Come fellow firearm owners, we must chat.

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

My preference for a 700, if you want it ;), is to properly bed it into the McMillan stock of your choice. I like the A5. Nothing wrong with the tried-and-true HTG though.

Given the (lack of precision) tolerances on a factory 700 action, bolting it into a set of v-blocks will often distort it. This is not desirable in a precision rifle. In my opinion. Yes you can skim-bed the AICS to correct this issue but do you want to? And some AICS/700 combo's with seriously distorted receivers shoot like a house on fire. You might never have an issue.

I have found the best returns in the PR arena come with minimizing variables - every one that you can. There are plenty left that you can't touch.

Oh, and LMAO at the '06! Yes, it can be a handful in a lightweight config!

NakedHavoc wrote:

My preference for a 700, if you want it ;), is to properly bed it into the McMillan stock of your choice. I like the A5. Nothing wrong with the tried-and-true HTG though.

Given the (lack of precision) tolerances on a factory 700 action, bolting it into a set of v-blocks will often distort it. This is not desirable in a precision rifle. In my opinion. Yes you can skim-bed the AICS to correct this issue but do you want to? And some AICS/700 combo's with seriously distorted receivers shoot like a house on fire. You might never have an issue.

I have found the best returns in the PR arena come with minimizing variables - every one that you can. There are plenty left that you can't touch.

Oh, and LMAO at the '06! Yes, it can be a handful in a lightweight config!

Don't get me wrong. I very much respect my W70 '06, but it is a rifle for carrying three days in the wilderness to take that one shot, not for putting 1000 rounds through on a qual course. First off, it wouldn't be allowed on a qual course. Second, you'd beat the everloving snailsnot out of yourself with it.

I have hears about the qual control/tolerance issues with the 700 and the more I find out about the 700, the more the Savage and Winchesters look more attractive in contrast. I'm starting to think that the reason there are so many Remington master armorers out there is because there need to be so many out there.

The whole AI discussion came up because I mentioned that I wanted to go with the SPS-V, but thought the tupperware stock was crap. He suggested cranking the hell out of pillars so the barrel floats on its own until I could save up enough for a McMillan stock. He isn't a huge fan of the H&S Precision and says if you're going to upgrade, do it once. I mentioned that even going with the McMillan would likely mean I would have to replace the bottom metal anyway (or, as you mention, bed the action). After I did the math, it didn't seem like a huge step then to go with the AI.

On a different note, the SPS-V comes with a 26" heavy contour barrel in a 1:12, which will necessarily behave a lot differently than the 20" on the SPS-Tactical. Would you suggest going with heavier loads? Slower powder? My buddy who shot a ton of 6.5x06 Wildcat in a 26" swore by the slowest powder he could find.

Bolt is so much nicer on the savage makes its a pleasure to shoot in comparison to the 700.
My 700 likes stick and jam and I've had lots of ejector issues with it.

I'm also a big fan of the blade trigger plus it easy to adjust to a semi light pull.

I like Varget for 308. It is relatively slow and I wouldn't run it in a 20", though I used it almost exclusively down a 22" Rock 5R with great results. I'd definitely try it first.

If that doesn't work out, look at RL15.

175 SMK's, Lapua brass, 210M primers.

Slytin wrote:
bennard wrote:
Slytin wrote:

Anyone have experince with http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/CZ_75_SP01_Shadow/?
I'm thinking of getting one for doing some IPSC style shooting. Looks like I can get one for 880 is cheapest Ive found it.

Are you planning on competing seriously, or just going out and having fun? If you're really interested in getting into IPSC, I'd say just go ahead and get a Glock 34 (for Production) or a Glock 35 (for Limited).

