8% of children born in US have illegal immigrants for parents?

MattDaddy wrote:

Every single time? I haven't posted here in months, and I didn't notice much of anything in any of the recent topics that criticizes the Democratic or liberal side of things in any of them. Yet I still see lots and lots of "conservatives are nothing but racist morons" type comments filling up thread after thread. Hmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the lack of conservative voices here.

Guess nothing has changed since I've been gone. I will go away again, and hopefully this time I will resist the urge to come back.

If you have a different interpretation of what's happened to the GOP or what different factions are involved then please tell us. I don't think anything I said should be a shock to anyone, including die-hard members of the GOP.

What the GOP was in the 50s and 60s and maybe even the 70s is not what the GOP turned into post-Reagan. They actively courted the Religious Right to make sure they could get the votes they needed to stay in power and became honestly surprised--and a bit scared--about the popularity of Huckabee and Palin. They demonized the very government they were part of. And they certainly haven't a party of fiscal conservatives for the past decade at least, leaving the GOP a party truly searching for a platform.

And it would be a lot easier to say conservatives weren't "nothing but racist morons" if they wouldn't continually act like they were. And I'm not saying that as a big city liberal, I'm saying that as an American citizen who is shocked by the palpable fear and hatred many conservatives express towards anyone who isn't like them. We're supposed to be the "give us your poor, your tired, your humble masses yearning to be free" country, but the right seems more interested in putting up an Iron Curtain. We're also supposed to be the country that rewards the clever, yet the right seems intent on undermining the very things that power our economy--science and technology--because those things supposedly clash with the religion most of them follow.

In many respects the GOP seems to be hell bent on making itself an insular party of older Christian whites and nothing more, which is really a shame because we need more voices heard and represented by our political party, not fewer.

MattDaddy wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

MattDaddy, you're right, both sides are messed up and we do need to fix both in order to fix things. That said, it is occasionally OK to talk about - and yes, criticize - the GOP without immediately criticizing the Democrats to an identical degree. I know that conservatives are in the minority here and that tends to make people defensive, but please. Do we need to go here every single time?

Every single time? I haven't posted here in months, and I didn't notice much of anything in any of the recent topics that criticizes the Democratic or liberal side of things in any of them. Yet I still see lots and lots of "conservatives are nothing but racist morons" type comments filling up thread after thread. Hmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the lack of conservative voices here.

Guess nothing has changed since I've been gone. I will go away again, and hopefully this time I will resist the urge to come back.

Yes, every single time you post it's to remind us that we can't attack the conservatives because the liberals are not flawless.

If you want to sulk about this being an echo chamber and take your ball and go home, that's your choice. Just don't continually say, "but the Democrats" and pretend that that's a cogent defense of the Republicans.

What I would find immensely fascinating is if sensible libertarians, liberals and old school conservatives decided to form a party. I, like many others, have friends who are old school conservatives. More libertarian than hardline conservative. So they don't care much about the social issues. They care more about the government's intrusion into their lives. They are fairly open minded socially, but they don't want the boat rocked too much. They love America, but don't like our foreign adventurism of late. When I talk to these friends or read discussions of people in that vein (some people here, for example), I'm reminded how sad it is that people like that are so hard to find. People who can disagree, yet not be disagreeable. People who you can debate with, then have a beer with. People who want to keep their hard earned money, but genuinely want to find a way to help out the poor and provide quality education, even if the means are different.

I see the fringe of the Left, the fringe of the Right, the Fundamentalists, the No Logo folks, the extreme environmentalists and the corporate captured politicians on both sides of the aisle and I realize that there are a hefty chunk of us who are tired of all of that. Tired of the politics, tired of the posturing, tired of the bribes, tired of the graft. We just want good governance or less governance. You could probably put together a party out of that hodge podge. Call it the "Grown Up Party".

It's hard not to wonder what would happen if we had something more akin to a parliamentary system where old school conservatives and moderate liberals and libertarians could form a coalition of common sense. Unfortunately I don't see moderation becoming more common in politics any time soon. Not unless it comes with regulatory capture and state control as the reason for moderation in debate. I fear for the country.

That's an interesting idea DSGamer, but we'd just find other crap to argue about in the "Grown Up Party." That's the problem with Democracy; put two people in a room together, get three opinions. Maybe the arguments would be more intelligent and less infuriating, but they'd still be arguments. Worse, they'd be arguments over beliefs held for good, well-considered reasons. Sure it's impossible to argue with someone who doesn't know why they believe something, but have you ever tried arguing with someone who knows exactly why they believe what they do?

Honestly, what you've described sounds a lot like one aspect of the Tea Party at its inception. From what I've seen, that is no longer the dominant aspect (though some partiers do like to use it as a shield or bumpersticker).

Do remember that America is Capitalist. Deeply, culturally, Capitalist. If there was a market for the "Grown Up Party," there'd be one. What we have is apparently what sells.

We have an ignorant populace so ignorance sells. "The Bachelor" and "American Idol" are watercooler talk. That's all you need to know.

DSGamer wrote:

We have an ignorant populace so ignorance sells. "The Bachelor" and "American Idol" are watercooler talk. That's all you need to know.

Every time I catch a glimpse at the latest "reality tv" show, I wonder how long it will be before we get "Ow, My Balls!".

Paleocon wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

We have an ignorant populace so ignorance sells. "The Bachelor" and "American Idol" are watercooler talk. That's all you need to know.

Every time I catch a glimpse at the latest "reality tv" show, I wonder how long it will be before we get "Ow, My Balls!".

Court TV's changed their name to Tru TV and advertise their website by saying, "if they knew we were going to do this, they wouldn't have invented the internet."

