You people are no fun.
Realistically speaking (or vaguely close to "realistically"), I would think that immune systems alone would be reason to stay the heck away from other species. When Europeans came to the Americas, they brought things like smallpox, measles, and a host of other unpleasant things that devastated the native population. Any foreign species coming to the Earth would assumably run into the same sorts of problems. I'd have to think any alien population would have a godawful time adapting to our particular bugs and vice-versa.
That's sort of the reason the original Apollo astronauts were quarantined until they could figure out if they were infected with crap on their suits.
I think, though, that the likelihood of our encountering life with the same genetic language (DNA) are actually pretty slim as well, so it would be pretty surprising if diseases that evolved to predate native hosts would necessarily work on us. There isn't a lot of room in bug programming to generalize. They tend to be pretty specific in their purpose.
This is one of the many reasons I find the whole science fiction idea of interplanetary breeding ridiculously fanciful. The idea of a Vulcan mating with a human is even more ridiculous than a human mating with an asparagus stalk.
That's sort of the reason the original Apollo astronauts were quarantined until they could figure out if they were infected with crap on their suits.
I think, though, that the likelihood of our encountering life with the same genetic language (DNA) are actually pretty slim as well, so it would be pretty surprising if diseases that evolved to predate native hosts would necessarily work on us. There isn't a lot of room in bug programming to generalize. They tend to be pretty specific in their purpose.
This is one of the many reasons I find the whole science fiction idea of interplanetary breeding ridiculously fanciful. The idea of a Vulcan mating with a human is even more ridiculous than a human mating with an asparagus stalk.
Hey, you just have to look for the right porn to see this on a regular basis! But yes, I agree with your fundamental point.
The idea of a Vulcan mating with a human is even more ridiculous than a human mating with an asparagus stalk.
Actually I think I've met some people with that breeding stock.
Well it depends. It might be possible that several words had been "seeded" by the same base DNA and mutated from there. Of course evolution kind of indicates that we are indeed from here, but just sayin'. It was on ST:TNG, after all.
Aliens better hope that we dont find them first. I plan on colonizing the first habitable planet I come across and setting myself up as some sort of God Emperor and ruling with an iron fist.
And just so we are clear Farley I happen to be very fun.
Jonman wrote:I'm not sure I buy the theory that it won't go well for us. Why would aliens even bother us? What's in it for them?
Assuming they have the technology to get to us, why should they use that technology to come visit us instead of any of the other squillion uninhabited planets closer to them? I'm going to assume that Earth doesn't have any precious and rare resource that isn't found elsewhere in similar or greater abundance.
So the only difference between our planet and an uninhabited Earth-like planet elsewhere is us. And we're not that great. Unless the aliens want us for food, the only other interest would be our culture, whether to study, assimilate or impose their own upon it.
So unless our supposed aliens are ravenous carnivores in the midst of a serious food shortage, curious scholars or interstellar missionaries, I doubt they'll be paying us a visit.
Why did Columbus cross the Atlantic? Why did Louis & Clark cross the west? Why do we climb mountains? Why did we go to the moon?
Perhaps being curious about new things, places, and cultures is a side effect of intelligence. If so, then we're going to be the natives and the aliens will be the small pox blanket bearing white men. Just imagine if their religion told them they have to bring their god to Earth and convert the heathens...
Our planet might be enough. Out of the hundreds of planets we've found so far, there hasn't been one close to Earth-like conditions. If a not-to-hot-not-to-cold planet with liquid water is needed for intelligent life and rare, then we're sitting on one valuable piece of real estate.
You're right, out of the hundreds we've looked at, we've not found another planet like Earth. Mind you, there's another 10 ^ 21 star out there that might have an Earth-like planet orbiting them. Them's pretty good odds.
My point is, the cost of interstellar travel is so great, in terms of technology, energy and time (even taking theoretical FTL travel into account), that you have to have a bloody good reason to make that investment.
My point is, the cost of interstellar travel is so great, in terms of technology, energy and time (even taking theoretical FTL travel into account), that you have to have a bloody good reason to make that investment.
