Duke Nukem Forever Catch-All

I think I get what Mechaslinky says, as I'm no fan of how often the word misogynist is used. I think people confuse hatred and disrespect.

This game disrespects women, but it doesn't hate them. Misogyny is more likely to make you gay than it is to make you a womanizer, unless you're the sort of womanizer that only gets a boner by choking a woman while you plow her (yes, I'm taking it to extremes). Duke seems to keep the Holsom Twins around despite the fact that they have nothing interesting to say, so clearly he doesn't hate them. He isn't given a blowjob and then says "f*ck off".

It's a fine line between sexism and misogyny, and in the end it's really a semantic argument. This game doesn't hate women. It just doesn't respect them and objectifies them, and in the one scene where you could genuinely care about them, it seems to f*ck everything up with really, really bad jokes.

Honestly, attempting to draw a line between disrespecting women by treating them as sexual objects purely for men's pleasure and hating women is just shocking. Beyond the fact that I don't see how that's not hate, I have to ask who/what are you defending? The English language? You absolutely know what is being said and nitpicking the vocabulary is just counter productive to any purpose this discussion might have.

Potato/Potato

The Duke Burger level was pretty cool. I liked that one quite a bit!

Barab wrote:

The Duke Burger level was pretty cool. I liked that one quite a bit!

You mean the original one, right?

Spoiler:

The burgers were made of DOGS

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Potato/Potato

That soo doesn't work in text.

AmazingZoidberg wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Potato/Potato

That soo doesn't work in text.

Bah! text/text

gregrampage wrote:

Honestly, attempting to draw a line between disrespecting women by treating them as sexual objects purely for men's pleasure and hating women is just shocking. Beyond the fact that I don't see how that's not hate, I have to ask who/what are you defending? The English language? You absolutely know what is being said and nitpicking the vocabulary is just counter productive to any purpose this discussion might have.

I look at it this way. If I hate someone, I wish them harm. I want them to suffer. They have no redeeming qualities. If I don't respect someone, then I'm merely apathetic towards their thoughts and feelings.

Of course, considering the fate of the women in the one level, one can view it as wishing harm upon them and being hatred, but then anything that shows a woman suffering in some manner is misogynistic. This is simply not true. I feel that, in the end, the feeling of women in this case is merely disregarded for the sake of making a joke.

In fact, the feelings of ANYONE are disregarded.

Bah, whatever.

Got up to "The Hive", and I'll say that Duke Dome was the first level where the combat became close to fun. Everything walks the tight rope of being fun and frustrating. As a result going through this game feels a bit like work. Sure, sometimes you like work, but it's still effort. I never feel like I'm really absorbed in. I'm always noticing how little ammo I have for the "good" guns (of which there really are none so far), or how annoying the boss fights have been thus far, or how little Ego you have.

It's like playing Halo on Legendary, where every five seconds the screen is flashing, warning you you're about to die. Only in Halo the enemy at least uses cover as well, so when you try and duck and hide you actually have a chance to recover.

AmazingZoidberg wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Potato/Potato

That soo doesn't work in text.

Or does it work even better because the difference isn't there!? Admit it, your mind is blown.

Again, cces, potato/potato. You can claim that, from a certain perspective, rain is condensed liquid falling from above and contains certain impurities blah blah blah, but it's still piss.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
AmazingZoidberg wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Potato/Potato

That soo doesn't work in text.

Or does it work even better because the difference isn't there!? Admit it, your mind is blown.

You might as well say "you say potato and I also say... potato, because I read them both the exact same way without being given any pronunciation cues thereby robbing the witticism of it's meaning and utility."

ccesarano wrote:

Misogyny is more likely to make you gay than it is to make you a womanizer.

Uh. I think you'll find a greater correlation between misogyny and homophobia than misogyny and homosexuality.

AmazingZoidberg wrote:

You might as well say "you say potato and I also say... potato, because I read them both the exact same way without being given any pronunciation cues thereby robbing the witticism of it's meaning and utility."

I dunno, I admit it's abstract, but I'd say the fact that you read them both exactly the same emphasizes the meaning and utility.

Also, what Switchbreak said.

Never thought the Duke Nukem Forever thread, of all things, would bring us this dangerously close to Cleveland.

I for one, am glad that this discussion is taking place, and can't imagine it occurring pretty much anywhere else on the internet. All I ask is that this thread not get canned unless it turns into an actual petty circular flamewar. Otherwise, it is completely reasonable and healthy for a society to analyze and discuss the social implications of a video game, doubly so in a mature forum about video games.

Switchbreak summed it up best, but I'd like to add that, although I don't like using it as a basis for my discussions, Wikipedia actually has a pretty good page on misogyny, with a lot of links should one wish to read further on feminism and patriarchal social constructs.

