Come fellow firearm owners, we must chat.

NakedHavoc wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
NakedHavoc wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

I figure a heavy stock will probably be better from the standpoint of recoil reduction and benchrest duty, but the gravel pit commando in me wants a gun that I can also rely on for bugout duty. I know I am asking a lot, but I am starting to coalesce around the idea of a 20" heavy contour (or fluted) barrel, aluminum bedded, free floated, short action bolty in .308 with a 1/12 twist (for projectiles as heavy as 170gr). In "sniper" parlance, I think the term is a "scout rifle".

It offers me greater flexibility and, quite honestly, I doubt I will have either the talent or opportunity to take a shot outside of 800m anyway. The longest range around here that isn't closed to all but law enforcement clocks in at just under 600. As a result, it would probably be wiser for me to concentrate on shots well under the transonic distance (~800m). My understanding is that the 168gr boattail is purpose built for 300m benchrest competition anyway and is plenty accurate to twice that distance, but going much beyond that probably calls for a heavier projectile (and thus a different twist rate).

In any event, if the feces hits the fan, taking shots beyond 300m is probably contraindicated anyway since doing so will likely just bring unwanted attention to yourself.

Short thoughts, as I am time-crunched, sorry:

You should be supersonic past 1k, both yards and meters, with a 20" bbl.

I love bolt guns. If the feces hit the fan, a bolt gun would not be my first choice.

"Distance favors the marksman." If you're engaging someone with a rifle, presumably it's for a reason. If you can make the shot at 500, it's a hell of a lot better to do so than at 50. Breaking or avoiding contact to open the distance is worth considering in all cases, but if the target needs to go down, it needs to go down.

Thanks. I misread my DOP chart and upon further inspection see that you are right. That said, 168 is still optimized for 300m competition. It should, however, have plenty of accuracy out to 1k to hit a man sized target.

I am looking at bolties right now because I am fairly confident I have the other bases covered. My Mossy 590 covers my pump gun. My AR15 covers my 5.56 battle rifle. And my USP .45 covers my sidearm. And my silenced Mk2 and 10/22 fill in for color. I suppose my AR is also plenty accurate out to well over 300m, but shooting something only 62gr may be comfortable, but it isn't terribly comforting. I toyed with the idea of something more like a 7.62 battle rifle like an FN, but the bolty just seemed to make more sense at this juncture.

I agree that 500 is better than 50 for a bolty, but somewhere between the two is better than either unless you are much better at reliably reading wind than I am. In any event, at 50, the AR seems to be the 7-iron choice when compared to the bolty which is clearly the driver.

It's totally legit to buy more guns. This is America! I've no issue at all with the desire to buy more guns! I misunderstood and thought you were looking to a 308 20" heavy bbl bolt gun as a SHTF rifle. To me, SHTF is one gun, not three long guns - pistol comes along as secondary, you're damn right. If you are leaving the house knowing not only 1) that you are going to get in a gunfight but also 2) the parameters of the gunfight, then FFS don't leave the house!

That said, I think a 20-22" bbl 308 is a lot of fun. Great handling even suppressed. Remington used to make a 20" heavy/fluted bbl 308 they sold in an HS Precision stock, Al bedding block. The 700 LTR. (Light tac rifle) Like a cut-down 700P, kinda. I owned one. Fun as hell. If you can track one down, it sounds just like the rifle you're looking for. I've no idea when they stopped making them.

Look to the 175 instead of the 168 (assuming you are talking SMK) or the Lapua Scenar 155. I had just started to play with the 155's when I stopped shooting/competing in the PR arena. Pretty impressive stuff.

175 is about the heaviest I would feel comfortable going with a 1:12. With a 1:10, I wouldn't go much beyond 168. In either case, I think the barrel dictates the ammo I will be able to use and right now, I am pretty much hunting for the deal.