Human babies taste good.
You're right, out of the hundreds we've looked at, we've not found another planet like Earth. Mind you, there's another 10 ^ 21 star out there that might have an Earth-like planet orbiting them. Them's pretty good odds.
My point is, the cost of interstellar travel is so great, in terms of technology, energy and time (even taking theoretical FTL travel into account), that you have to have a bloody good reason to make that investment.
I'm not saying we won't find another Earth-like planet. I'm just saying they're likely to be exceedingly rare.
As for making a massive investment, we've done it as a species many, many times over. The pyramids. The Great Wall of China. The Apollo Project. And we've done it for a variety of reasons: religious, fear of invaders, politics, etc.
I'd hazard a guess that if an alien species has figured out the technology that makes crossing interstellar space not only possible, but feasible, then it's likely not going to be too much burden on their society. How much of a burden would space travel be for us if we figured out fusion and nanotech? Effectively limitless and free energy and the ability to make anything as long as you have raw materials reduces the burden quite a bit.
Jonman wrote:You're right, out of the hundreds we've looked at, we've not found another planet like Earth. Mind you, there's another 10 ^ 21 star out there that might have an Earth-like planet orbiting them. Them's pretty good odds.
My point is, the cost of interstellar travel is so great, in terms of technology, energy and time (even taking theoretical FTL travel into account), that you have to have a bloody good reason to make that investment.
I'm not saying we won't find another Earth-like planet. I'm just saying they're likely to be exceedingly rare.
As for making a massive investment, we've done it as a species many, many times over. The pyramids. The Great Wall of China. The Apollo Project. And we've done it for a variety of reasons: religious, fear of invaders, politics, etc.
I'd hazard a guess that if an alien species has figured out the technology that makes crossing interstellar space not only possible, but feasible, then it's likely not going to be too much burden on their society. How much of a burden would space travel be for us if we figured out fusion and nanotech? Effectively limitless and free energy and the ability to make anything as long as you have raw materials reduces the burden quite a bit.
Think of how much the inter-continental railroad must've cost to construct, but it was done because more money could be made from it. I see the same thing with interstellar travel.
Think of how much the inter-continental railroad must've cost to construct, but it was done because more money could be made from it. I see the same thing with interstellar travel.
Assuming that our advanced alien's economy is space capitalism...
I'd hazard a guess that if an alien species has figured out the technology that makes crossing interstellar space not only possible, but feasible, then it's likely not going to be too much burden on their society. How much of a burden would space travel be for us if we figured out fusion and nanotech? Effectively limitless and free energy and the ability to make anything as long as you have raw materials reduces the burden quite a bit.
OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
I'm not sure I buy the theory that it won't go well for us. Why would aliens even bother us? What's in it for them?
OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
The population boost they'd get from conquering us would increase their number of votes in the Galactic Council.
OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
Why? Life's rare, intelligent life much more so. It's a big, cold, and empty universe out there and discovering another sentient life form would be a huge event for any species.
Let's flip the question. Say NASA or SETI picks up radio broadcasts from nearby star and we subsequently figure out that there's intelligent life there. How much do you think we'd invest to stop by for a visit? I'd imagine quite a bit. Why? Because we want--no--we *need* to know about the other intelligent life form. That curiosity is hardwired into us. That first contact would be done for no other reason than we need to know what they're like.
Jonman wrote:I'm not sure I buy the theory that it won't go well for us. Why would aliens even bother us? What's in it for them?
Jonman wrote:OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
The population boost they'd get from conquering us would increase their number of votes in the Galactic Council.
See someone else has been playing MOO.
Jonman wrote:OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
Why? Life's rare, intelligent life much more so. It's a big, cold, and empty universe out there and discovering another sentient life form would be a huge event for any species.
Let's flip the question. Say NASA or SETI picks up radio broadcasts from nearby star and we subsequently figure out that there's intelligent life there. How much do you think we'd invest to stop by for a visit? I'd imagine quite a bit. Why? Because we want--no--we *need* to know about the other intelligent life form. That curiosity is hardwired into us. That first contact would be done for no other reason than we need to know what they're like.