I was going to play this game, then I heard how much it sucked. I figured I'd wait for a massive discount (Steam sale), but then I heard about tentacle rape & killing pregnant women. I'm glad 3D Realms isn't able to benefit from producing such "jokes", and am saddened by the massive level of immaturity and ignorance displayed by Gearbox. So sad.

ccesarano wrote:

Misogyny is more likely to make you gay than it is to make you a womanizer

I don't have any idea how to respond to this without taking the thread on a large and unpleasant derail. Maybe I can talk for a bit about why objectification is misogynistic instead.

Objectification removes personhood, and defines the value of another human being wholly in terms of their use to you. It is a form of subjugation, and applied systemically it is incredibly harmful. To say that a person objectifiying women doesn't wish them harm is just saying that he's ignorant of his effect on the world - he is doing harm all the same, and chances are if he weren't somehow unaware of that he still wouldn't care.

As for this game, I'll say this: I don't mind campy exploitation in games. I just think that when a game hits the point where it is including scenes of rape/torture/murder, it shouldn't also creepily sexualize those women at the same time, and then doubly shouldn't play the whole scene off as a punch-lineless joke, as if it is hilarious in and of itself. That goes way beyond problematic issues of male gaze. When it's placed on top of a marketing campaign that goes out of its way to portray women as non-human objects, I can't help but see a pattern of hatred there.

Puce Moose wrote:

Thank you Duke Nukem for giving us this thread; probably more entertaining than the game itself.
Random question about the game itself; how are the pipe bombs? I believe I read that they brought back the remote-exploded pipe bombs. Any other variations on this theme/creative new timed/proximity explosives, etc.?

Glad you're enjoying the show.

So far, I've only seen the remote-detonated pipe bombs. They're nice and functional. Not too weak, not too strong, easy to use. I haven't heard of any other variations of pipe bombs, but there are trip mines as well. Place them on a wall and out comes a lazer. Touch the lazer, mine explodes. So far I haven't found many uses for these.

Jayhawker wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

It's hilarious when people take seriously everything said by the author of Max Applesauce.

Seriously.

When putting Mecha's comments into context, I think of this.

IMAGE(http://www.theandykaufmanaward.com/images/andy1247436674.jpg)

Even though I just sort of stumbled onto a sore spot with some people around here rather than intentionally trying to make them angry for comedic effect, I'm still honored. Andy Kaufman was an insane genius, in my opinion, while I'm probably just insane.

ccesarano wrote:

I think I get what Mechaslinky says, as I'm no fan of how often the word misogynist is used. I think people confuse hatred and disrespect.

Use of aluminum in cans began in 1957.[2] Aluminum is less costly than tin-plated steel but offers the same resistance to corrosion in addition to greater malleability, resulting in ease of manufacture; this gave rise to the two-piece can, where all but the top of the can is simply stamped out of a single piece of aluminium, rather than laboriously constructed from two pieces of steel. A label is either printed directly on the side of the can or will be glued to the outside of the curved surface, indicating its contents.

Thank you. Yes, that's what I was trying to say in my own abrasive, inept way.

gregrampage wrote:

Honestly, attempting to draw a line between disrespecting women by treating them as sexual objects purely for men's pleasure and hating women is just shocking. Beyond the fact that I don't see how that's not hate, I have to ask who/what are you defending? The English language?

Yes.

gregrampage wrote:

You absolutely know what is being said and nitpicking the vocabulary is just counter productive to any purpose this discussion might have.

There's so little else to talk about in relation to Duke Nukem that this seems like the only possible avenue of discussion.

AmazingZoidberg wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
AmazingZoidberg wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Potato/Potato

That soo doesn't work in text.

Or does it work even better because the difference isn't there!? Admit it, your mind is blown.

You might as well say "you say potato and I also say... potato, because I read them both the exact same way without being given any pronunciation cues thereby emphasizing that we're all basically saying the same thing and this discussion, just like the game that inspired it, is an insipid waste of everyone's time."

I am the fixer of all things that aren't my mouse button! Why is my mouse button not working? I tried everything. I hit it. I sweared at it. Nothing seems to work!

Switchbreak wrote:

A tentacle or bothrium (plural: bothria) is one of usually two or more elongated flexible organs present in animals, especially invertebrates. The term may also refer to the hairs of the leaves of some insectivorous plants. Usually, tentacles are used for feeding, feeling and grasping. Anatomically, they work like other muscular hydrostats.

See, that makes sense and I completely agree. What I was originally getting at wasn't that Dick Stickem wasn't misogynistic and therefore was a perfectly upstanding game, but that perhaps it wasn't all the way into misogynistic territory. Perhaps it was just right at the doorway, poking a toe into misogyny's room and going, "I'm not touching anything. I'm not touching anything." I was wondering if maybe people were using misogyny incorrectly, but this makes sense. Essentially, by being so unabashedly sexist, it's misogynistic to its very core. It's not necessarily overtly misogynistic, and that makes it seem more sinister to me.

