Dragon Age 2 - Catch All

But my goodness, that first year was long!

Second act couldn't last long enough!

Third act was ok...

One thing I found absolutely hilarious is how during the very first part of the game, the first story that Varric tells, your main companion mage-lady (can't remember her name) has gigantic boobs. Then that mean lady tells Varric to start over or something, and then the chick's boobs are smaller and more normal looking.

So the game is utilizing the common literary trope of the untrustworthy narrator in interesting ways.

So far really enjoying this, minus the respawning enemies.

Quick plot clarification.

Spoiler:

I just finished the quest where you help the Grey Warden bust his mage friend out. Am I right in that the Grey Warden is possessed?

El-Producto wrote:

So far really enjoying this, minus the respawning enemies.

Quick plot clarification.

Spoiler:

I just finished the quest where you help the Grey Warden bust his mage friend out. Am I right in that the Grey Warden is possessed?

Spoiler:

Right-ish. There's a spirit inside him - they're both characters in Dragon Age: Awakenings - some time between the end of DA:A & DA:2, they merge - it's not exactly a possession, more like a strained living arrangement.

Tanglebones wrote:
El-Producto wrote:

So far really enjoying this, minus the respawning enemies.

Quick plot clarification.

Spoiler:

I just finished the quest where you help the Grey Warden bust his mage friend out. Am I right in that the Grey Warden is possessed?

Spoiler:

Right-ish. There's a spirit inside him - they're both characters in Dragon Age: Awakenings - some time between the end of DA:A & DA:2, they merge - it's not exactly a possession, more like a strained living arrangement.

Thanks, I'm assuming I'll learn more about it

I have Awakenings.. but haven't played it!

Cross posting this here:

Jeff-66 wrote:

Amazon has Dragon Age Origins Ultimate, PLUS Dragon Age 2, for $11.99 today. Not each, you get both games for that. And it drops to $6.99 if you have a holiday promo code.

wow. i paid 25 for origins ultimate back in the day.

Played a ton of this while sick over the weekend. It just keeps getting better. My favorite part so far has been

Spoiler:

When Varic is telling the story about what happens when you enter his estate, and you have to moment where you are just him alone. It was super fun to mow down all the enemies, and then was just icing on the cake to find out, he was making it all up. Great usage of the storytelling aspect.

One thing i'm kinda miffed at is the Herbalist side quest. Apparantly you can't get one of the items until your doing Merril's companion quest. I wasted some time looking around Sundermount for that enemy to no avail. Thank you internet for helping on that one.

Yoreel wrote:

Played a ton of this while sick over the weekend. It just keeps getting better. My favorite part so far has been

Spoiler:

When Varic is telling the story about what happens when you enter his estate, and you have to moment where you are just him alone. It was super fun to mow down all the enemies, and then was just icing on the cake to find out, he was making it all up. Great usage of the storytelling aspect.

An excellent scene, definitely, and one of two times that:

Spoiler:

Cassandra explicitly catches Varric in a lie. Both times, you'll notice, he's lying to protect Hawke.

The first time is in the prologue, when Varric lies about how Hawke got to Kirkwall. Notice that Varric didn't tell Cassandra about the existence of the other sibling, or Mama Hawke. Tell me what you think the reasons for that might be after you finish the game.

The second time is here, when Varric tries to pretend that Hawke never came with him to his brother's estate. (Have you finished the quest?) Again, I'd be curious to hear what you think the reasons for Varric's lie here might be -- after you finish the game.

Varric makes no bones about being an unreliable narrator, although as players, I think it takes us longer to accept it. Like Cassandra, we want to believe Varric knows the truth, that he's telling us what really went down back then. We don't want to be lied to--or, rather, we don't want to know that we're being lied to.

But once you do accept Varric's bullsh*ttery, oh, you start seeing his marvelously unreliable hand everywhere you look, from the caves he can't describe, to the curiously appropriate books on Hawke's bookshelf, to words whispered between lovers in the dark.

KaterinLHC wrote:
Yoreel wrote:

Played a ton of this while sick over the weekend. It just keeps getting better. My favorite part so far has been

Spoiler:

When Varic is telling the story about what happens when you enter his estate, and you have to moment where you are just him alone. It was super fun to mow down all the enemies, and then was just icing on the cake to find out, he was making it all up. Great usage of the storytelling aspect.

An excellent scene, definitely, and one of two times that:

Spoiler:

Cassandra explicitly catches Varric in a lie. Both times, you'll notice, he's lying to protect Hawke.

The first time is in the prologue, when Varric lies about how Hawke got to Kirkwall. Notice that Varric didn't tell Cassandra about the existence of the other sibling, or Mama Hawke. Tell me what you think the reasons for that might be after you finish the game.