OK, but that's first contact. Are we saying that we'll be the first alien contact for our hypothetical race of spacefaring aliens? Because if we're the thousandth planet-locked race they come across, the sheen might well be off of encountering new species.
OK, but that's first contact. Are we saying that we'll be the first alien contact for our hypothetical race of spacefaring aliens? Because if we're the thousandth planet-locked race they come across, the sheen might well be off of encountering new species.
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.
I'd imagine that spacefaring race of aliens would *really* have to get around for us to be the thousandth alien species they've run into. If c really is the galactic speed limit then every species is going to have a finite bubble that it even has a chance of running into another intelligent life form. Even if they've magicked up FTL, which direction do you go and how far? Again, space is big.
OG_slinger wrote:Jonman wrote:OK, so we can postulate this alien race with cheap, plentiful interstellar travel. Still, why us? There's likely to be more resource-laden planets closer to them than Earth. We have nothing to offer them other than they couldn't get easier elsewhere except for our culture, which may or may not be of interest to a technologically superior race.
Why? Life's rare, intelligent life much more so. It's a big, cold, and empty universe out there and discovering another sentient life form would be a huge event for any species.
Let's flip the question. Say NASA or SETI picks up radio broadcasts from nearby star and we subsequently figure out that there's intelligent life there. How much do you think we'd invest to stop by for a visit? I'd imagine quite a bit. Why? Because we want--no--we *need* to know about the other intelligent life form. That curiosity is hardwired into us. That first contact would be done for no other reason than we need to know what they're like.
OK, but that's first contact. Are we saying that we'll be the first alien contact for our hypothetical race of spacefaring aliens? Because if we're the thousandth planet-locked race they come across, the sheen might well be off of encountering new species.
If a species is that cosmopolitan, it will probably have found other, equally cosmopolitan races; at that point war might not be as likely as prestige games. Maybe we'll get a free uplift?
You know, given our roots as a largely religious species, it wouldn't be tough for a decently ambitious extra terrestrial race to set themselves up as religious godheads -- using either existing mythos of their choosing or new ones.
Since we're musing about the motivations of FTL capable galactic explorers, "amassing worlds of worshipers" doesn't seem to be all that crazy.
And maybe that's already happened. Sure would explain a lot of the imagery from the Old Testament.
You know, given our roots as a largely religious species, it wouldn't be tough for a decently ambitious extra terrestrial race to set themselves up as religious godheads -- using either existing mythos of their choosing or new ones.
Since we're musing about the motivations of FTL capable galactic explorers, "amassing worlds of worshipers" doesn't seem to be all that crazy.
And maybe that's already happened. Sure would explain a lot of the imagery from the Old Testament.
And the alien intelligence getting bored and leaving would explain a lot of the next 3,000 years..
I'm not sure our little monkey brains can see all of the possibilities regarding interplanetary contact, but I personally think it might be one of the following three.
1 (Assuming FTL is possible) There are lots of folks out there, and they all get along relatively well, because they don't let violent, dirty barbarians through the gate. If this is the scenario, then they might know about us and have us under quarantine. If we actually start to poke around outside of this solar system while we still have a hankering for armed robbery, they might decide to send in the local Terminex guy.
2 (Assuming no FTL) There is/was an advanced civilization that was also convinced of their own species divine superiority. They see any other intelligent life as blasphemy against their one true god, cue Robear's killer irradiated asteroids being dispatched to cleanse the universe of the unwashed infidels.
3 (Assuming no FTL) Species survive long enough to make the jump to a digital/robotic existence (think wet ware, downloading of the soul) in which case there might be lots of aliens floating around out there, soaking in energy while play never ending online games and watching virtual pron.
Our planet might be enough. Out of the hundreds of planets we've found so far, there hasn't been one close to Earth-like conditions. If a not-to-hot-not-to-cold planet with liquid water is needed for intelligent life and rare, then we're sitting on one valuable piece of real estate.
