Amanda Knox Found Guilty

jdzappa wrote:

Curious to know how this is playing out in Europe.

Out of the two countries that I have easy access to everyone is incredulous that this has gone on as long as it has. As in - it's a farce. Even the guy that's already in prison most likely doesn't deserve to be there. I don't know the evidence against him but if it's as flimsy as it is for these other two then I don't care that he pleaded guilty to the crime. If he was coerced or whatever and, due to his dodgy status as a "drifter" maybe "admitting" guilt was the best option out of a bad bunch for him as he probably would have been found guilty anyway...

All of which begs the bigger question of "did they do it" It is kind of like the OJ case. The botched investigation, the public interest, etc.

I wonder if Amanda will put out a book in 10 years called "I did it"

jdzappa wrote:

Curious to know how this is playing out in Europe.

Hard to say here in the UK; coverage has been present but the reporting is hardly the most detailed. In general I think most somewhat-aware or educated news readers in the UK would have a dim view of the Italian courts system. They are currently appealing to Italy's Supreme Court, so that may go somewhere. Also as Italy is an EU member state Knox might well be able to appeal to a higher European court, but possibly only if a strong case can be made for the investigation or trial(s) contravening the European Convention on Human Rights

I noticed the victim's parents/family were at the courtroom. What is their take on things?

Paleocon wrote:

I noticed the victim's parents/family were at the courtroom. What is their take on things?

Not very clear to me. I think they issued some kind of statement about if she is guilty she should be extradited

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25983541

Watching that video they seem pretty non-committal.

My take on the BBC writeup (I didn't watch the video) is that they don't really think Amanda did it, but they're kind of clutching at straws and trying to convince themselves the court got it right, because they want an explanation.

I think the family just want to know the truth, or at least have some sort of closure, understandable really and there was a point where this case all became about the pretty white American girl and her kinky sex games with the victim been forgot.

Over here in Leeds, we have quite abit of coverage because Meredith Kercher went to Leeds Uni. I think the slant we get is that Knox is involved somehow or at least knows more than she has ever let on but at the same time Italian courts, like the rest of the country, are corrupt as all hell.

Also lets be honest, is any American government/justice system going to really let the pretty middle class white girl be taken aboard?

onewild wrote:

Also lets be honest, is any American government/justice system going to really let the pretty middle class white girl be taken aboard?

Your cynicism is warranted, but at this point, regardless of who was pronounced guilty by an Italian play-court, the American attitude would be, "You want her? Come and get her."

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
onewild wrote:

Also lets be honest, is any American government/justice system going to really let the pretty middle class white girl be taken aboard?

Your cynicism is warranted, but at this point, regardless of who was pronounced guilty by an Italian play-court, the American attitude would be, "You want her? Come and get her."

IMAGE(http://henryherz.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/arwen.jpg)

I'm seeing a lot of mentions about the concerns of reciprocity. The US holds extradition treaties with 109 countries and make the most extradition requests by far. If they don't honor an extradition from a foreign state there's concerns other countries would be more willing to deny requests from the US. Don't think it'll be a slam dunk either way.

Trophy Husband wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of mentions about the concerns of reciprocity. The US holds extradition treaties with 109 countries and make the most extradition requests by far. If they don't honor an extradition from a foreign state there's concerns other countries would be more willing to deny requests from the US. Don't think it'll be a slam dunk either way.

I think the issue becomes one of questioning the validity of the court that is issuing it. Double jeopardy (tried in absentia after being released for having been found not guilty prior) + a lot of allegations of corruption and lack of evidence would make for a compelling case, at least, to the higher courts of the EU. Plus, wouldn't they have already made such a request before the start of the trial?

Demosthenes wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
onewild wrote:

Also lets be honest, is any American government/justice system going to really let the pretty middle class white girl be taken aboard?

Your cynicism is warranted, but at this point, regardless of who was pronounced guilty by an Italian play-court, the American attitude would be, "You want her? Come and get her."

[Arwen]

I would have gone with a 300 pic myself.

I haven't been following this closely, but from comments people have made, I've inferred that the jury in her first trial said she was innocent, but that the second trial was only heard by a judge or judges, after their Supreme Court said that her peers were full of crap.

Is that accurate?

Other way around, guilty in the first, innocent in the appeal and now guilty in the re-trial but then it goes up the chain to another court to decide again.

Demosthenes wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of mentions about the concerns of reciprocity. The US holds extradition treaties with 109 countries and make the most extradition requests by far. If they don't honor an extradition from a foreign state there's concerns other countries would be more willing to deny requests from the US. Don't think it'll be a slam dunk either way.

I think the issue becomes one of questioning the validity of the court that is issuing it. Double jeopardy (tried in absentia after being released for having been found not guilty prior) + a lot of allegations of corruption and lack of evidence would make for a compelling case, at least, to the higher courts of the EU. Plus, wouldn't they have already made such a request before the start of the trial?

Double Jeopardy isn't a rule in Italian law, and the US extradition treaty with Italy doesn't allow for consideration of the validity of the court or the ruling. There is, however, plenty of legal "stall" actions available that could drag out an extradition, *if* requested (it hasn't been yet), for a very long time. The right US Judge and court could keep filling for things like more information for quite a long time, and take the maximum amount of time between filings and re-requests.