So you've pretty much already got it. They just call it "World's Dumbest Criminals" or something.

LobsterMobster wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

We have an ignorant populace so ignorance sells. "The Bachelor" and "American Idol" are watercooler talk. That's all you need to know.

Every time I catch a glimpse at the latest "reality tv" show, I wonder how long it will be before we get "Ow, My Balls!".

Court TV's changed their name to Tru TV and advertise their website by saying, "if they knew we were going to do this, they wouldn't have invented the internet."

So you've pretty much already got it. They just call it "World's Dumbest Criminals" or something.

Hmm. When do we get President Camacho?

Paleocon wrote:

Hmm. When do we get President Camacho?

Almost there. Remember when the candidates appeared on WWE? or even the fact that Jesse Ventura was governor of Minnesota? Baby steps.

bilbodiaz wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Hmm. When do we get President Camacho?

Almost there. Remember when the candidates appeared on WWE? or even the fact that Jesse Ventura was governor of Minnesota? Baby steps.

Also Schwarzenegger, Reagan, Franken and Springer. Not that any of these gentlemen were/are idiots. Here in Connecticut we're looking at Linda MacMahon, too. Not too sure about her.

I prefer the Grand Unified Predator theory. President Apollo Creed is going to be awesome.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I prefer the Grand Unified Predator theory. President Apollo Creed is going to be awesome.

"Let me tell you a little story about acting. I was doing this Showtime movie, Hot Ice with Anne Archer, never once touched my per diem. I'd go to Craft Service, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup... baby, I got a stew going. "

Paleocon wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

We have an ignorant populace so ignorance sells. "The Bachelor" and "American Idol" are watercooler talk. That's all you need to know.

Every time I catch a glimpse at the latest "reality tv" show, I wonder how long it will be before we get "Ow, My Balls!".

Doesn't Jackass count for that?

As an Independent, I pretty much despise both parties now. My economics and finance falls relatively conservative (won't say right) and I don't care for big government, though I see the use in some cases, I really don't care about the social issues. Gay marriage? Who cares? At the very least it is additional tax revenue for charging them as married.

I do find it entertaining that the guy who says something bad about the liberals gets jumped on. It gets said that his attack is not a coherent defense of the GOP, which it isn't, but what does it matter. Attacking them right back doesn't provide an adequate defense for what he said. Not that I want to get on this endless cycle of fighting, just found it entertaining.

I do find it entertaining that the guy who says something bad about the liberals gets jumped on. It gets said that his attack is not a coherent defense of the GOP, which it isn't, but what does it matter. Attacking them right back doesn't provide an adequate defense for what he said. Not that I want to get on this endless cycle of fighting, just found it entertaining.

You're a consultant, which means you are new, so I'll just point out that there's a history behind his statements of which you are unaware and which created the response. It did not come out of the blue and we don't mob people for stating their beliefs. (We may mob them for making unsupported claims, however, no matter which side they are on.)

obirano wrote:

I do find it entertaining that the guy who says something bad about the liberals gets jumped on. It gets said that his attack is not a coherent defense of the GOP, which it isn't, but what does it matter. Attacking them right back doesn't provide an adequate defense for what he said. Not that I want to get on this endless cycle of fighting, just found it entertaining.

You yourself noted that it wasn't a coherent defense of the GOP. Therefore if this is a discussion of the GOP, then giving it a full response would be off-topic. I would argue that this is the sort of reaction the "but the Democrats" crowd looks for as it puts their perceived opponents on the defensive and allows them to leave a potentially uncomfortable question unanswered.

There is time and room to discuss the sins of the Democrats. Step one of that is clicking, "New Thread." Honestly I'd like to jump in to one of those conversations as I've been far from pleased with the Obama administration as of late.

Furthermore, reality doesn't care much about bias. Even if this was nothing but a left-wing echo chamber, our own biases and hypocrisies would not automatically render our statements false. I'll admit that it is hard to be a right-winger in the P&C forum, and in fact we've lost a couple. Not because it's against the rules to be conservative but because they became so fatigued and jaded they started responding with the sort of aggression and snark that is against the rules.

We have had many discussions about the bias on GWJ, both the real and the perceived. They tend not to be fruitful and end with frustration and hurt feelings.

That aside, welcome to P&C and I hope you stick around.

Robear wrote:
I do find it entertaining that the guy who says something bad about the liberals gets jumped on. It gets said that his attack is not a coherent defense of the GOP, which it isn't, but what does it matter. Attacking them right back doesn't provide an adequate defense for what he said. Not that I want to get on this endless cycle of fighting, just found it entertaining.

You're a consultant, which means you are new, so I'll just point out that there's a history behind his statements of which you are unaware and which created the response. It did not come out of the blue and we don't mob people for stating their beliefs. (We may mob them for making unsupported claims, however, no matter which side they are on.)

While I don't visit this board, the fact that I am a consultant doesn't have to mean I am new. I've been a member for close to 3 years at this point. I just don't post much. I'll probably come around on occasion though. Typed on phone, so sure to have errors.

That's great, obirano, but it was a reasonable conclusion to draw, especially since you don't seem to know the history in this case. Sorry if I gave offense.

You didn't. I assumed there was some history to it.

Just to prod and poke for fun, but aren't liberals supposed to be the more caring and understanding group? You should have more patience for him even if he keeps doing the same thing.

Can you at least take the off topic discussion about me to PM?

Eh. I'll just quit in general. Sorry about that.

On topic, I am somewhat surprised that the number is that high and at the same time not so much. I currently live in NW Arkansas (yes we wear shoes, no I did not marry my cousin or sister, though if you go to Southern Arkansas....) We've had a very large influx in our Hispanic population over the last several years.