I'm interested in fun with possibility to competing. I'm fan of CZ quality and I dug up this list of IPSC shooters guns.
1 Vogel, Robert USA Glock 17
2 Stoeger, Ben USA Beretta 92FS
3 Mink, Matthew USA CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
4 De Cobos, Eduardo ESP Sig Sauer P226 X-Five Allround
5 Lejano, Jeufro Emil PHI CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
6 Manni, Matti FIN Tanfoglio Stock II
7 VYSNY, MARIAN SVK CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
8 Momcilovic, Ljubisa SER CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
9 PICHUGIN, ALEXEY RUS CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
10 APLETAL, MIROSLAV CZE CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
11 Gyllenberg, Rasmus SWE Y CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
12 Vinduska, Vaclav CZE Grand Power K100
13 Moreira, Galo ECU CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
14 HRNCIARIK, ANDREJ J SVK CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
15 Brocanelli, Paolo ITA Tanfoglio Stock II
16 Drolet, Jean Philippe CAN Y CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow
17 Nagy, Ernest SVK Grand Power K100
18 Zuccolo, Giovanni ITA Tanfoglio Stock II
19 Franjo, Nadj CRO HS2000
20 Ibanez, Gorka Walther P99

That's really different from IDPA. I guess it's due to the rules? Click the images for more.

IMAGE(http://www.idpa.com/blog/image.axd?picture=2012%2f10%2fCup12-Guns.png)
IMAGE(http://www.idpa.com/blog/image.axd?picture=2012%2f10%2fCup12-Gun-Platforms.png)

Looking at the list Slytin posted, I looked up the other pistols I didn't recognize. The Tangfolio Stock II is apparently a CZ 71 SP-01 that's made in Italy and imported by EAA in Florida.

The HS2000 is the original Croatian Springfield XD and the K100 is a STI GP6.

So really the list is this:

1x Glock
1x Beretta
1x Sig Sauer
11x CZ 75 SP-01
2x K100/STI GP6
1x HS200/Springfield XD
1x Walther

Not sure why I find this interesting, but I do.

Slytin wrote:

Bolt is so much nicer on the savage makes its a pleasure to shoot in comparison to the 700.
My 700 likes stick and jam and I've had lots of ejector issues with it.

I'm also a big fan of the blade trigger plus it easy to adjust to a semi light pull.

I am hearing that a lot. I am also hearing that the W70 modified Mauser action is a whole lot nicer than the 700 as well. I'm a big fan of my W70 bolt, but as I said, I am looking for a more appropriate system right now.

Maybe I should just wait and save up for a stealth.

Sigh.

Edwin wrote:

Looking at the list Slytin posted, I looked up the other pistols I didn't recognize. The Tangfolio Stock II is apparently a CZ 71 SP-01 that's made in Italy and imported by EAA in Florida.

The HS2000 is the original Croatian Springfield XD and the K100 is a STI GP6.

So really the list is this:

1x Glock
1x Beretta
1x Sig Sauer
11x CZ 75 SP-01
2x K100/STI GP6
1x HS200/Springfield XD
1x Walther

Not sure why I find this interesting, but I do.

Not sure how accurate this is, but interesting read.
http://gunnuts.net/2011/11/29/the-cz-in-idpa/

Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

Bolt is so much nicer on the savage makes its a pleasure to shoot in comparison to the 700.
My 700 likes stick and jam and I've had lots of ejector issues with it.

I'm also a big fan of the blade trigger plus it easy to adjust to a semi light pull.

I am hearing that a lot. I am also hearing that the W70 modified Mauser action is a whole lot nicer than the 700 as well. I'm a big fan of my W70 bolt, but as I said, I am looking for a more appropriate system right now.

Maybe I should just wait and save up for a stealth.

Sigh.

Do you have a place to handle the non custom guns?
We have Cabelas here that lets you handle rifles and play with the actions.
Helps a lot in making a decision, but more likely to throw down money when might be better off waiting for the perfect platform for you.

Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

Bolt is so much nicer on the savage makes its a pleasure to shoot in comparison to the 700.
My 700 likes stick and jam and I've had lots of ejector issues with it.