The second time is here, when Varric tries to pretend that Hawke never came with him to his brother's estate. (Have you finished the quest?) Again, I'd be curious to hear what you think the reasons for Varric's lie here might be -- after you finish the game.

Varric makes no bones about being an unreliable narrator, although as players, I think it takes us longer to accept it. Like Cassandra, we want to believe Varric knows the truth, that he's telling us what really went down back then. We don't want to be lied to--or, rather, we don't want to know that we're being lied to.

But once you do accept Varric's bullsh*ttery, oh, you start seeing his marvelously unreliable hand everywhere you look, from the caves he can't describe, to the curiously appropriate books on Hawke's bookshelf, to words whispered between lovers in the dark.

The more I play, the more the whole "this is a story" mechanic is coming into view, and I love it. It will prompt another play through, with a different line up, but I may keep Varric around just because I love his dialogue so much.

In regards to that quest:

Spoiler:

I did finish it and kept Bartrand alive, so I could see him lying about everything to try and protect his brother. I'm sure he is trying to separate Hawke as much as possible from any actions with the Idol that was discovered, as I think that plays a role in where the story is going. I will have to see what happens as I play further.

D_Davis wrote:

One thing I found absolutely hilarious is how during the very first part of the game, the first story that Varric tells, your main companion mage-lady (can't remember her name) has gigantic boobs. Then that mean lady tells Varric to start over or something, and then the chick's boobs are smaller and more normal looking.

Is this if you play a non-Mage Hawke? My companion for that part was a dude. Speaking of which... there's a spell I cast in that part that has an animation a lot like Firestorm from DA:O--a whirlwind of fire. It's the only time I saw that animation in DA2, and I specced as an Elementalist.

Yoreel wrote:

In regards to that quest:

Spoiler:

I did finish it and kept Bartrand alive, so I could see him lying about everything to try and protect his brother. I'm sure he is trying to separate Hawke as much as possible from any actions with the Idol that was discovered, as I think that plays a role in where the story is going. I will have to see what happens as I play further.

I did the same. Consider my lips sealed.

I'm on the final battles of Act II right now and wow Lara is 100% right about this game being amazing. Some awesome moments from last night that really gave me an emotional response were

Spoiler:

The whole second interaction with Petrice. Oh I was pissed at her for the first time she used me, and hated her the second time, but when she killed the Vaicounts son, and tried to blame me, that was the final straw. Seeing her get an arrow to the head by a Kunari was so satisfying.

My mother dying was so horrible. They kept that quest line going, and took it from some little side thing about a missing wife, and ended it with a crazy mass murderer, Buffalo Bill style with a side of Necromancy. I was disgusted that someone could do that, and so sad that there was nothing I could do. Having the final words with the mother was such a gut wrenching scene, but one I'm glad they left in there.

Aveline's romance was pure hilarity. Each one of her encounters with her love interest was hilarious.

Isabella can die in a fire. I was all hooray for her free spirit, pirate attitude, but when she took off with the artifact, basically starting a war within the town, I was done with her. I hope that I get the chance to make her pay for all the innocent lives that were lost because she was worried about some big time criminal who was after her. Hey Pirate idiot, why not avert a war by not being an idiot, realizing that two of your companions are The Champion, and the captain of the guard. I'm pretty sure that they could have handled the crook after you.

The fight with the Verandeal was great too. I think that may be just because I am getting tired of fighting spiders and bandits. Seeing something 100% different was great, and had some good challenge to.

I'm sure there are more that I could talk about but those were just from a couple hours of play time last night. What a great game.

Yoreel, just curious: What's your friendship/rivalry meter look like with Isabela?

Yoreel wrote:
Spoiler:

Isabella can die in a fire. I was all hooray for her free spirit, pirate attitude, but when she took off with the artifact, basically starting a war within the town, I was done with her. I hope that I get the chance to make her pay for all the innocent lives that were lost because she was worried about some big time criminal who was after her. Hey Pirate idiot, why not avert a war by not being an idiot, realizing that two of your companions are The Champion, and the captain of the guard. I'm pretty sure that they could have handled the crook after you.

Spoiler:

That's one point I thought was interesting, as there was no option to tell Isabela "how about we return the artifact and then just go kill the dude that's out to get you?" I guess that would have undercut a major part of the story, but it's the option I wanted as well.

complexmath:

Spoiler:

Interestingly enough, there is actually an option to do that. You need to get your loyalty meter with Isabella sky high in order to get her to stay, but if you do, she comes back with the artifact before the Arishok duel.

I'm replaying this one now. I was a fan at first but on the second round, it's even better. Most of the flaws (re-used areas, irritating combat waves) feel a little more forgivable. The combat waves in particular have even made for some fantastic fights playing on hard.

