Watching Venezuela Implode

Are you really trying to argue for Venezuela?

At least they charge the banking crooks in Venezuela.

Yes, charge them, then place them into sh*thole prisons. The type of prisons where the prisons have access to gasoline. Chavez is a dictator just like the rest that South America has produced.

Someone has to. The media is a bunch of coupmongers that should have been shut down in 2002. But hey, a judge is in jail now. That is all that matters. The right wing media in Venezuela are no saints.

goman wrote:
But hey, a judge is in jail now. That is all that matters.

It`s kinda amusing to see someone cheering actions that`d make secret police in Soviet Russia proud. And kinda sad too.

goman wrote:
Someone has to. The media is a bunch of coupmongers that should have been shut down in 2002. But hey, a judge is in jail now. That is all that matters. The right wing media in Venezuela are no saints.

I find it very interesting to note the similarities between this argument and the arguments for holding "terrorists" indefinitely. It's clear that both groups are not saints. It's the defintion of the group, and the subsequent removal of rights that's the problem. Who defines who is a "right-wing reactionary" or a "terrorist"? Well, the government, of course. And, once defined, you lose all your rights.

This is why we have independent courts, and at least theoretically the rule of law - and so should Venezuela. The fact that neither of our countries can manage this is sad. We are little better than they are.

Most wrote:
goman wrote:
But hey, a judge is in jail now. That is all that matters.

It`s kinda amusing to see someone cheering actions that`d make secret police in Soviet Russia proud. And kinda sad too.

It is kinda amusing the abuses of private power in Latin America that you ignore.

Kind of like you ignored my post about how Peruvian government shut down some media stations. But hey those are Indians in the middle of the Amazon. Who cares.

So it's okay that they do these things because they're leftist?

Malor wrote:
So it's okay that they do these things because they're leftist?

The only information I can get on this in English is from right wing sources. So we do not have the whole picture.

I know that the banker fled Venezuela and is now in Miami.

Perhaps the judge and the banker are innocent. But if you post just right wing rants on it then I cannot take it at face value. Do you take Fox News at face value?

Thanks for digging your own grave Goman, you've proven yourself morally superior to all of us now.
Despite the condescending aproach of your comments, I doubted your motivations for supporting and defending Chavez' regime, after all, the guy is a charismatic leader without a doubt, and one I've seen otherwise intelligent people I personally know support in the past. I thought I could maybe try at least to show you and the rest of the posters here a closer perspective to the topic at hand, a real perspective at least, imperfect as it may be. But now I see I wouldn't want to change your opinion on the guy, I would not like to have you on my side of anything anyway.

goman wrote:
Malor wrote:
So it's okay that they do these things because they're leftist?

The only information I can get on this in English is from right wing sources. So we do not have the whole picture.

I know that the banker fled Venezuela and is now in Miami.

Perhaps the judge and the banker are innocent. But if you post just right wing rants on it then I cannot take it at face value. Do you take Fox News at face value?

So, there isn't an official communist news outlet in English so you cannot trust it?

feeank wrote:
Thanks for digging your own grave Goman, you've proven yourself morally superior to all of us now.
Despite the condescending aproach of your comments, I doubted your motivations for supporting and defending Chavez' regime, after all, the guy is a charismatic leader without a doubt, and one I've seen otherwise intelligent people I personally know support in the past. I thought I could maybe try at least to show you and the rest of the posters here a closer perspective to the topic at hand, a real perspective at least, imperfect as it may be. But now I see I wouldn't want to change your opinion on the guy, I would not like to have you on my side of anything anyway.


I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

goman wrote:

I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

I wonder if you realize Feeank lives in Venzeuala?

goman wrote:
Most wrote:
goman wrote:
But hey, a judge is in jail now. That is all that matters.

It`s kinda amusing to see someone cheering actions that`d make secret police in Soviet Russia proud. And kinda sad too.

It is kinda amusing the abuses of private power in Latin America that you ignore.

Kind of like you ignored my post about how Peruvian government shut down some media stations. But hey those are Indians in the middle of the Amazon. Who cares.

You either charge him with something or let him free. If you dont do either, it`s basically Guantanamo all over again. It actually is that simple.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:
goman wrote:

I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

I wonder if you realize Feeank lives in Venzeuala?

Of course I realize that. So what. He only speaks for himself.

goman wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
goman wrote:

I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

I wonder if you realize Feeank lives in Venzeuala?

Of course I realize that. So what. He only speaks for himself.

Just wanted to be sure you understood you were telling someone who LIVES in the country under discussion that they are full of sh*t. I see you are aware of that; how amusing.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:
goman wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
goman wrote:

I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

I wonder if you realize Feeank lives in Venzeuala?

Of course I realize that. So what. He only speaks for himself.

