Not a problem, sights are available from several sources. Winchester 52 and Remington 40x are still the benchmark of American target rifles. Look around, there are still quite a few Anschutz or Savage/Anschutz 64 guns out there. They can be had for good prices.

As usual, Paleo is right on the mark. The Mossy 500 is a good gun, but it pales in comparison to the quality of the Wingmaster. You will pay more for the Remington, but it is worth every penny. I like the idea of no "black" gun as well. If you get the Wingmaster, you still have the option of the 18" cylinder bore barrel for defense. If you plan to hunt, I lean at a 26" barrel. If you only want it as a trap/skeet gun, look for the 28-30" barrel. The shorter barrel swings better when hunting, but makes it a bit tougher for the really long shots in trap.

Is there an option for a light mount on a Wingmaster? That would be something I would want on a HD gun, but other than that it sounds like a good option.

There are fore-end replacements for the 870 that integrate a tactical light and full set of controls at your finger tips. The black polymer exterior certainly won't match the Wingmaster's beautiful wood fore-end, but it'll get the job done. Take a look at EOTech's product line for details.

Holy crap after searching for powder to load 300 Blackout for days finally got some from Powder Valley. I have been checking the website religiously for days along with other overpriced sites everyone is out of everything. What pissed me off the most was seeing a auction for one pound of the powder I need for, are you ready for this, $100. A freaking pound!! It costs $18!! Plus the buyer has to pay shipping and hazmat fee.

ragin_redneck wrote:

Holy crap after searching for powder to load 300 Blackout for days finally got some from Powder Valley. I have been checking the website religiously for days along with other overpriced sites everyone is out of everything. What pissed me off the most was seeing a auction for one pound of the powder I need for, are you ready for this, $100. A freaking pound!! It costs $18!! Plus the buyer has to pay shipping and hazmat fee.

How is the 300 Blackout? I was researching it just before I got laid off; when I get another job I will look into it again. Maybe by then parts will be available to build an upper.

I just built the upper so I'll have to let you know. I ordered the parts from SOTA arms the first week January and received the parts 2 weeks ago. I should have been looking for the reloading components when I ordered the upper but I wanted wait and see if I was gonna actually get it. I won't receive my powder order till the end of March. By that time I should be able to get to the range and run it.

My quest for the most appropriate .308 continues.

Paleocon wrote:

My quest for the most appropriate .308 continues.

When you find it, let me know.

Personally, I keep coming back to either a national match M1A tack driver or maybe even a thoroughly rebuilt M1 Garand.

ringsnort wrote:

maybe even a thoroughly rebuilt M1 Garand.

Talk in our house has turned in this direction.

Blackout is awesome. I am going to sell my .223 and only shoot 300bk. Prettyclose ballistically to 7.62x39, but it suppresses better. I shoot three different loads. 115 ballistic tip for hunting. 147 ball for plunking. 205 Amado suppressed for hunting. I have an AR dedicated to 300 and a barrel for my T/C as well. I have 2-300 pieces of 300 brass and about 2000 pieces of 223 brass to convert. Before all of the craziness, you could find 115 ball for 10.50/box.

ringsnort wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

My quest for the most appropriate .308 continues.

When you find it, let me know.

Personally, I keep coming back to either a national match M1A tack driver or maybe even a thoroughly rebuilt M1 Garand.

Been looking at the m1a scout. Eyes aren't good enough for the nm.

Other possibilities are stg58 and bolty.

You should look at the Savage bolt guns. They shoot insane out of the box. I have 2 in 223 and they both shoot 1/2moa with handloads. I am building one in 300wm to shoot suppressed F-class at 600 and 1000 yards.

I looked at the 10fp but around here they cost as much as the 700 in similar configuration. I figure if it is six one, i might as well go with the one my master armorer buddy prefers to work on.

In any event, the optimal configuration would have to take into account the following factors:

1) 7.62 NATO to accomodate my access to ammunition.
2) accurate to at most 1 MOA out to 500m.
3) maneuverable enough to be carried on a stalk (ie: no 12lb, 24+" barrel, 40x benchrest guns).
4) take optics well
5) be of a relatively standard military configuration such that it can be worked on by my master armorer.
6) be as light on proprietary nonsense as possible (ie: probably no AR10's because of the mammoth pissing matches every manufacturer has over magazines, bits and pieces).

So no dumbass AK's chambered for .308. No DPMS Panthers. No brass crimping HK's.

Mostly, the discussion is down to some flavor of FN-FAL (STG58 short barrel or Imbel), some flavor of M1A (scout or SOCOM), or some flavor of bolty (700 LTR or SPS Tac).

fishdude wrote:

Blackout is awesome. I am going to sell my .223 and only shoot 300bk. Prettyclose ballistically to 7.62x39, but it suppresses better. I shoot three different loads. 115 ballistic tip for hunting. 147 ball for plunking. 205 Amado suppressed for hunting. I have an AR dedicated to 300 and a barrel for my T/C as well. I have 2-300 pieces of 300 brass and about 2000 pieces of 223 brass to convert. Before all of the craziness, you could find 115 ball for 10.50/box.

What is your 147 ball recipe?

I went looking for ammo during lunch.

525 rounds of match grade Fiocchi .22lr for $155
25 rounds of 9mm 115 gr FMJ for $34
25 rounds of 9mm 124 gr JHP (Saber Gold Dot) for $54

f*ck that.