On the other hand, the story and characters are reminding me that this really is Bioware's best effort yet. The way they build up to quests throughout acts, re-use secondary characters and use Varric as narrator really, really should be done again. I'm halfway through the second Act. I may stop after it as I recall the plot cohesiveness falling a bit afterwards.

Dragon Age: Origins is one of my favorite videogames. Like, ever. It's right up there with Fallout: New Vegas... it's seriously filled with awesome. It's a game I loved to death. It's what I always wanted Baldur's Gate to become. I F*N LOVED DA:O SO BAD.

And so, I have long dreaded the day that I would finally pull DA:2 off the pile, since I was sure it would foul my memory of that game that I loved so much.

Before I talk about the game, a technical gripe: I bought this on Origin for like $8 or something when it was on sale months ago. I recently installed Origin and the game, only to be confronted with an error (that seems like a failed disc-based copyright check - with a game from a digital distribution platform). It turns out that as shipped the game doesn't work, and you have to manually install a patch; Origin does not even update games for you which is so bizarre considering how well Steam does this.

But yeah, on to the game!

Intro sequence: Mmm, fakey fake fake combat with premade characters. It's all some flashback from some guy in a chair talking to some chick (dig that armor, though). Surely it will make sense later.

Character creation: DA:O gave me such an awesome array of back stories. I knew going in that it wasn't the case with DA2, but I so hated that character creation screen with 6 different humans on it so much. It made me think about DA:O and about how much I missed it.

NOW THE GAME BEGINS!

Difficulty: nightmare. That's what I used on DA:O, so I know it's all good. Perfect challenge level for me!

OK, on to fighting guys for real... wait, what, we're all dead? I can't zoom out? WHAT IS HAPPENING?!

I chose nightmare, I expected hard... but... this? Dead on that first fight? With no healers? That's on a par with some of the toughest non-boss encounters in DA:O already.

Try again. Manage to barely survive after setting tactics to chug potions, although the tank dies. Phew. Maybe it gets easier? At least I have heal now...

Next couple of fights I limp through. Get to a point where there are about a half dozen archers with a big dude.

Take one: die fast.

Take two: big dude dies! but another wave hits me and down we go...

Take three: kite to victory! super cheese!

OH MY GOD THIS IS HARDER THAN CAUTHRIEN IN DA:O AND THAT IS A FIGHT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOSE

So, I'm starting to get the idea that the combat in this game is completely broken. We get to the ogre and the tanks crumple like paper, and at this point I've learned my lesson: just kite your way to victory.

We talk to Flemeth, who I killed in DA:O, so um, not sure about that one. Guess this could be the past? Onward to Kirkland Signature!

Now I need to sign up for a year of indentured servitude - rad! And guess what - I have to kill some dudes. In DA:O, I was good at killing dudes. In DA:2... not so much. He mops the floor with me. Even kiting fails me. I have to enlist the help of the guard.

Quit game. Ponder.

Does Nightmare get fixed later? Or is it "balanced" around cheesing everything completely and letting your party members take dirt naps while you run around and plink from afar? Was all combat designed by the B team?

I have to say I like the fact that Hawke is voiced. So far the only thing I like about this game. I AM DISAPPOINT even compared to my already very low expectations.

So far, DA:2, you suck.

The combat in DA2 is, IMO, better than the one in DAO, but it's new and it's different so you don't understand a lick of it, so don't assume. Scale it back to Normal until you you understand how you're supposed to manage actions and interactions.

Managed correctly, there is no need to kite anything in DA2, and it's generally counterproductive since spawns are happening all around anyway.

gore wrote:

Difficulty: nightmare. That's what I used on DA:O, so I know it's all good. Perfect challenge level for me!
...
GAME TOO HARD
...
So far, DA:2, you suck.

So, a sequel in which the battle system is changed (and that is the most controversial things about the sequel for months after it comes out) proves to allow a difficulty that is so hard it isn't fun, and the game is the problem? Lower the difficulty, learn how things are different now, then maybe go back to Nightmare.

gore wrote:

We talk to Flemeth, who I killed in DA:O, so um, not sure about that one. Guess this could be the past? Onward to Kirkland Signature!

In the beginning of DA2 you're fleeing the destruction of Lothering, which happens way before it's possible to kill Flemeth in DA:O.

Atras wrote:
gore wrote:

Difficulty: nightmare. That's what I used on DA:O, so I know it's all good. Perfect challenge level for me!
...
GAME TOO HARD
...
So far, DA:2, you suck.

So, a sequel in which the battle system is changed (and that is the most controversial things about the sequel for months after it comes out) proves to allow a difficulty that is so hard it isn't fun, and the game is the problem? Lower the difficulty, learn how things are different now, then maybe go back to Nightmare.

