Soccer Gaming Catch-All

UCRC wrote:
Prederick wrote:

EDIT: Anyway, my most reliable retailer doesn't even seem to have it for PC. And I can't find one that ships to the US.

Meanwhile I've started CL with Inter and I'm coming to conclusion that I hadn't had such fun with soccer game since early days of PES 5, if ever. With Mancini - Ibra - Quaresma attack I don't only score loads of goals, I also look like 2006's Argentina. I've got to upload few replays somewhere to illustrate why it's still better than FIFA ;]

I'd be thrilled to see them. I know, in the demo, I scored one of the best goals i've ever scored in a game, and on a reasonable difficulty level to boot (I gave up on 4* and 5* in PES, the rampant AI-balancing issues ruin it for me). And it wasn't some ludicrous 400 yard screamer, I won the ball in midfield, passed it out to the wing, cut inside my man, had my strikers play a one-two and then played in the winger who got into the attacking third in the first place, who slotted past the keeper.

I really don't think i've ever seen a FIFA game offer a goal quite like that.

Played a handful of random matches of FIFA09 last night. 98% of the people pick ManU. I had read about this and decided to ignore people playing as ManU. I had some fun games playing as ManCity then I made the mistake of playing one of the 9,000,000 people that choose ManU and watched helplessly as Ronaldo and Rooney ran right through my defense. Never again.

Prederick wrote:
UCRC wrote:
Prederick wrote:

EDIT: Anyway, my most reliable retailer doesn't even seem to have it for PC. And I can't find one that ships to the US.

Meanwhile I've started CL with Inter and I'm coming to conclusion that I hadn't had such fun with soccer game since early days of PES 5, if ever. With Mancini - Ibra - Quaresma attack I don't only score loads of goals, I also look like 2006's Argentina. I've got to upload few replays somewhere to illustrate why it's still better than FIFA ;]

I'd be thrilled to see them. I know, in the demo, I scored one of the best goals i've ever scored in a game, and on a reasonable difficulty level to boot (I gave up on 4* and 5* in PES, the rampant AI-balancing issues ruin it for me). And it wasn't some ludicrous 400 yard screamer, I won the ball in midfield, passed it out to the wing, cut inside my man, had my strikers play a one-two and then played in the winger who got into the attacking third in the first place, who slotted past the keeper.

I really don't think i've ever seen a FIFA game offer a goal quite like that.

What can I use for screen captures? GameCam doesn't seem to click for me, Fraps causes slowdowns. I've started ML with Inter and I'm having really good time. I don't feel like playing next-gen title, it doesn't blow me away either, but it is PES-5-solid.

I've been playing some FIFA09 in the 360 after having taken a break for a few iterations of the franchise. Having a lot of fun with it, especially the 10 v 10 multiplayer over Live. I have always had an issue with the computer switching me among the different players (I end up running the wrong direction because I thought I was controlling the midfielder who is tracking back instead of the defender that is rushing forward and to whom the computer just switched me -- argh!). With the selection of one player, it is making it so much more enjoyable for me. Two good teams going head to head makes a 0-0 or 1-0 score a really satisfying experience.

Have yet to try the other modes in any great detail.

I plan on playing tonight. Friend me up if you want.

The game I have played the 2nd or 3rd most behind NHL08 was PES07. I skipped last year to play other games.

I rented FIFA09 from gamefly and really enjoy it. Not sure about the be a pro mode yet. At times I feel that the camera is too far away from the play but the normal mode feels so good. Better animations and gameplay than PES07.

Wow.

AFter having put in some time with FIFA 09, i'm stunned. This is easily the best FIFA game ever made, and if this had been released last year, would've blown PES out of the water. The demo doesn't do it any justice. I'm anxious to see what PES 09 will be like, because EA has really thrown the gauntlet here. A ton of my gripes about the series have been addressed. Play feels much more organic, and the special moves don't seem to be as necessary to beat a man as they've been in other years.

Also, there's a huge, obvious difference in the quality of players and teams now. Try playing Tiki-Taka football with Carlisle United and you'll see what I mean.

I think, seeing this, that EA had been building towards this for years, because there's so much detail, especially now in tactics and in ratings, the latter being a place that (IMHO) PES has failed at for several years running now. I've said it before, and i'll say it again, in this day and age, having one generic "defense" rating try to explain to me what makes Alessandro Nesta good is at best, ridiculous.