I noticed that X-Werks R700 SPS Tacticals (Cericoated w/ 20" AAC threaded bbls) are going for a little over $700 on Gunbroker NIB. They have the pillar bedded Hogue stock (not my favorite), but all other things being equal, that is pretty damned close to where I want to be. I figure that stock is worlds better than the one on the SPS-V. It might be good enough to live with and if it isn't, it still has nominal resale value in the event I want to upgrade. In any event, any step above that should be a big enough one that it should be the last stock for that gun.

And yes, hunker in place until it is no longer practical.

A couple of questions for the Ruger 10/22 owners. I'm considering adding a low power scope with a wide field of view but would also like the option of using iron sights when appropriate. Are there any good co-witnessing options for the Ruger? Or would it be better to add a weaver rail to the top of the receiver and use a detachable scope mount? Budget for this project is around $500. Thanks in advance for the assistance!

ringsnort wrote:

A couple of questions for the Ruger 10/22 owners. I'm considering adding a low power scope with a wide field of view but would also like the option of using iron sights when appropriate. Are there any good co-witnessing options for the Ruger? Or would it be better to add a weaver rail to the top of the receiver and use a detachable scope mount? Budget for this project is around $500. Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Hmm. Sorry. I am no help. I went with the AI threaded barrel so I could fit mine with a suppressor so I have no iron.

My original idea was to simply add a Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire scope to a stainless/black synthetic 10/22. I suspect I'll want a lighter trigger, too, eventually.

The Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire is "parallax adjusted for 60 yards." Then next step up in cost and performance is the Leupold VX-2 3-9x33mm which features variable parallax adjustment but that seems a waste given the typically sub-100 yard shooting ranges involved.

Maybe the best plan is to just keep things simple.

Those steel lock see-through rings could work. Adds a bit to the scope height but that's expected. I need to check these out.

My only concern on the see through weaver rail is that it might limit field of view more than I'd like. Thanks for the suggestions. This really helps.

Paleocon wrote:
ringsnort wrote:

A couple of questions for the Ruger 10/22 owners. I'm considering adding a low power scope with a wide field of view but would also like the option of using iron sights when appropriate. Are there any good co-witnessing options for the Ruger? Or would it be better to add a weaver rail to the top of the receiver and use a detachable scope mount? Budget for this project is around $500. Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Hmm. Sorry. I am no help. I went with the AI threaded barrel so I could fit mine with a suppressor so I have no iron.

Paleocon where do you live? Here in Texas it takes quite abit of work to own a suppressor.

Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
ringsnort wrote:

A couple of questions for the Ruger 10/22 owners. I'm considering adding a low power scope with a wide field of view but would also like the option of using iron sights when appropriate. Are there any good co-witnessing options for the Ruger? Or would it be better to add a weaver rail to the top of the receiver and use a detachable scope mount? Budget for this project is around $500. Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Hmm. Sorry. I am no help. I went with the AI threaded barrel so I could fit mine with a suppressor so I have no iron.

Paleocon where do you live? Here in Texas it takes quite abit of work to own a suppressor.

I live in Maryland. And yes, it takes more than just the normal hassle to get a suppressor, but the process is not all that onerous as long as you follow it. I'm even told that the second or third time you go through it is considerably easier.

Whenever I win the multistate lotto, I plan on getting a scad of Class 3 firearms and suppressors. Nothing sounds as fun as a fully suppressed automatic.

I'm so confused now.

I went to my favorite gun shop yesterday (a messy little shop in Burtonsville where the owner smokes and the friendly shop pit bull greets you at the door) to take a look at the Savage FCP-K because it looks the best on paper for the buck. It was certainly sweet, but the price tag on it even after the buddy buddy discount was still going to be in the $875 range. I saw that I could probably get it off Buds for about $775, but after shipping and transfer, we were right back up to the same price just with more hassle. Plus, I like my buddy and think supporting a local gun shop is an important part of being a responsible gun owner.