Just wanted to be sure you understood you were telling someone who LIVES in the country under discussion that they are full of sh*t. I see you are aware of that; how amusing.

I call people in USA full of crap too about American politics. I live here too.

I am not trying to point out that Chavez is a saint. Just trying to point out what Chavez is up against.

Private sector power is also a destabilizing force. And to ignore that is to each one's peril. Feeank obviously believes that all the problems in Venezuela are due to Chavez. And from his posts there are those that disagree with him in his own country.

Venezuela is obviously not united. This is due to income inequality that is pre-Chavez in birth.

I know a story of an old man who was the Czechoslovakia head of secret police. He was Jewish. Stalin came to power. The Jews were purged from the Communist Party not only in Soviet Union but also in the satellite countries. This man escaped Czechoslovakia and went to Venezuela. He became a multimillionaire there setting up some water infrastructure. He called the Venezuelan poor masses - primitives.

But it is easier for some to blame Chavez for all the mess in Venezuela.

It will be an interesting day when goman gets his tagging thread.

goman wrote:
Private sector power is also a destabilizing force. And to ignore that is to each one's peril.

So that makes you believe all accusations against anyone from the private sector are automatically true?

Quintin_Stone wrote:
goman wrote:
Private sector power is also a destabilizing force. And to ignore that is to each one's peril.

So that makes you believe all accusations against anyone from the private sector are automatically true?

No, accusations from the private sector, RCTV and their cohorts, are suspect.

It is just that the only thing I read in here are anti-Chavez accusations. At least feeank or others did not post the ridiculous Chavez thought earthquake in Haiti was from an earthquake weapon accusation.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...

From the reported economic data that the Chavez government put out Gorman is correct, the economy has grown rapidly since 1999 when Chavez took power. I think it its up about 35 % , however to question the ethics involved in establishing those gains is a whole different matter.

I work at a finance firm , we do have some Venezuelan investments , and the risk algorithms that I have seen make them undesirable for most investors . I haven't seen many " Capitalists" running to Venezuela, in fact Ive noticed more pulling out. The risk and taxation for foreign investors is just makes it unappealing. I know we are just one data point but the taxation and risk will be similar across the bored.

Now answer me something Gorman , what is the price point for quality of life ?
The only thing keeping people fed is the fear of retribution form the government, they have constant rolling blackouts because of power sharing . The system in place is already strained when/ if it does collapse the country will have 0 worth.

boreden-myrddraal wrote:
From the reported economic data that the Chavez government put out Gorman is correct, the economy has grown rapidly since 1999 when Chavez took power. I think it its up about 35 % , however to question the ethics involved in establishing those gains is a whole different matter.

I work at a finance firm , we do have some Venezuelan investments , and the risk algorithms that I have seen make them undesirable for most investors . I haven't seen many " Capitalists" running to Venezuela, in fact Ive noticed more pulling out. The risk and taxation for foreign investors is just makes it unappealing. I know we are just one data point but the taxation and risk will be similar across the bored.

Now answer me something Gorman , what is the price point for quality of life ?
The only thing keeping people fed is the fear of retribution form the government, they have constant rolling blackouts because of power sharing . The system in place is already strained when/ if it does collapse the country will have 0 worth.

Most Americans lost money in American firms the last 10 years. Did your algorithms figure that out? I think risk algorithms are BS myself. See Long Range Capital Management for example.

Foreign investment is not really needed that much in Venezuela anyway. What is needed is social/human capital investment. In education, housing, and health care. And Chavez has done something about this.

But saying that, the bankers figured out a way to make money, see my post about BBVA in Venezuela.

goman wrote:

I think your posts have been pretty condescending also. And you have not posted the full picture either. Like how a pro-Chavez student was gunned down during the recent protests/counter protests over RCTV.

I have a question for you. Did you support the coup in 2002?

I was on the rally that got gunned down by snipers upon arrival to Caracas' downtown April 11th 2002, yeah. I was walking up the street with the rally when the bulletspray started and everyone else but me ducked to cover, luckily a nearby policeman grabbed me by the arm and pulled me behind a kiosk. Next thing I see is one guy being rushed past by me with a jacket over his blown-off head. 17 people were killed that day, some Pro some Anti-Chavez, all of them fellow countrymen.

I applauded and gnawed and yelled in catharsis when his Minister of Defense announced his resignation later that night. What happened after Chavez "resigned" was a head=>ass way to handle the crisis if you ask me, but the truth was that after receiving orders to suppress a pacific rally with Military Force, the High Military Command refused, leading to a chain of events that ended up on his resignation. When he returned, they said it had been a "coup". Whatever, history will tell what the truth of that day was.

