Jagged Alliance 2 remake in 3D by bitComposer

Caddrel wrote:

Jagged Alliance 2 is a game about the player organising a group of mercenaries to support a rebellion in a despotic country. The game designers, in the manual, reference many times how they wanted to make the combat system feel as realistic as possible.

How is one brain trying to control 4 bodies in real time, realistic?

If it's pausable real-time, and you can queue orders etc and the unit AI is spectacular, then it might be a decent game. But I'd still say it's no JA2.

syndicatedragon wrote:

If it's pausable real-time, and you can queue orders etc and the unit AI is spectacular, then it might be a decent game. But I'd still say it's no JA2.

If it's "Real-time" like Dragon Age where you can pause and queue actions and orders then it could be fun still.

But I would prefer a "remake" not try to rework what was already a really fun game. Turn-based combat in these types of games just works too well.

Caddrel wrote:
MoonDragon wrote:
Caddrel wrote:

Why are people so attached to the turn-based combat?

You may find non-turn-based chess fun, but most people who actually like playing chess would think the game that is not turn-based--no matter how closely matching the look and feel of chess otherwise--cannot, in fact, be chess.

I would venture a guess that people, similarly, consider turn-basedness of JA2 to be a defining characteristic, rather than a limitation.

Which people? Are you talking about you?

It's certainly a characteristic of the game. But of all the replies so far, the best people can come up with is, "Because we like it." But why do you like it?

Why is that not good enough for you? Do you really have to argue against someone else's preference?

You're well beyond asking for an explanation at this point, your point seems to be that other people want turn-based when you want real-time. So crazy right? And what's the deal with airline peanuts?

MoonDragon wrote:

How is one brain trying to control 4 bodies in real time, realistic?

If you're suggesting making it a first-person, squad-based shooter, people may start to throw things.

PyromanFO wrote:

Why is that not good enough for you? Do you really have to argue against someone else's preference?

You're well beyond asking for an explanation at this point, your point seems to be that other people want turn-based when you want real-time. So crazy right? And what's the deal with airline peanuts?

Well, whatever happens, be sure not to get defensive about it.

Alpha footage with German commentary (via RPS).

I mentioned this on RPS; the video makes it look as if they're doing a Naked Gun movie tie-in.

What does plan and go mean exactly? Is it realtime, but step based like fallout tactics?

I just noticed this is bundled with the Kalypso weekend deals. Can't say I'm happy about the removal of the turn based option. They could have given players the option of either turn based or real time like in Fallout Tactics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagged_...(series)#Jagged_Alliance:_Back_in_Action

The 'complex set of rules' which includes a new controversial "Plan & Go" system which is designed to focus on real time combat, optionally removing the turn based gameplay that the Jagged Alliance series is known for. It also removes the fog of war but allows players to easily plan out strategies and improves the flow of the missions to be less time consuming.

Copypasta from Wikipedia. The article suggests there might be a turned based option as well. Maybe allowing players to easily plan strategies means that it is pausable real-time, hard to say.

Removing fog of war is lame though.

Weird, by the language alone its starting to sound a little like Men of War.

How so? Does Men of War of optional turn-based or pauseable real-time modes?

hannibals wrote:

How so? Does Men of War of optional turn-based or pauseable real-time modes?

Pausable real time. But it also eliminates the fog of war and lets you see everything. Most of the singleplayer missions are extremely hard, even when you can see where the enemies are.

I just checked the price of JA:BIA on steam. You can't preorder the game by itself but you can buy packs. And then I checked their 66% discount packs..... 100$ for JA:BIA....

What are those guys thinking. If the real price is 100$ who will buy the game? Yes , there might be a bunch of good deals on a lot of fun games but I don't want 15 games - I want one game....

That might not be such a bad thing, though I'd still miss the turn based option ala Fallout Tactics. I wonder if Bethesda will revive that ever title.