Anyway, he suggested that for $75 more, he could get me a deal on a Remington 700 Light Tactical Rifle. I expressed surprise because I thought Remington was no longer selling them to non law enforcement or military. He winked and said "not to just anybody they don't".

So he put one in my hand and WOW is that a sweet trigger. It broke like an icicle at what couldn't be more than 2.5 pounds. The lack of a silly trigger safety like the Savage Accutrigger was kind of nice too. The stock is some kind of Remington OEM kevlar composite stock. I suspect it is pillar bedded, but the material seemed plenty stiff to resist contact with the barrel even under duress. And the barrel was a very sweet heavy contour fluted at 20" that just screamed business.

decisions.
He also showed me the bigger brother of it (the 700 PSS), but said that most folks prefer the LTR because the shorter barrel length allows them to move around better. And unless you are routinely needing to make shots at 1000M, the 20" barrel is plenty capable of delivering outstanding accuracy.

Paleocon wrote:

I thought Remington was no longer selling them to non law enforcement or military. He winked and said "not to just anybody they don't".

Is that legal?

1Dgaf wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I thought Remington was no longer selling them to non law enforcement or military. He winked and said "not to just anybody they don't".

Is that legal?

There is nothing illegal about the rifle. It is just that the manufacturer (in this case Remington) is trying to create exclusivity by only selling to law enforcement. Much like the LWRC Patrolman's Carbine.

There are a couple things that make the LTR particularly nice for shooting an LE course, but nothing that would make it unlawful.

Yeah, typically when they do those police/military only models most of the stuff they do to the rifle to set it up that way is just a bunch of things you can order the parts for yourself aftermarket and some more things you could have a gunsmith do for you.

Generally, there's no such thing as a bolt action rifle that's legal for police that isn't legal for a regular civilian.

I was mightily impressed with the gun despite my general bias against Remington (call me a bloody non-conformist, but I tend to see and weight the technical differences as of greater importance than the Remington advantage of wider rates of adoption).

The PSS had a pretty fat palm swell that made finding a good grip position slightly problematic. I don't have terribly small hands, but I felt like the swell was a little excessive. Moreover, it was wider than one would expect so it wasn't immediately obvious tactilely which direction was precisely forward. The LTR, though it has a very similar stock, did not have the same palm swell thus reducing that issue tremendously.

The target crown on both barrels was identical and appeared pretty unremarkable. They were both just shallow cones and didn't appear to be parabolic. I know that is a nitpick but you generally expect that sort of thing in a gun in the $1000 range. I don't know if that makes a huge or any difference though. I suspect there are a lot of folks that shoot pretty well with it, so I won't bitch about it. I am considering going with a muzzle brake anyway, so that will obviate the significance of the target crown. I will consult my master armorer before going in that direction though. I have no idea how such a thing would affect accuracy. One other WTSHTF consideration is that a muzzle brake would make maintaining a concealed position incrementally more difficult. That is already an issue when using a Remington 700 since they tend to fling brass because of the way their ejectors are set up.

Considerations.

ringsnort wrote:

My original idea was to simply add a Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire scope to a stainless/black synthetic 10/22. I suspect I'll want a lighter trigger, too, eventually.

The Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire is "parallax adjusted for 60 yards." Then next step up in cost and performance is the Leupold VX-2 3-9x33mm which features variable parallax adjustment but that seems a waste given the typically sub-100 yard shooting ranges involved.

Maybe the best plan is to just keep things simple.

Bought my SS 10/22 and Leupold scope this weekend. Let the modding begin! w00t!

Any Kahr owners? Looking at picking up one for a CC/Home piece. Mostly looking at the CW and CM lines in 9mm or .40

ringsnort wrote:
ringsnort wrote:

My original idea was to simply add a Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire scope to a stainless/black synthetic 10/22. I suspect I'll want a lighter trigger, too, eventually.

The Leupold VX®-1 2-7x28mm Rimfire is "parallax adjusted for 60 yards." Then next step up in cost and performance is the Leupold VX-2 3-9x33mm which features variable parallax adjustment but that seems a waste given the typically sub-100 yard shooting ranges involved.