I shouldn't be so hard on PES though. It always comes down to some ridiculous "This or This" argument in these kind of stakes. I think footy fans may be spoiled for choice this year, and have two fantastic titles to tool around with. (Not even countering the timesink that is FM).

maxox wrote:

Played a handful of random matches of FIFA09 last night. 98% of the people pick ManU. I had read about this and decided to ignore people playing as ManU. I had some fun games playing as ManCity then I made the mistake of playing one of the 9,000,000 people that choose ManU and watched helplessly as Ronaldo and Rooney ran right through my defense. Never again.

I had the same experience. I really loathe PubTards. I personally would like to see what a AC Ajaccio v. Sheffield United game would look like.

Hey, would anyone be interested in starting GamersWithJobs FC? I almost created one tonight, but I wanted to see about interest first.

AFter having put in some time with FIFA 09, i'm stunned.

Told you so!

It's on par with or even better than PES 2009 in pretty much every aspect. PES used to be the better soccer game, but FIFA always had more options, better usability, atmosphere and, well, the full license. And now EA Canada also got the gameplay right. And PES 2009 still lacks in terms of atmosphere, animations and interface.

Spunior wrote:

And PES 2009 still lacks in terms of atmosphere, animations and interface.

Bolded for emphasis. This was previously the area where PES blew FIFA away, and there are a megaton of glorious, contextual animations in FIFA now. Also, headers are just a joy to watch now. They still seem a tad slow, but still great.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

Like I said UC, i'm stunned. PES 09 drops here soon, so i'll get a chance to compare and contrast.

EA does lose points for 1.) Not allowing total player customization (shove your XP points up your ass, if I want to create a guy who might not be in the game and should start for a team, let me freely) and 2.) The "Adidas Live Season" apparently being handled by chimps. I understand you want to reflect form, but dear heaven, why is Robin van Persie rated better than Cesc Fabregas, Fernando Torres and Sergio Aguero? Seriously?. And for christ's sake, being injured DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAD A BAD GAME. IT'S DIFFERENT.

I had a bad feeling about that feature, because ideally, it requires a light touch, and probably a monthly update. Bi-weekly at most. Swinging players in upwards of 10-points overall based on a game is ridiculous.

Alright, something else I loathe.

FIFA doesn't really have many fouls in the game. Matter of fact, FIFA has few to no fouls, so free-kicks are rare. But the only injuries in the game come from fouls. So there are few injuries.

Since the game has so very, very few injuries (for the same reason most EA games have few injuries, if players lost Leo Messi at the rate that he's gotten injured in real life, there'd be outrage and "AI CHEATING" threads spamming the forums) it tries to model fatigue in a ludicrous way. Players essentially are incapable of resting up between games, meaning you have to chop and change 4-8 members of your squad every game. Which is ludicrous.

PES had this problem last year, although slightly less pronounced (instead you'd have to change every 2-3 games) but still. Can anyone game that isn't FM recognize that players have, in some cases, a full week to recuperate between games and that serious fatigue doesn't start to accumulate until February or so? Cristiano Ronaldo started 46 games last year, Jamie Carragher 51, Fabregas 43. They can play more than one game in a row without being totally gassed.

I've been playing Fifa 09 for the past 2 weeks. I played 08 quite a lot and mostly enjoyed it but I'm not enjoying Fifa 09 as much.

Is it me or is there way more offsides in 09? It might reflect more accurately the number of offsides in a real game, but it just irritates me that my AI controlled players can't keep themselves onside.
My first experience of 10v10 quick team play was a bad one. Everyone was trash talking each other. Everybody would chase the ball. No one would make any passes. I don't think I received a single pass from any of my team mates.
But my biggest problem with the game is the fact that I sometimes don't feel that I'm in control, in particular the passing.
The presentation is slick though, and the online play is pretty smooth.

So for me, it feels like 08 but with the added irritation of incessant offsides.

Prederick wrote:

:D

Like I said UC, i'm stunned. PES 09 drops here soon, so i'll get a chance to compare and contrast.