You're also making the assumption that alien life needs Earth-like conditions. Sure, Earth is clearly a setup that works. Doesn't mean it's the only setup that works.
One other thing to think of...
Unless we encounter the Klakons a different race is likely to consist of individuals which may have many different factions / goals.
One other thing to think of...
Unless we encounter the Klakons a different race is likely to consist of individuals which may have many different factions / goals.
Or the Meklars - my guess is that they've got a pretty unified set of goals.
I like the idea that humans could agree on any one way to deal with aliens. We're a bunch of shaved monkeys who can't act in our own self interest, divide ourselves by arbitrary lines on the map, pray to imaginary friends, and a shopping list of other illogical behaviours, and we're meant to agree on the best way to greet an intelligent alien contact?
That idea makes me laugh.
I like the idea that humans could agree on any one way to deal with aliens. We're a bunch of shaved monkeys who can't act in our own self interest, divide ourselves by arbitrary lines on the map, pray to imaginary friends, and a shopping list of other illogical behaviours, and we're meant to agree on the best way to greet an intelligent alien contact?
That idea makes me laugh.
+1
Also, the arrogance that we or our home would somehow matter to a species that has the ability to venture beyond their own neighborhood is amusing. We've learned this lesson several times before: Earth is way older than us, earth revolves around sun, sun is but one of many, on and on. We're really not that important.
The chances that we're the first contact of an alien species are greatly outweighed by the chances that we're not. That is, if there are 1000 life-bearing planets in a given area (say, galaxy), then the likelihood that we're first contact is 0.1%.
Realistically speaking (or vaguely close to "realistically"), I would think that immune systems alone would be reason to stay the heck away from other species. When Europeans came to the Americas, they brought things like smallpox, measles, and a host of other unpleasant things that devastated the native population. Any foreign species coming to the Earth would assumably run into the same sorts of problems. I'd have to think any alien population would have a godawful time adapting to our particular bugs and vice-versa.
Seems like I heard a radio show once that ended like this...
1 (Assuming FTL is possible) There are lots of folks out there, and they all get along relatively well, because they don't let violent, dirty barbarians through the gate. If this is the scenario, then they might know about us and have us under quarantine. If we actually start to poke around outside of this solar system while we still have a hankering for armed robbery, they might decide to send in the local Terminex guy.
Don't worry, we can stop them! Klaatu barada nikto!
Even if we did manage to cross paths with extraterrestrials, who says the aliens would be looking for us? I saw Star Trek IV. I know the intergalactic power of the whale song.
Even if we did manage to cross paths with extraterrestrials, who says the aliens would be looking for us? I saw Star Trek IV. I know the intergalactic power of the whale song.
Me too!
We're whalers on the moon,
We carry a harpoon.
But there ain't no whales
So we tell tall tales
And sing our whaling tune
Most of the speculations about alien/human contact are too human. Most likely there is simply no way we can imagine how a contact between species with different environmental and cultural backgrounds might go down.
What if they don`t even recognize us as sentient beings? Would we recognize a sentient rock if we landed on some planet? Would interstellar-traveling rock recognize us? Perhaps it just wants to crash into planet and fuse with the existing materials as part of it`s million-years long self improvement programm. While meanwhile we`re all going "Armageddon! Where`s Bruce Willis?"
I`d say, contact becomes more and more dangerous the more aliens are like us. What if they view this sector as some long-lost homeworld of their ancestors, like some kind of Israel for jews and finally have mustered resources to return?
What if they feel the urge to convert us to some arcane religion no matter what it takes?
Would a hive mind even grasp the concept of billions of individuals and fact that you have to negotiate with each of us? What if the first person they made contact with was a loonie who offered them to stay and multiply?
The possibilities are just too infinite and most likely, we can not even fathom the right ones because of who we are and how we have evolved for thousands of years. Galactic Council is just a human idea, copy/pasting our existing political/cultural developments into sci-fi setting. Perhaps, most of the races in universe live in separately in carefully designed zones because previous such contacts have proven to be disaster.
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