Maybe the best plan is to just keep things simple.

Bought my SS 10/22 and Leupold scope this weekend. Let the modding begin! w00t!

I started off with the cheapest 10/22 possible because I knew that after I was done modding it, the only original piece would be the serial number.

First I replaced the barrel with an Accuracy International aluminum fluted cro moly lined threaded barrel. Then I replaced the trigger with a Timney drop in. Then I replaced the recoil buffer with a polymer to quiet it down. After that I got a Hogue Overmold stock. After that was an oversized mag release and high capacity banana magazines. And finally, I added a rail, rings, and scope.

I opted for a 0-4 power because it won't have the range to go out to infinity and beyond anyway. And I am primarily going to be using this for suppressed shooting with my Advanced Armament Pilot silencer, so I can shoot indoors in places that would normally not be used for such things (rats in alleys and/or warehouses).

It's funny, you're going through all this getting settled on a bolty, and I'm about to trade mine in, optics, Larue one piece mount, bi-pod and all.

I just never shoot the damn thing.

Thin_J wrote:

It's funny, you're going through all this getting settled on a bolty, and I'm about to trade mine in, optics, Larue one piece mount, bi-pod and all.

I just never shoot the damn thing.

Describe if you will.

Paleocon wrote:
Thin_J wrote:

It's funny, you're going through all this getting settled on a bolty, and I'm about to trade mine in, optics, Larue one piece mount, bi-pod and all.

I just never shoot the damn thing.

Describe if you will.

It does not fit your wants at all. It's all low end stuff. SPS Tactical still with factory hogue overmold stock on it, scope is one of the Millet models, TRS maybe. I forget. Doesn't matter really, it's chinese glass. Anyway, it's not at all the kind of quality gear you're looking at.

In a rifle rest without my inconsistency hampering it it'll bore the bullseye out at 100 yards, but that's not really an accomplishment for a .308. There's only two longer rifle ranges here, one is 250 yards and the other is 300 meters. The 300 meter is cool but it's only open for club events and those events basically never mesh with my work schedule. I've never gotten to even try the thing beyond 100 yards.

So basically I have a rifle I never get to shoot.

It sits unused in the safe. I have to move it or reach around it to get to other things in there every time I go to the range.

I had lofty ideas when I originally bought the thing. Plans for a new stock, nice optics, etc. Then when I very quickly discovered that my already cheap gear was more capable equipment than I am a shooter it seemed silly to keep going. Especially given the relative difficulty in finding a place to shoot the thing anyway.

Thin_J wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Thin_J wrote:

It's funny, you're going through all this getting settled on a bolty, and I'm about to trade mine in, optics, Larue one piece mount, bi-pod and all.

I just never shoot the damn thing.

Describe if you will.

It does not fit your wants at all. It's all low end stuff. SPS Tactical still with factory hogue overmold stock on it, scope is one of the Millet models, TRS maybe. I forget. Doesn't matter really, it's chinese glass. Anyway, it's not at all the kind of quality gear you're looking at.

In a rifle rest without my inconsistency hampering it it'll bore the bullseye out at 100 yards, but that's not really an accomplishment for a .308. There's only two longer rifle ranges here, one is 250 yards and the other is 300 meters. The 300 meter is cool but it's only open for club events and those events basically never mesh with my work schedule. I've never gotten to even try the thing beyond 100 yards.

So basically I have a rifle I never get to shoot.

It sits unused in the safe. I have to move it or reach around it to get to other things in there every time I go to the range.

I had lofty ideas when I originally bought the thing. Plans for a new stock, nice optics, etc. Then when I very quickly discovered that my already cheap gear was more capable equipment than I am a shooter it seemed silly to keep going. Especially given the relative difficulty in finding a place to shoot the thing anyway.