I'll try to compile my replays, so you could get all jealous

Prederick wrote:

:D

Like I said UC, i'm stunned. PES 09 drops here soon, so i'll get a chance to compare and contrast.

EA does lose points for 1.) Not allowing total player customization (shove your XP points up your ass, if I want to create a guy who might not be in the game and should start for a team, let me freely)

Zenit St. Petersburg? This games tries so hard to delude people with all those numbers (tens of thousands of players, hooray!) and yet fails to deliver cause PES beats it with edit mode.
(btw: I've done WHOLE EPL with actual line-ups, every transfer, Zuiverloon and Nicky Shorey edited in, real badges and kits in four hours. [I'm pretty handy with Photoshop, though] Four!)

2.) The "Adidas Live Season" apparently being handled by chimps. I understand you want to reflect form, but dear heaven, why is Robin van Persie rated better than Cesc Fabregas, Fernando Torres and Sergio Aguero?

Aguero has been struggling for past few games with his condition. And on the other hand Van Persie was pretty prolific in last few games. Stll, I'm just playing advocatus diaboli here ;]

Prederick wrote:

Since the game has so very, very few injuries (for the same reason most EA games have few injuries, if players lost Leo Messi at the rate that he's gotten injured in real life, there'd be outrage and "AI CHEATING" threads spamming the forums) it tries to model fatigue in a ludicrous way. Players essentially are incapable of resting up between games, meaning you have to chop and change 4-8 members of your squad every game. Which is ludicrous.

It's a bit like this in PES 2009. But, on a positive note:
1. Minor injuries (1-2 weeks) happen pretty often.
2. Amount of fatigue really depends on the way you play particular player during games. It sounds pretty obvious, but it's done pretty well, so you could expect how fatigued players will be after games. After some time with game it doesn't anno me, but I see it more like a challenge: how to play Quaresma to not exhaust him. And that makes sense compared to real world: you can't expect to run aimlessly with your best player for whole 90 minutes, you've got to think how to work as a unit.
3. Fatigued players still play well so you could usually play them for like three games in a row if you want to.

ctomer wrote:

But my biggest problem with the game is the fact that I sometimes don't feel that I'm in control, in particular the passing.

Welcome to UC's world.

ctomer wrote:

My first experience of 10v10 quick team play was a bad one. Everyone was trash talking each other. Everybody would chase the ball. No one would make any passes. I don't think I received a single pass from any of my team mates.

I see you've never heard of the "Pubtard". That's been my experience in games too. You really can't go into it looking for exciting team play, there's as much chance of getting that here as there is on a random CoD4 server. I just turn the volume on my headset all the way down, and concentrate on what i'm doing, which is usually playing right-back or something.

This games tries so hard to delude people with all those numbers (tens of thousands of players, hooray!) and yet fails to deliver cause PES beats it with edit mode.

I agree, the sub-par edit mode is a huge, huge loss. That said, for me it's slightly balanced out by PES's ratings methods being antiquated at best.

Aguero has been struggling for past few games with his condition. And on the other hand Van Persie was pretty prolific in last few games.

I agree. But that's why i'm talking a "light touch". One bad game does not turn Kaka into a Championship plonker.

I agree, the sub-par edit mode is a huge, huge loss. That said, for me it's slightly balanced out by PES's ratings methods being antiquated at best.

btw: Does FIFA have special abilities? Cause I've been thinking...:
IMAGE(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3417/pesle0.jpg)
After all that's what makes Alessandro Nesta special. I think that we're in no position to judge how 'antiquated' whole game mechanics are since we're not sure how stats translate into gameplay itself. (Though I'd love to see FM stats in that game too :))

Prederick wrote:

Alright, something else I loathe.

FIFA doesn't really have many fouls in the game. Matter of fact, FIFA has few to no fouls, so free-kicks are rare. But the only injuries in the game come from fouls. So there are few injuries.

When I was playing in the MLS in Be a pro mode there were so many cards and fouls it was ridiculous. Once I transferred to the EPL the amount of fouls went down drastically. I'm guessing this has to do with higher ratings for defense.

Prederick wrote:

Since the game has so very, very few injuries (for the same reason most EA games have few injuries, if players lost Leo Messi at the rate that he's gotten injured in real life, there'd be outrage and "AI CHEATING" threads spamming the forums) it tries to model fatigue in a ludicrous way. Players essentially are incapable of resting up between games, meaning you have to chop and change 4-8 members of your squad every game. Which is ludicrous.