I'm also a big fan of the blade trigger plus it easy to adjust to a semi light pull.

I am hearing that a lot. I am also hearing that the W70 modified Mauser action is a whole lot nicer than the 700 as well. I'm a big fan of my W70 bolt, but as I said, I am looking for a more appropriate system right now.

Maybe I should just wait and save up for a stealth.

Sigh.

Do you have a place to handle the non custom guns?
We have Cabelas here that lets you handle rifles and play with the actions.
Helps a lot in making a decision, but more likely to throw down money when might be better off waiting for the perfect platform for you.

I have a great relationship with my local gun shop guy. I pissed him off a little when I got my 10/22 from Ass Pro, but he's over it. I get everything from him.

He has stuff like the stealth and 700 in stock on a regular basis.

Looks like im going to be selling my 700 to help fund my pistol

Anyway. I am looking to sell my .30-06 Winchester 70 Featherweight. It is barely used (less than 100 rounds through the barrel), meticulously kept, and very clean. I would send whatever 06 ammo along with the gun. Some of it is heavy game ammo I got from the original owner who went on one trip to Montana to go elk hunting and came up empty.

I have a Nikon Monarch 3-9 mounted on it, but if you don't want the optics, I can take $100 off the gun. It also has a rather nice leather national match sling on it that hasn't even been stretched out yet as well as a standard nylon soft case.

The rifle itself is one of the last Connecticut-made Winchesters (prior to the FN purchase). It shoots straight and is a perfect hunting rifle for everything from whitetail to black bear. '06 is about as versatile a caliber as you can get.

I looked on GunsAmerica and similar guns are going for $1100+. I'll let it go for $1000 with the optics, $900 without.

If you know anyone interested, PM me.

Also for sale is a Thompson Center Renegade 50cal muzzleloader with a beautiful curly birch stock. I have never shot this, but the original owner did a bit. It is still gorgeous. Need the room in the safe and would love to put the cash toward a benchrest bolty. Asking $250.

Anyone here ever buy anything from buds?

You mean, from friends/acquaintances? I haven't, mine have all come from stores, but I did sell my model 29 to a coworker.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

You mean, from friends/acquaintances? I haven't, mine have all come from stores, but I did sell my model 29 to a coworker.

No. I mean from budsgunshop.com. They seem to have decent prices and there is a .308 benchrest gun they have in their used section that might just be what I am looking for.

Paleocon wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

You mean, from friends/acquaintances? I haven't, mine have all come from stores, but I did sell my model 29 to a coworker.

No. I mean from budsgunshop.com. They seem to have decent prices and there is a .308 benchrest gun they have in their used section that might just be what I am looking for.

I have not, but buying from them seems like a crap shoot. Some folks have zero issues, some folks have enough issues to start a second National Archive.

I've bought all but one of my guns through Bud's. So, you know, 8 or 9 now I guess.

AnimeJ wrote:

some folks have enough issues to start a second National Archive.

A largeish number of these people that I've read complaints from start off doing something stupid like noticing something is wrong enough with the firearm to make them unhappy and then accepting the transfer anyway. Then they dump a one star review on Bud's. All they have to do is refuse the transfer. Once the transfer has been accepted the gun is theirs and cannot be sold again as new so they can't get their money back.

Just a trend I've noticed reading through reviews.

Paleocon wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

You mean, from friends/acquaintances? I haven't, mine have all come from stores, but I did sell my model 29 to a coworker.

No. I mean from budsgunshop.com. They seem to have decent prices and there is a .308 benchrest gun they have in their used section that might just be what I am looking for.

Oh, oops. IMAGE(http://rps.net/QS/Images/Smilies/blush.gif)

Thin_J wrote:

I've bought all but one of my guns through Bud's. So, you know, 8 or 9 now I guess.

AnimeJ wrote:

some folks have enough issues to start a second National Archive.