Yeah. Ammo is beyond silly right now.

I found it at a bait and tackle shop in the middle of wine country by my office. Not exactly the right location and demographic.

Edwin, I'm surprised you even found any. I haven't seen any 9mm or 22lr at all in any brick and mortar store since January.

I saw some Tula steel-case 9mm online today at $15 per 50 round box. It was sold out in 2 minutes.

EDIT: If you're not already using it... Gunbot!

MyBrainHz wrote:

EDIT: If you're not already using it... Gunbot!

Good site, but man it's depressing. I think I'm done shooting for a while unless I can get with my buddy and use his reloading press.

Paleocon wrote:

I looked at the 10fp but around here they cost as much as the 700 in similar configuration. I figure if it is six one, i might as well go with the one my master armorer buddy prefers to work on.

In any event, the optimal configuration would have to take into account the following factors:

1) 7.62 NATO to accomodate my access to ammunition.
2) accurate to at most 1 MOA out to 500m.
3) maneuverable enough to be carried on a stalk (ie: no 12lb, 24+" barrel, 40x benchrest guns).
4) take optics well
5) be of a relatively standard military configuration such that it can be worked on by my master armorer.
6) be as light on proprietary nonsense as possible (ie: probably no AR10's because of the mammoth pissing matches every manufacturer has over magazines, bits and pieces).

So no dumbass AK's chambered for .308. No DPMS Panthers. No brass crimping HK's.

Mostly, the discussion is down to some flavor of FN-FAL (STG58 short barrel or Imbel), some flavor of M1A (scout or SOCOM), or some flavor of bolty (700 LTR or SPS Tac).

It may or may not turn out to be your optimal .308, but I firmly believe a 700 is in your future. Between great accuracy out of the box with a proven and time tested platform *and* the fact you have access to what sounds like a top flight armorer who specializes in 700 bolty accurization? Plus you also seem to like the 700 a great deal. I'm telling you, the stars are not going to get more aligned than that. Call it destiny. Call it kismitt. Whatever. At this point, why not do it? Let your armorer work his magic and enjoy the experience. And, if it's not for you, selling shouldn't be a problem either. All I ask is photos if and when it's all done.

ringsnort wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I looked at the 10fp but around here they cost as much as the 700 in similar configuration. I figure if it is six one, i might as well go with the one my master armorer buddy prefers to work on.

In any event, the optimal configuration would have to take into account the following factors:

1) 7.62 NATO to accomodate my access to ammunition.
2) accurate to at most 1 MOA out to 500m.
3) maneuverable enough to be carried on a stalk (ie: no 12lb, 24+" barrel, 40x benchrest guns).
4) take optics well
5) be of a relatively standard military configuration such that it can be worked on by my master armorer.
6) be as light on proprietary nonsense as possible (ie: probably no AR10's because of the mammoth pissing matches every manufacturer has over magazines, bits and pieces).

So no dumbass AK's chambered for .308. No DPMS Panthers. No brass crimping HK's.

Mostly, the discussion is down to some flavor of FN-FAL (STG58 short barrel or Imbel), some flavor of M1A (scout or SOCOM), or some flavor of bolty (700 LTR or SPS Tac).

It may or may not turn out to be your optimal .308, but I firmly believe a 700 is in your future. Between great accuracy out of the box with a proven and time tested platform *and* the fact you have access to what sounds like a top flight armorer who specializes in 700 bolty accurization? Plus you also seem to like the 700 a great deal. I'm telling you, the stars are not going to get more aligned than that. Call it destiny. Call it kismitt. Whatever. At this point, why not do it? Let your armorer work his magic and enjoy the experience. And, if it's not for you, selling shouldn't be a problem either. All I ask is photos if and when it's all done.

The dude used to make M40's for Quantico marines and now does the same for federal law enforcement. If I don't use him as a resource, shame on me.

He is a master armorer on all kinds of stuff though including the M14. He has an M21 he built for personal consumption that he has grown bored with and wanted to know if I wanted to buy it off him. That is a bit too rich for my blood though and far more rifle than I will ever use. He's selling it with the glass and the authentic Leatherwood on it doesn't match my style of shooting and it is $1000 by itself.

I think the toughest part with going the 700 route is knowing where to stop. And for that you really need to have a roadmap. If you don't define from the start what success looks like, you'll wake up in 18 months with a frankengun and a bunch of spare parts that just cost you $4000.

ragin_redneck wrote:
fishdude wrote:

Blackout is awesome. I am going to sell my .223 and only shoot 300bk. Prettyclose ballistically to 7.62x39, but it suppresses better. I shoot three different loads. 115 ballistic tip for hunting. 147 ball for plunking. 205 Amado suppressed for hunting. I have an AR dedicated to 300 and a barrel for my T/C as well. I have 2-300 pieces of 300 brass and about 2000 pieces of 223 brass to convert. Before all of the craziness, you could find 115 ball for 10.50/box.

What is your 147 ball recipe?

I currently shoot 17.5 grains of H110 for my 16" AR and get 2000-2050fps. Using the same load from my 16" T/C it will hover about 2100. I have experimented with as low as 15 grains. I was looking for a reliable plinker that didn't burn a ton of powder.