I would like to be pointed out to where and how did I propose that Chavez is the cause of all our ills. He is the consequence of all our ills actually. Our irresponsability to own up our adulthood as a nation is what gives power to our local Warlords/Caciques to seize and hold power. He is not the first one, though we had a very long period of stability before him. We live in a nation where bending the rules and getting away with it is a trait, not a perk. Chavez embodies our worst vices, our lowest aspirations, to rule and be unaccountable, to have the last word. We were born and raised under the shadow of a great man, Simon Bolivar the Liberator, a genius military and a great state man. In our lowest thought process, we really have no higher aspiration whatsoever to progress, we have all the oil in the world we could possibly need to pay the bills, and we had the best man ever to walk the face of the earth as our forefather, why would we want to raise our standards after that?, we'll never meassure up.

So this guy comes along and throws not one but two REAL coups with over a hundred dead people each and we as a country go out and put him on a pedestal just because the guy who was on charge at the time (the one who gave asylum to Haiti's ousted President at the time, Jean Bertrand Aristide, BTW) Carlos Andres Perez, ended the dream and tried to put the country on track, enforcing neoliberal politics that ended a decade of economic-pretend. From having an imperfect *but* perfectible Status Quo we gambled all on a anti-politician to cleanse the table and start form scratch. Perez was ousted by the supreme court a couple of years later because he used SECRET money from the presidential SECRET budget to provide security to Nicaragua's at the time newly elected President, Violeta de Chamorro (she was under death threat by the Sandinistas who lost the election and who controlled the military).

boreden-myrddraal, the Venezuelan Oil price went up from 10-20$ when Chavez rose to power on 1998 to well over 80$ before the global recession began. What do we have to show for that today? a country with no power nor water. Well f*cking done.

I've just realized I'm hungry and I'm off to eat.

feeank - I see your emotion in your post. Some of it comes off as quite understandable. Some as incoherent. But all as passionate.

Thank you

But you are praising neoliberal policies. And I 100% disagree with those policies because they are also based on economic fallacies.

Honduras is neoliberal to the gazzoo. Like I posted in the other thread. There are 2 major parties. Both conservative, both neoliberal. Honduras is the poorest country in Central America.

Perez's neoliberal policies led to Chavez because those policies did not take the poor masses into account.

If I didn't believe Goman actually drinks his own koolaid, I'd call him a troll.

You know Maverick, you debated Irish politics with me and I didn't take offence even when you referred to some people as animals deserving of their death. Nor did I call you a troll. Just like to point that out.

Feenak, what is the feeling in Venezuela when Chavez's term takes it course? Will he run a puppet like Putin's Medvedev or is there another office he can run for? Will the military get involved?

You know Maverick, you debated Irish politics with me and I didn't take offence even when you referred to some people as animals deserving of their death. Nor did I call you a troll. Just like to point that out.

You made very reasonable points and I took albeit extremist view, but one shared by a lot of people. Gorman isn't actually supporting any reasonable idea and is baiting a citizen of a nation not known for treating dissidents well into a discussion on coups.

I am not being trollish. The title of this thread is trollish. It has been said by anti-Chavez people since 2001. Yet Venezuela keeps on ticking.

MaverickDago wrote:
You know Maverick, you debated Irish politics with me and I didn't take offence even when you referred to some people as animals deserving of their death. Nor did I call you a troll. Just like to point that out.

You made very reasonable points and I took albeit extremist view, but one shared by a lot of people. Gorman isn't actually supporting any reasonable idea and is baiting a citizen of a nation not known for treating dissidents well into a discussion on coups.

I posted facts about Venezuelan economy such as inflation rate and growth rates. How they compare to the 90s pre-Chavez and how they compare to other Latin American countries. I am being very reasonable.

And as all people who don't condemn a coup, feeank does not believe there was a coup to begin with. At least that is what I got out of his post. Like I said it was a little incoherent.

More facts - poverty rates in Venezuela are going down, education and health care are going up. If you don't believe me. Look it up.

It takes a long time to kill an economy and a country. Even little ones are still fairly resilient. People and companies try to survive, and gradually give up things they think are least important as they can't afford them anymore. The bigger the body, the more blood it can lose before failure.... but when failure sets in, it can be sudden and very dire.

Zimbabwe did pretty much exactly what you think Chavez should be doing.

MaverickDago wrote:
You know Maverick, you debated Irish politics with me and I didn't take offence even when you referred to some people as animals deserving of their death. Nor did I call you a troll. Just like to point that out.

You made very reasonable points and I took albeit extremist view, but one shared by a lot of people. Gorman isn't actually supporting any reasonable idea and is baiting a citizen of a nation not known for treating dissidents well into a discussion on coups.

The only reason Chavez is still in power is because the military is under his control. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant. If it wasn't for the failed coup perhaps Chavez would be gone by now. It obviously didn't help. He is still in power now. But the opposition was not patient.