A largeish number of these people that I've read complaints from start off doing something stupid like noticing something is wrong enough with the firearm to make them unhappy and then accepting the transfer anyway. Then they dump a one star review on Bud's. All they have to do is refuse the transfer. Once the transfer has been accepted the gun is theirs and cannot be sold again as new so they can't get their money back.

Just a trend I've noticed reading through reviews.

cool.

I did a little light Gunbroker and Gunsamerica stalking and it looks like my W70 featherweight is selling used for anywhere between $750 and $1100 without optics. Apparently it was one of the nicer ones that USRA ever made. And mine is, like I said, in pristine condition.

Ironically, the new guns I am looking at that would satisfy my need for a tactical/benchrest gun are clocking in new in the $600-$900 range (again without optics). I don't suspect I will make any money on the trade, but I figure if I break even and get the gun I actually want, I think I will be pretty happy.

Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

Thin_J wrote:

I've bought all but one of my guns through Bud's. So, you know, 8 or 9 now I guess.

AnimeJ wrote:

some folks have enough issues to start a second National Archive.

A largeish number of these people that I've read complaints from start off doing something stupid like noticing something is wrong enough with the firearm to make them unhappy and then accepting the transfer anyway. Then they dump a one star review on Bud's. All they have to do is refuse the transfer. Once the transfer has been accepted the gun is theirs and cannot be sold again as new so they can't get their money back.

Just a trend I've noticed reading through reviews.

I meant more stuff like not getting the gun they asked for, or to use your example, refusing the transfer and never getting a refund, or similar things to that. I actually wasn't referring to any starred review out on the web, either, although I have absolutely no doubt that what you're talking about happens regularly.

Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

I figure a heavy stock will probably be better from the standpoint of recoil reduction and benchrest duty, but the gravel pit commando in me wants a gun that I can also rely on for bugout duty. I know I am asking a lot, but I am starting to coalesce around the idea of a 20" heavy contour (or fluted) barrel, aluminum bedded, free floated, short action bolty in .308 with a 1/12 twist (for projectiles as heavy as 170gr). In "sniper" parlance, I think the term is a "scout rifle".

It offers me greater flexibility and, quite honestly, I doubt I will have either the talent or opportunity to take a shot outside of 800m anyway. The longest range around here that isn't closed to all but law enforcement clocks in at just under 600. As a result, it would probably be wiser for me to concentrate on shots well under the transonic distance (~800m). My understanding is that the 168gr boattail is purpose built for 300m benchrest competition anyway and is plenty accurate to twice that distance, but going much beyond that probably calls for a heavier projectile (and thus a different twist rate).

In any event, if the feces hits the fan, taking shots beyond 300m is probably contraindicated anyway since doing so will likely just bring unwanted attention to yourself.

Speaking of which.....

Baltimore Craigslist has...

Edwin wrote:

It's cool and it would offer some defense against a quick smash and grab scenario. There's no way it could hold up under a more thorough search, though. Also, there's zero defense against fire which is arguably the bigger threat.

Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

I figure a heavy stock will probably be better from the standpoint of recoil reduction and benchrest duty, but the gravel pit commando in me wants a gun that I can also rely on for bugout duty. I know I am asking a lot, but I am starting to coalesce around the idea of a 20" heavy contour (or fluted) barrel, aluminum bedded, free floated, short action bolty in .308 with a 1/12 twist (for projectiles as heavy as 170gr). In "sniper" parlance, I think the term is a "scout rifle".

It offers me greater flexibility and, quite honestly, I doubt I will have either the talent or opportunity to take a shot outside of 800m anyway. The longest range around here that isn't closed to all but law enforcement clocks in at just under 600. As a result, it would probably be wiser for me to concentrate on shots well under the transonic distance (~800m). My understanding is that the 168gr boattail is purpose built for 300m benchrest competition anyway and is plenty accurate to twice that distance, but going much beyond that probably calls for a heavier projectile (and thus a different twist rate).