I'm glad you explained it in that way, because looking at dictionary definitions and skimming through Wikipedia wasn't making it connect like that in my broken-ass brain. I wanted someone to come in with something like this, and I was beginning to feel like I was being attacked, for lack of a more accurate word, for not outright agreeing with those who were most offended by the game. That's an over-reaction, I'm aware, but I was starting to wonder if maybe I should just duck out of this thread and not look back. So, thank you.

My apologies to anyone who was upset or annoyed by this derail. I have a fascination with words with negative connotations, especially when they get used so freely by a large number of people. I often wonder if maybe the word is being used incorrectly or perhaps just too much to the point where it begins to lose all meaning or take on some weird-ass other meaning, and I like to try to figure out exactly what people mean when they use the word. I sort of went about it in a roundabout way this time because I was initially just writing down my impressions of the game as I was going through it and then kind of ranted a little.

To those of you who were entertained by this absurd little side-trip, give me money.

RoughneckGeek wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

Misogyny is more likely to make you gay than it is to make you a womanizer.

Uh. I think you'll find a greater correlation between misogyny and homophobia than misogyny and homosexuality.

Yeah, that was sort of a weird sentence, but I don't think Ccesarano (sounds like some sort of Italian spice) was trying to say there's a correlation. He was just using it as an example, like saying, "If there was a correlation between the types of sweets you eat and your sexuality, white chocolate would make you enjoy penises." I think. Or maybe he's trying to tell us something he's been keeping secret for a long time.

WipEout wrote:

I for one, am glad that this discussion is taking place, and can't imagine it occurring pretty much anywhere else on the internet. All I ask is that this thread not get canned unless it turns into an actual petty circular flamewar. Otherwise, it is completely reasonable and healthy for a society to analyze and discuss the social implications of a video game, doubly so in a mature forum about video games.

$50! Give it!

I wonder how embarrassed everyone at Gearbox is now that this game is out. I imagine everyone there will be leaving this off their resumes.

MechaSlinky wrote:

An awesome post that cleared things up very well.

Tom Chick brings the hate.

The real value of Duke Nukem Forever is that you can use it to gauge the range of any reviewer's lowest rating. Here is the baseline for how low games can go. I can’t imagine anyone awarding this with anything beyond the basic “well, it booted up” rating. I can’t even imagine anyone even caring about the gameplay implications of things like the two gun limit or the regenerating health, because that presupposes it’s a game worth playing. But there is almost nothing to recommend this shallow, stale, unfunny, underdeveloped exercise in shovelware that looks and plays like something an Eastern European developer you'd never heard of might have sold for $9.99, but that you'd find in a bin at Target for $1.99.

I wish people wouldn't insinuate that Bulletstorm was a crap game - I loved it. It was a superfun romp that in no way took itself seriously. The way that people use it as a comparison for DNF denigrates Bulletstorm.

Alien Love Gardener wrote:

Tom Chick brings the hate.

The real value of Duke Nukem Forever is that you can use it to gauge the range of any reviewer's lowest rating. Here is the baseline for how low games can go. I can’t imagine anyone awarding this with anything beyond the basic “well, it booted up” rating. I can’t even imagine anyone even caring about the gameplay implications of things like the two gun limit or the regenerating health, because that presupposes it’s a game worth playing. But there is almost nothing to recommend this shallow, stale, unfunny, underdeveloped exercise in shovelware that looks and plays like something an Eastern European developer you'd never heard of might have sold for $9.99, but that you'd find in a bin at Target for $1.99.

No more review copies for you, Mr Chick!

I can understand how you'd feel attacked, Mech, but I hope you understand how baffling it was to see you describe the ways the game is misogynistic, then say it's not, and why I in particular attempted to illustrate that gulf the way I did. I still think if Duke only approaches misogyny, then the standard is impossibly high--I really don't think you'll see a more maladjusted treatment of women in a mainstream big release game this year. Hell, I don't think we'll see one ever. It's not a grey sort of case like Tomb Raider, where there's a case that it's exploitative and a case that Croft is tough and respectable. Outside of the morlocks on other sites, I didn't expect to see any sort of defense of the game's attitude, because it's pretty indefensible, and hence I took what you were saying seriously--we're obviously big boys, we can back it up without resorting to "LAWLZ why so serious?", and I think we did. Anyway, I don't really see the point of making the case "It's appalling, but not the appalling-est." At the same time, I'm with you, it was a decent discussion to have, because we're sure as sh*t not going to get a case this stark again, unless someone wants to go into the deepest, darkest underbelly of hentai hell.