Funny, the TRS-1 was sort of where I was headed to start and I considered the SPS-T for a while until I realized that, for a few bucks more, I could get the better stock, barrel, and trigger in the LTR.

How much do you want for it?

Paleocon wrote:

Funny, the TRS-1 was sort of where I was headed to start and I considered the SPS-T for a while until I realized that, for a few bucks more, I could get the better stock, barrel, and trigger in the LTR.

How much do you want for it?

The only thing I've looked into used prices on is the rifle itself, which seems to go in the 450-500 range in good condition. I expect the dealer to go 400 tops if I do a trade in with just the gun.

The thing I haven't figured out yet is whether I'll get the best value selling it all together or parting it out.

Can post a picture or two or three of it if you're really interested.

Thin_J wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Funny, the TRS-1 was sort of where I was headed to start and I considered the SPS-T for a while until I realized that, for a few bucks more, I could get the better stock, barrel, and trigger in the LTR.

How much do you want for it?

The only thing I've looked into used prices on is the rifle itself, which seems to go in the 450-500 range in good condition. I expect the dealer to go 400 tops if I do a trade in with just the gun.

The thing I haven't figured out yet is whether I'll get the best value selling it all together or parting it out.

Can post a picture or two or three of it if you're really interested.

I got similar advice on the optics from my buddy who buys and sells lots of guns. He said that a bolty really much be sold with the optics otherwise most folks just skip past the posting. It's stupid, but there it is. Most folks will usually just take off the optics and toss it in a drawer if it isn't Leupold or above.

Worse is that you will only ever get half the value of the glass even if it is premium stuff like Leupold or S&B. For cheaper stuff like Bushnell Elite, Millett, or Nikon Monarch, you are lucky to get $100 or so despite having paid three times that. I went through exactly the same agonizing when considering whether or not to sell my Winchester 70.

Definitely post pics. What are you looking to trade for?

Paleocon wrote:

Definitely post pics. What are you looking to trade for?

I'm looking into another handgun. Still pretty sweet on the idea of a Walther PPQ9. Past that I have trouble thinking of things I want that wouldn't just be safe queens.

The more range time I put in and the more shooting I do the more I realize I prefer handguns in general though.

I get you. Part of my impulse to purge my safe of the muzzie and hunting rifle has to do with the honest assessment that I am neither a period enthusiast nor a hunter. And though a long range rifle might get less time than a pistol, it is still likely to vet infinitely more than either of the others

MaverickDago wrote:

Any Kahr owners? Looking at picking up one for a CC/Home piece. Mostly looking at the CW and CM lines in 9mm or .40

I'm a PM 40 owner. It's a compact pistol and it shoots bullets.

I have about 500 rounds through mine and no malfunctions. I've had two friends have it fail to cycle correctly and not chamber the next round. Neither had shot very many pistols and were most likely limp wristing it a bit. The .40 is a pretty good punch for such a light pistol. If you like the Glock, you'll be comfortable with the Kahr.

Quinton mentioned earlier that he owned a Kahr, but did not like it, so he may be able to provide you with some cons.

As far as cc/hd goes, there's been some great points made concerning the reliability of a wheel gun over an auto.

Paleocon wrote:

I get you. Part of my impulse to purge my safe of the muzzie and hunting rifle has to do with the honest assessment that I am neither a period enthusiast nor a hunter. And though a long range rifle might get less time than a pistol, it is still likely to vet infinitely more than either of the others

I guess what I learned from the 700 is that I'm not much of a benchrest fan :p

When I want to play at ranges farther than a handgun is good for I've got my AR15. That's all I really need.

Low end stuff you say ThinJ?
TN is only a days drive away...

boogle wrote:

Low end stuff you say ThinJ?
TN is only a days drive away...

I think I'm missing something here.

Thin_J wrote:
boogle wrote:

Low end stuff you say ThinJ?
TN is only a days drive away...

I think I'm missing something here.

Low end things put it in the boogle price range.

Define "boogle price range".

Also, Paleo has first dibs.