In any event, if the feces hits the fan, taking shots beyond 300m is probably contraindicated anyway since doing so will likely just bring unwanted attention to yourself.

Short thoughts, as I am time-crunched, sorry:

You should be supersonic past 1k, both yards and meters, with a 20" bbl.

I love bolt guns. If the feces hit the fan, a bolt gun would not be my first choice.

"Distance favors the marksman." If you're engaging someone with a rifle, presumably it's for a reason. If you can make the shot at 500, it's a hell of a lot better to do so than at 50. Breaking or avoiding contact to open the distance is worth considering in all cases, but if the target needs to go down, it needs to go down.

NakedHavoc wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

I figure a heavy stock will probably be better from the standpoint of recoil reduction and benchrest duty, but the gravel pit commando in me wants a gun that I can also rely on for bugout duty. I know I am asking a lot, but I am starting to coalesce around the idea of a 20" heavy contour (or fluted) barrel, aluminum bedded, free floated, short action bolty in .308 with a 1/12 twist (for projectiles as heavy as 170gr). In "sniper" parlance, I think the term is a "scout rifle".

It offers me greater flexibility and, quite honestly, I doubt I will have either the talent or opportunity to take a shot outside of 800m anyway. The longest range around here that isn't closed to all but law enforcement clocks in at just under 600. As a result, it would probably be wiser for me to concentrate on shots well under the transonic distance (~800m). My understanding is that the 168gr boattail is purpose built for 300m benchrest competition anyway and is plenty accurate to twice that distance, but going much beyond that probably calls for a heavier projectile (and thus a different twist rate).

In any event, if the feces hits the fan, taking shots beyond 300m is probably contraindicated anyway since doing so will likely just bring unwanted attention to yourself.

Short thoughts, as I am time-crunched, sorry:

You should be supersonic past 1k, both yards and meters, with a 20" bbl.

I love bolt guns. If the feces hit the fan, a bolt gun would not be my first choice.

"Distance favors the marksman." If you're engaging someone with a rifle, presumably it's for a reason. If you can make the shot at 500, it's a hell of a lot better to do so than at 50. Breaking or avoiding contact to open the distance is worth considering in all cases, but if the target needs to go down, it needs to go down.

Thanks. I misread my DOP chart and upon further inspection see that you are right. That said, 168 is still optimized for 300m competition. It should, however, have plenty of accuracy out to 1k to hit a man sized target.

I am looking at bolties right now because I am fairly confident I have the other bases covered. My Mossy 590 covers my pump gun. My AR15 covers my 5.56 battle rifle. And my USP .45 covers my sidearm. And my silenced Mk2 and 10/22 fill in for color. I suppose my AR is also plenty accurate out to well over 300m, but shooting something only 62gr may be comfortable, but it isn't terribly comforting. I toyed with the idea of something more like a 7.62 battle rifle like an FN, but the bolty just seemed to make more sense at this juncture.

I agree that 500 is better than 50 for a bolty, but somewhere between the two is better than either unless you are much better at reliably reading wind than I am. In any event, at 50, the AR seems to be the 7-iron choice when compared to the bolty which is clearly the driver.

Paleocon wrote:
NakedHavoc wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Slytin wrote:

I have a Rem 700 .223 with a Bell Carlson Medalist aluminum stock with trigger job shoots extremely nice.
I also have a Savage .308 that I bought afterwards and I rarely shoot the .223 anymore. In my opinion the Savage is nicer all around, and shoots just as good as the Rem 700 with it's upgrades. I just wish the stock was nicer, but when I get some extra cash I will replace it.

Just out of curiosity, how do you like that B&C Medalist? I hear all kinds of good things about it, but the best I can tell is that the aluminum block only extends to the front of the action. That isn't necessarily an issue if the forend is sufficiently stiff to prevent contact with the barrel, but making it so often means that the stock is additionally heavy. This is one of the reasons why I am considering the full aluminum bedded Hogue over the pillar bedded one.