I'd wish you continued enjoyment, but the reviews (the hilarious reviews) have made clear it'd be an empty sentiment.

MechaSlinky wrote:

To those of you who were entertained by this absurd little side-trip, give me money.

The check is in the mail.

Switchbreak wrote:

When it's placed on top of a marketing campaign that goes out of its way to portray women as non-human objects, I can't help but see a pattern of hatred there.

Wait, isn't the point of that so that people can pose with the Duke as sexy schoolgirls? Aren't those life-size?

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Switchbreak wrote:

When it's placed on top of a marketing campaign that goes out of its way to portray women as non-human objects, I can't help but see a pattern of hatred there.

Wait, isn't the point of that so that people can pose with the Duke as sexy schoolgirls? Aren't those life-size?

Yeah, but I don't think that changes the fundamental message they are sending.

I'll grant you that reading subtext is subjective, but to me it seems kind of hilariously emblematic of the game as a whole that it is being promoted by posters of literally faceless women. Whether fans put their own heads in there or not, the message being screamed is "here are two placeholders with breasts, don't they make good decoration for this iconic character?"

Quintin_Stone wrote:
MechaSlinky wrote:

To those of you who were entertained by this absurd little side-trip, give me money.

The check is in the mail.

I'll have The Escapist forward my payment along to you.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I like to put butter on everything. Everything...

Oh, don't worry, I understand completely. I wasn't trying to defend Duke, merely figure it out, but I didn't write down my thoughts in a way that effectively conveyed that. That's why I know it's kind of ridiculous of me to feel attacked in the first place. I know nobody was actually attacking me, and I've had enough similar opportunities in my past that I've gotten pretty good at recognizing when I'm correct in my assumptions and when I'm being paranoid.

Enjoyment might be a bit strong. Perhaps morbid fascination? It's like when you find a hobo corpse so you go through his things and then rip open his body just to see what you can find. You hope it's caramel corn, but it never is. Not after that first time...

SallyNasty wrote:

I wish people wouldn't insinuate that Bulletstorm was a crap game - I loved it. It was a superfun romp that in no way took itself seriously. The way that people use it as a comparison for DNF denigrates Bulletstorm.

Are you kidding? Bulletstorm would have been 1000x better if they gave it the Unreal treatment. You wake up on a crashed ship and have to get home. No cut-scenes, no dialog, no nothing. Just gameplay.

That game took itself way too seriously for what it was trying to do in terms of gameplay.

Me wrote:

Misogyny is more likely to make you gay than it is to make you a womanizer.

Rereading that, it sounded a lot better as I was typing it than it does reading it now.

In truth, that only came to me because I have a friend that got "so sick of women and their sh*t" that he decided to try dating other men. SURPRISE! He liked it, and now he's gay. Oddly enough, with sex out of the equation he gets along with women a lot better than he used to, but most of his friends are still straight guys. Take that as you will.

I should have deleted what I wrote anyway, as halfway through I felt like I had written myself into a corner. I mean, saying "Misogyny is when you hate someone, and hate is when you wish harm on them. Duke Nukem Forever doesn't wish harm on women! It just forcibly impregnates them with an alien that blows them up!"

Yeah, that works when your tone is like that in Alien, where papers have been written about the whole experience being a man's natural fear of rape and pregnancy, so on and so forth. Doesn't work so well in this game.

All I have to say at this point is Randy Pitchford needed to stop defending Duke and just said the main character is an asshole and that's the whole point.

ccesarano wrote:

I should have deleted what I wrote anyway, as halfway through I felt like I had written myself into a corner. I mean, saying "Misogyny is when you hate someone, and hate is when you wish harm on them. Duke Nukem Forever doesn't wish harm on women! It just forcibly impregnates them with an alien that blows them up!"

I know, right? But bless you for sticking with it to the bitter end.

I've literally had nothing to do all day. Too much time to think. You want to know the result? What if all the women in this game were replaced with Bill Cosby. Would the game then be racist or just hilariously creepy?

False substitution. It would have to be Bill Cosby portraying an awful black stereotype.

Switchbreak wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
Switchbreak wrote:

When it's placed on top of a marketing campaign that goes out of its way to portray women as non-human objects, I can't help but see a pattern of hatred there.

Wait, isn't the point of that so that people can pose with the Duke as sexy schoolgirls? Aren't those life-size?

Yeah, but I don't think that changes the fundamental message they are sending.

I'll grant you that reading subtext is subjective, but to me it seems kind of hilariously emblematic of the game as a whole that it is being promoted by posters of literally faceless women. Whether fans put their own heads in there or not, the message being screamed is "here are two placeholders with breasts, don't they make good decoration for this iconic character?"

But Switch, a woman without a face cannot suck your wang. That's the last thing Duke would want.