In Manager mode if you don't immediately buy upgrades for the trainer that controls stamina recovery you are going to have issues.

As for injuries I think it has something to do with the strength attribute. In Be a pro I missed a good chunk of games. Once I ramped my strength up into the 80's I stopped getting injured? I noticed plenty of injuries in the MLS games, but I haven't seen one in the EPL games in Be a pro or Manager mode.

Prederick wrote:

PES had this problem last year, although slightly less pronounced (instead you'd have to change every 2-3 games) but still. Can anyone game that isn't FM recognize that players have, in some cases, a full week to recuperate between games and that serious fatigue doesn't start to accumulate until February or so? Cristiano Ronaldo started 46 games last year, Jamie Carragher 51, Fabregas 43. They can play more than one game in a row without being totally gassed.

I have been playing as ManU in manager mode and because you start out with wads of cash I was able to upgrade my trainer to an 8/10. With the exception of cup weeks I can play the same lineup every game and even then my central defenders can play every game.

ctomer wrote:

Is it me or is there way more offsides in 09? It might reflect more accurately the number of offsides in a real game, but it just irritates me that my AI controlled players can't keep themselves onside.

This irritates me to no end. In my EPL games there are usually more offside calls then there are fouls. I would appreciate it if the game would blow some of the closer offside calls to make things a bit more realistic.

UCRC wrote:

After all that's what makes Alessandro Nesta special. I think that we're in no position to judge how 'antiquated' whole game mechanics are since we're not sure how stats translate into gameplay itself. (Though I'd love to see FM stats in that game too :))

I think we are. It's not my fault if the ratings seem couched in mystery. It means SeaBass could try a little harder to add some more transparency to the game, to explain these things. For instance, why is "Long Pass" such a silly-looking rating? Passing, even through the air and crossing, i'd argue, are different enough to warrant different ratings, but for some reason, Xabi Alonso is rated as a better long passer than most wingers. Which ostensibly, means he's a better crosser of the ball. Unless there's a hidden "crossing" rating that I can't see. And it doesn't seem to be in the special abilities either. If I can't figure this out, and I can't find any information on it, i'm not going to prescribe it to the mysterious doings of the programmers in the greater good, i'm going to say they could've done a bit better to explain it.

I have a huge issue with nebulous, undefined things in sports games that may or may not be superfluous. Tell me what it does. Moreover, as i've said before, and say again and again and again, considering all the things that make a defender good, the game has a sole rating for defense, and i've had just as much success in years past with Titus Bramble as with Paolo Maldini. They could do a whole lot more, and the ratings need an overhaul.

When I was playing in the MLS in Be a pro mode there were so many cards and fouls it was ridiculous. Once I transferred to the EPL the amount of fouls went down drastically. I'm guessing this has to do with higher ratings for defense.

I'd agree with you there, but i'm playing in League 1 currently, a level roughly the same (in-game) as the MLS. No fouls at all. Of course, i'm not playing in Be A Pro mode so YMMV.

I have been playing as ManU in manager mode and because you start out with wads of cash I was able to upgrade my trainer to an 8/10. With the exception of cup weeks I can play the same lineup every game and even then my central defenders can play every game.

See, you shouldn't have to though. Even players on Sc*nthorpe clock in 35+ games a year. Again, I understand what EA's trying to do, but as usual, they're using a heavy-handed touch and not addressing it reasonably. I'd say, ideally, that upgrading your trainer should have a greater effect on injury prevention and recovery. Obviously, it should effect game-to-game recovery as well, but I shouldn't have to blow $5M to get things to basic realism.

EDIT: Oh, and as for special abilities, again, something feels needed with those. Either making them REALLY special or distributing them more. Back before I cashed in on PES 2008, I found some guy online who was re-doing player ratings for a bunch of players in the game (which again, I feel, was needed). One of the results of this was of many, many more players getting special abilities in game, which, in effect, did at least make things a bit better gameplay-wise. However, the userbase shouldn't have to do this kind of labor post-release to get the game to do what it should do in the first place.