Caddrel wrote:

Why are people so attached to the turn-based combat? Having tried to play JA2 for the first time recently, that part of the game hasn't aged well at all. I'd imagine the only reason JA2 even used turn-based combat was because of scarce resources of one sort or another.

Battlestar Galactica was much better without a robot dog.

The thing about Jagged Alliance is that once you take out the game mechanics, there's really not much there. Fallout's switch-up from turn-based to whatever it is made a lot of sense because Fallout was always more about the atmosphere than the game mechanics. Fallout's turn-based mechanics were dated even when it was released. I didn't really love the result, but I'm in the vast minority, and it was done for good reasons.

With X-com, the change looks good at the surface level. X-com's success had a lot to do with atmosphere, and the world created around X-com was oddly compelling. The problem is that the game mechanics were inseparably connected with that atmosphere. The fact that you had to carefully calculate every shot and position every player then wait patiently while the enemy did the same behind some darkened curtain: that was what made X-com work. It's the sense of helplessness you have from not being completely in control. That's why almost all of the sequels have been crap: it's very difficult to reproduce that loss of control in real time without making a broken game.

With Jagged Alliance, when you take away the game mechanics, what you're left with is a sort of 80's action movie parody and some latent sexism (and a wee bit of racism to boot). Nobody really cares what's going on with Ice or Haywire these days. The 80's movie send-up has been done multiple times, and has resulted in some iconic or near iconic games (the First Duke Nukem, Just Cause 2, possibly the entire Modern Warfare series, etc.). It's just not worth the effort "updating" it.

interstate78 wrote:

It's scheduled for 2012, at no specific date yet. You'll be able to pre-order it in time. Right now I guess they've thrown it in as a "bonus" on a package. Only about 20$ more which ise a fair price if you're already sold on the Kalypso anniversary pack.

I think you can call it "funny pricing" in the JA:BIA pack it costs 100$ and in the tropico 4 + JA:BIA pack it costs 70$. Can you see the saving now . i'll wait for release . I played Tropico 3 had a little fun but I'm not too attached to it.

There are currently 2 games on my potential buy for full price list (not a big one): JA:BIA,X:rebirth . The only reason BF3 isn't there is because it's a DX11 game and I need a new computer for it.

I'll wait. The mechanics aren't that scary because I played most of XCOM Apocalypse (XCOM 3) in that mode .

kazooka wrote:

Fallout's turn-based mechanics were dated even when it was released. I didn't really love the result, but I'm in the vast minority, and it was done for good reasons.

I tend to agree fallout was created ahead of its time and Fallout 3 is how fallout should have been..

kazooka wrote:

With X-com, the change looks good at the surface level.
.
.
That's why almost all of the sequels have been crap: it's very difficult to reproduce that loss of control in real time without making a broken game.

I think what was good about Xcom was its simplicity- tactical squad combat against a superior foe. Things usually don't go as planed. All the graphical update don't affect the game - it should stay isometric and maybe allow to rotate it. I'm a big XCOM fan I enjoyed all of them except for Enforcer - it didn't feel like XCOM.... I even played interceptor ;).

edit:moved to logical position

kazooka wrote:
Caddrel wrote:

Why are people so attached to the turn-based combat? Having tried to play JA2 for the first time recently, that part of the game hasn't aged well at all. I'd imagine the only reason JA2 even used turn-based combat was because of scarce resources of one sort or another.

The thing about Jagged Alliance is that once you take out the game mechanics, there's really not much there. Fallout's switch-up from turn-based to whatever it is made a lot of sense because Fallout was always more about the atmosphere than the game mechanics.