I like it a lot, but it is extremely heavy. I did see a noticeable improvement in consistency after changing to the stock, but again it is heavy. My 223 has the B&C stock and a standard size diameter barrel, and it weighs quite a bit more than my 308 with bull barrel oem stock.

I figure a heavy stock will probably be better from the standpoint of recoil reduction and benchrest duty, but the gravel pit commando in me wants a gun that I can also rely on for bugout duty. I know I am asking a lot, but I am starting to coalesce around the idea of a 20" heavy contour (or fluted) barrel, aluminum bedded, free floated, short action bolty in .308 with a 1/12 twist (for projectiles as heavy as 170gr). In "sniper" parlance, I think the term is a "scout rifle".

It offers me greater flexibility and, quite honestly, I doubt I will have either the talent or opportunity to take a shot outside of 800m anyway. The longest range around here that isn't closed to all but law enforcement clocks in at just under 600. As a result, it would probably be wiser for me to concentrate on shots well under the transonic distance (~800m). My understanding is that the 168gr boattail is purpose built for 300m benchrest competition anyway and is plenty accurate to twice that distance, but going much beyond that probably calls for a heavier projectile (and thus a different twist rate).

In any event, if the feces hits the fan, taking shots beyond 300m is probably contraindicated anyway since doing so will likely just bring unwanted attention to yourself.

Short thoughts, as I am time-crunched, sorry:

You should be supersonic past 1k, both yards and meters, with a 20" bbl.

I love bolt guns. If the feces hit the fan, a bolt gun would not be my first choice.

"Distance favors the marksman." If you're engaging someone with a rifle, presumably it's for a reason. If you can make the shot at 500, it's a hell of a lot better to do so than at 50. Breaking or avoiding contact to open the distance is worth considering in all cases, but if the target needs to go down, it needs to go down.

Thanks. I misread my DOP chart and upon further inspection see that you are right. That said, 168 is still optimized for 300m competition. It should, however, have plenty of accuracy out to 1k to hit a man sized target.

I am looking at bolties right now because I am fairly confident I have the other bases covered. My Mossy 590 covers my pump gun. My AR15 covers my 5.56 battle rifle. And my USP .45 covers my sidearm. And my silenced Mk2 and 10/22 fill in for color. I suppose my AR is also plenty accurate out to well over 300m, but shooting something only 62gr may be comfortable, but it isn't terribly comforting. I toyed with the idea of something more like a 7.62 battle rifle like an FN, but the bolty just seemed to make more sense at this juncture.

I agree that 500 is better than 50 for a bolty, but somewhere between the two is better than either unless you are much better at reliably reading wind than I am. In any event, at 50, the AR seems to be the 7-iron choice when compared to the bolty which is clearly the driver.

It's totally legit to buy more guns. This is America! I've no issue at all with the desire to buy more guns! I misunderstood and thought you were looking to a 308 20" heavy bbl bolt gun as a SHTF rifle. To me, SHTF is one gun, not three long guns - pistol comes along as secondary, you're damn right. If you are leaving the house knowing not only 1) that you are going to get in a gunfight but also 2) the parameters of the gunfight, then FFS don't leave the house!

That said, I think a 20-22" bbl 308 is a lot of fun. Great handling even suppressed. Remington used to make a 20" heavy/fluted bbl 308 they sold in an HS Precision stock, Al bedding block. The 700 LTR. (Light tac rifle) Like a cut-down 700P, kinda. I owned one. Fun as hell. If you can track one down, it sounds just like the rifle you're looking for. I've no idea when they stopped making them.

Look to the 175 instead of the 168 (assuming you are talking SMK) or the Lapua Scenar 155. I had just started to play with the 155's when I stopped shooting/competing in the PR arena. Pretty impressive stuff.