Prederick wrote:

See, you shouldn't have to though. Even players on Sc*nthorpe clock in 35+ games a year. Again, I understand what EA's trying to do, but as usual, they're using a heavy-handed touch and not addressing it reasonably. I'd say, ideally, that upgrading your trainer should have a greater effect on injury prevention and recovery. Obviously, it should effect game-to-game recovery as well, but I shouldn't have to blow $5M to get things to basic realism.

Yeah I agree. I guess it came off as sounding like I was defending a pretty lame aspect of the game.

Prederick wrote:

I think we are. It's not my fault if the ratings seem couched in mystery. It means SeaBass could try a little harder to add some more transparency to the game, to explain these things. For instance, why is "Long Pass" such a silly-looking rating? Passing, even through the air and crossing, i'd argue, are different enough to warrant different ratings, but for some reason, Xabi Alonso is rated as a better long passer than most wingers. Which ostensibly, means he's a better crosser of the ball. Unless there's a hidden "crossing" rating that I can't see.

That's the problem. We can't really what's underneath and how does the game equate certain things. Is it long passing itself? But crossing is essentially bent long pass. So.. Long passing + swerve? But what about technique, or player's power? And special abilities like 'side', which make player a more talented winger? We can't really tell. And what really is important *in gameplay sense* are not stats but these certain equations. You could put three times more stats into game and still you won't cover every possible aspect of game, you will just make your research and game development three times harder. Therefore crossing = long passing + swerve... I can understand that when you make football game, you've got to work on generalisations because that's the system that makes it easier for you. Certain decisions might be wrong, some of them surely are. But it's really hard for me to judge when I merely scrapped the surface.
Still, I think that your point about lack of transparency is very correct indeed.

Enough of these kickabout games - FM 2009 demo is out on Steam on Sunday Nov 2, and also on www.sigames.com and www.footballmanager.com.

Can't wait to see what the board expectations are at City

I can get with that UC. As I said before, despite any misgivings I have shown here, I fully believe that this year isn't one of "This or that" for Soccer gamers, but that we're being absolutely spoiled with a glut of fantastic choices and it's simply down to one's preference and amount of free time.

I already pre-ordered FM by the by. I can't wait.

Here's http://www.youtube.com/user/sigameso... match footage.
If it wasn't for FM 2008 I'd be dying to play that ;]

I'll be brief with you:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA http://www.footballmanager.com/ AAA
.

The 3D match footage looks really nice.

Oh, as a humorous aside, i'm tinkering with the demo right now and they give you around $125M as chairman of Man City. While I understand they'd like to balance the game, if any of the rumors are true, they're about $400M short of reality.

I'm there too Prederick - I wondered who'd been using my stapler while I was out of the office.

Just had a couple of games so far, seems nice enough, although I'm not sure that I'm getting enough feedback as to how my team is doing as I do in FM2008. First game was a bit of a disaster...away to some Macedonian side in the UEFA Cup quals, had Petrov sent off for retaliation and Robinho out for a month injured. Interface is reasonably intuitive, but the 3D looks a little stilted and I do miss me little dots. I also wonder how many combinations of actions there are in the 3D, and whether it will become repetitive.

Oh, and a note to SI - white text on light blue is not very good for seeing what the hell is going on.

davet010 wrote:

Oh, and a note to SI - white text on light blue is not very good for seeing what the hell is going on.

Fortunately it should be quite easy to change that by yourself.

davet010 wrote:

Interface is reasonably intuitive, but the 3D looks a little stilted and I do miss me little dots. I also wonder how many combinations of actions there are in the 3D, and whether it will become repetitive.

There's 2D engine underneath, so
a) you should be able to play in 2D (don't know how, haven't played a match yet)
b) everything in 3D is governed by old match engine so you could expect all sorts of things you saw in 2D view already (or were you talking about player animations?)

Anyone else having a problem with it crashing ? Done it twice now on me - just hanging when I press continue.

Sort it out, SI !

How much did you spend so far? In my game world City is at 72mil, having bought Arshavin, Zhirkow, Anyukov and few others.
btw: Take look at Palombo from Sampdoria. Arsenal problems with holding midfielder - solved. ;]

I just tooled around with City and then went back to my LLM ways, which means struggling with a $18K budget at Notts Co.