The only problem with turn based mechanic - it take a really long time . This I why I played tbs+pause in Apocalypse and the destructive environment was fun . Every game has it's own charm. We'll have to wait and see if JA:BIA is playable then check if it's fun . JA is a franchise owned by SF and now it's trying to convert it into $s . They have a very good interest to make a good game and that might have been their main problem that caused quiet a few squeal cancellation . I guess BitComposer are doing a decent enough job that they got so far. I think that picking a German Company was a pretty good idea. There is a big German fan base for JA and Germans generally get the job done. You might have heard Gary Lineker's famous soccer quote: "Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win. " .(source)

They should use the Silent Storm engine, if it's available. That was the best damn squad-level tactical game in years and years and years. It felt very much like Jagged Alliance, but with a fully destructible environment. If you didn't have a good shot at a bad guy, you could blow a hole in the wall, or knock out the supports on his platform, or bring down the entire building on his head in a few cases. Still turn-based, but it was really fun.

Then you got to the second half, when the game completely fell apart. Worst frickin' transition ever. It went from a vaguely believable WW2 sim that was a TON of fun to this insane, ludicrous scenario with the Nazis (and eventually you) stomping around in sort of a cross between Fallout's power armor and a 'mech. All the skills you'd been building were suddenly useless, and it became this slugging match of these ridiculous, stupid creations.

And they released an expansion, and they did it again. What a bunch of morons they were. Such a fantastic engine, such nice graphics, such f*cking brain dead designers.

I'd love to see that engine used for a JA2 recreation, or even a sequel. It's extremely well-suited; the mechanics were almost exactly the same, except the engine was 3D, and everything could be blown up.

I agree the Silent Storm engine is great. Unfortunately the game suffer from really slow AI (probably a similar problem to Dwarf Fortress"). I guess the mechs weren't a good Idea but they had to find something to use RPGs on . I once had fun with RPG in the original game. I stumbled into Nazi patrols on purpose and snack toward people with an RPG hitting them from relatively close range.

Sentinels was much better than the first game. It had more visible weapon stats (namely penetration) which helped you pick and use them correctly.

JA3 was once considered to be implemented on Silent storm engine. There was a demo but the Russian developer halted it's development. It was a long story with Akella (kinda remind me of their Disciple 3 feet dragging until release).

Niseg wrote:

I just checked the price of JA:BIA on steam. You can't preorder the game by itself but you can buy packs. And then I checked their 66% discount packs..... 100$ for JA:BIA....

What are those guys thinking. If the real price is 100$ who will buy the game? Yes , there might be a bunch of good deals on a lot of fun games but I don't want 15 games - I want one game....

It's scheduled for 2012, at no specific date yet. You'll be able to pre-order it in time. Right now I guess they've thrown it in as a "bonus" on a package. Only about 20$ more which is a fair price if you're already sold on the Kalypso anniversary pack.

I just noticed that the JA2 remake has appeared on the "coming soon" tab of Steam. Guess its going to be a reality after all!

Should I play JA2 or just wait for this?

Tamren wrote:

I just noticed that the JA2 remake has appeared on the "coming soon" tab of Steam. Guess its going to be a reality after all!

Should I play JA2 or just wait for this?

Play JA2. Be sure to get the 1.13 mod/patch.

Is it anything like Fallout Tactics?

BlackSabre wrote:

Is it anything like Fallout Tactics?

Yes, kind of. There's no real-time option though.

From various Steam sales I own all JA2 games. Never had a chance to get into them originally, and I keep trying to get into them now, but the learning curve is insane. I would love to love these games though.

Can't wait for a more modern version with more visibility, UI feedback, and some streamlined gameplay.

While I was let down by the change to real-time because of how completely sparse this type of game is, I was willing to give it a chance anyways if it was implemented well enough. From the sounds of it, though, it's turning into an undercooked mess. Oh well.

Guys over at VoodooExtreme put up a lets play / preview vid and it looks pretty cool. I'm thinking that this could scratch that tactical itch for me.

Oh my god, I want this game right now. It's not the neatness of Silent Storm universe, but I will take it.

Nice stuff! I still haven't played the original so I have no basis for comparison. But I do like what I see in the video.