I understand the battle system. It's not a question of understanding the difficulty. Nightmare is broken - at least for as long as I've played it. You do not have tools to win these fights on nightmare, full stop, unless you cheese the system and kite.

Are you telling me that's the intended way to play? Then I'll tell you - it's a bad design.

LarryC wrote:

complexmath:

Spoiler:

Interestingly enough, there is actually an option to do that. You need to get your loyalty meter with Isabella sky high in order to get her to stay, but if you do, she comes back with the artifact before the Arishok duel.

Spoiler:

I actually had my loyalty high enough for this, but there's still no option to say at the outset: "don't worry about that scary dude, we're awesome, let's just go kick his ass." Instead you simply have to tell her to give back the idol, which pisses her off and makes her leave, albeit temporarily, then eventually deal with the guy later as a reaction to events.

LarryC wrote:

Managed correctly, there is no need to kite anything in DA2, and it's generally counterproductive since spawns are happening all around anyway.

Since apparently my problem is that I suck, can you demonstrate the proper tactic for a Mage PC to get into the city from the beginning on nightmare (assuming you take the merc job and have to kill some dude) without ever kiting or cheesing out the AI? Tanks simply crumple in my game.

If you're going to hate anything different from Origins by default, my best advice is to move on.

gore wrote:

I understand the battle system. It's not a question of understanding the difficulty. Nightmare is broken - at least for as long as I've played it.

Are you telling me that's the intended way to play? Then I'll tell you - it's a bad design.

I don't mean to imply that Nightmare is awesome or that you suck at it, just that you are frustrated with the difficulty and it is adjustable. That is a very easily fixed problem. I never had any interest in hard combats in this game, I was so sick of the fights in Origins that I started the game on Easy and left it there until I got cross-class combos, then it was fun at Normal.

I'd be rich if I could find a way to attach a generator to Bioware threads, they just keep on going and going.

I really wonder how differently DA2 would be perceived if it didn't have the number designating it as a sequel. Beyond the industry view that "sequels are awesome!" there doesn't really seem to be a strict need for it story-wise with this particular game.

gore wrote:
Atras wrote:
gore wrote:

Difficulty: nightmare. That's what I used on DA:O, so I know it's all good. Perfect challenge level for me!
...
GAME TOO HARD
...
So far, DA:2, you suck.

So, a sequel in which the battle system is changed (and that is the most controversial things about the sequel for months after it comes out) proves to allow a difficulty that is so hard it isn't fun, and the game is the problem? Lower the difficulty, learn how things are different now, then maybe go back to Nightmare.

I understand the battle system. It's not a question of understanding the difficulty. Nightmare is broken - at least for as long as I've played it. You do not have tools to win these fights on nightmare, full stop, unless you cheese the system and kite.

Are you telling me that's the intended way to play? Then I'll tell you - it's a bad design.

Then why are you insisting on playing on Nightmare?

Blind_Evil wrote:

If you're going to hate anything different from Origins by default, my best advice is to move on.

I don't hate anything different from Origins, but I liked Origins. So when you eschew things that worked the first time, you hopefully replaced them for good reason the next time, and I have not seen any payoff yet.

Atras wrote:
gore wrote:

I understand the battle system. It's not a question of understanding the difficulty. Nightmare is broken - at least for as long as I've played it.

Are you telling me that's the intended way to play? Then I'll tell you - it's a bad design.

I don't mean to imply that Nightmare is awesome or that you suck at it, just that you are frustrated with the difficulty and it is adjustable. That is a very easily fixed problem. I never had any interest in hard combats in this game, I was so sick of the fights in Origins that I started the game on Easy and left it there until I got cross-class combos, then it was fun at Normal.

I really loved the combat in Origins - loved it a lot. The changes here are things I expected to be frustrated by in DA:2, so I'm not entirely surprised that it's making such an ugly first impression.

I'm definitely going to try hard next, since Nightmare seems stupid right now. I could play the game this way, but it's not tactical; running around and abusing AI quirks just doesn't appeal to me.

More crucially for me though, the fact that nightmare is like this is potentially a symptom of failed combat design at a fundamental level. DA:O combat was tight. It broke late game (if you optimized too effectively you could trivialize things on nightmare), and there were some quazi-broken class specs, but overall the system was well thought out. I do not get that impression from DA:2 yet - at all.

ChrisGwinn wrote:

Then why are you insisting on playing on Nightmare?

Because nightmare was well balanced in DA:O. I'm not going to continue playing on Nightmare in DA:2 (I will revisit it once my party has more tactical options available), but I consider its current state near the beginning of the game a design failure.

Just because you can work around a problem does not mean that it's not a problem.