Italy might see it as a "victory" for their legal system to convict her but never actually request her extradition. They let the guy walk out of the courtroom, and I don't think he's been rounded up.

Shoal07 wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of mentions about the concerns of reciprocity. The US holds extradition treaties with 109 countries and make the most extradition requests by far. If they don't honor an extradition from a foreign state there's concerns other countries would be more willing to deny requests from the US. Don't think it'll be a slam dunk either way.

I think the issue becomes one of questioning the validity of the court that is issuing it. Double jeopardy (tried in absentia after being released for having been found not guilty prior) + a lot of allegations of corruption and lack of evidence would make for a compelling case, at least, to the higher courts of the EU. Plus, wouldn't they have already made such a request before the start of the trial?

Double Jeopardy isn't a rule in Italian law, and the US extradition treaty with Italy doesn't allow for consideration of the validity of the court or the ruling. There is, however, plenty of legal "stall" actions available that could drag out an extradition, *if* requested (it hasn't been yet), for a very long time. The right US Judge and court could keep filling for things like more information for quite a long time, and take the maximum amount of time between filings and re-requests.

Italy might see it as a "victory" for their legal system to convict her but never actually request her extradition. They let the guy walk out of the courtroom, and I don't think he's been rounded up.

I thought the nabbed him close to the border earlier today?

Also I don't think Italy extradites to the US, I don't know why it would go the other way.

#grosslyuninformedaboutthis

Extradition treaties are mutual.

US/Italy Treaty

I've just seen a documentary on this going over the cases for the defence and prosecution. It was pretty balanced but boy is this case aggravating. If I'm honest, when I first heard about this case, I thought Amanda Knox was probably guilty along with the two guys but, I really can't see the prosecution's 'sex games gone wrong' theory. Usually when you see a case like this the more you learn the more you can 'see' what happened through all the conflicting statements but this case just gets more and more confusing.

I don't think it's fair to condemn them as guilty but it's also dangerous to assume she's completely innocent. Amanda attempted to set up an innocent black bartender by saying he was there that night and it was only when someone else gave him an alibi that he was released. The pair's stories have the ring of failed alibi's rather than the truth about them.

The closest I can get to something that makes sense is that the Italian boyfriend killed Meredith Kercher and she helped him clean it up.

I'd have to say, I agree with Higgledy. Everytime I look into the case I find holes in all the theories put forward too defend Knox. For example, she claimed that she was coerced into naming Patrick Lumumba and that the interview was never recorded. It's certainly seems both claims don't stand up. I will concede that the investigation appears that it was badly run but there are a lot of facts that we do know that Knox has not really provided credible answers to.

Also, can we stop with the line that the Italian legal system is by default terrible. I can point to high profile cases in the US that don't exactly cover it in glory without resorting to claiming that the entire system is corrupt.

And stop thinking there is some institutional anti-Americanism in Italy as there really isn't. I actually fail to see why there even would be.

Axon wrote:

Also, can we stop with the line that the Italian legal system is by default terrible. I can point to high profile cases in the US that don't exactly cover it in glory without resorting to claiming that the entire system is corrupt.

Well there are gross miscarriages of justice in all legal systems but Transparency International have rated the italian legal system either at the bottom or among the most corrupt legal systems in the european union.

DanB wrote:
Axon wrote:

Also, can we stop with the line that the Italian legal system is by default terrible. I can point to high profile cases in the US that don't exactly cover it in glory without resorting to claiming that the entire system is corrupt.

Well there are gross miscarriages of justice in all legal systems but Transparency International have rated the italian legal system either at the bottom or among the most corrupt legal systems in the european union.

That is indeed a fair point. However, Transparency International poor rating is based upon the legal system lack of independence from the executive. Who knows, there may well have been political pressure applied to get a conviction (again wouldn't be the first time in a Western government) but people need to either provide some detail on even why that would be done as opposed to the general accusation that they are all corrupt.

Also, there are no higher courts for Knox than the Italian Supreme Court. I meant to correct the misconception earlier. The only EU court is the ECJ, and that covers only EU mandated laws. Criminal trials aren't covered. The other people are thinking of is the ECHR (which isn't a EU court but the EU recognises) and that only adjudicates on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if Knox was a citizen covered by the court, you cannot appeal criminal cases to it.

I notice that Wikipedia even warns readers not to confuse both courts. I understand the confusion. Plenty of Europeans have a terrible understanding of them as well.

Axon wrote:

Also, there are no higher courts for Knox than the Italian Supreme Court. I meant to correct the misconception earlier. The only EU court is the ECJ, and that covers only EU mandated laws. Criminal trials aren't covered. The other people are thinking of is the ECHR (which isn't a EU court but the EU recognises) and that only adjudicates on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if Knox was a citizen covered by the court, you cannot appeal criminal cases to it.

well you could appeal to the ECHR if you felt you could demonstrate that the process of her trial, the investigation or her detention contravened one or more of articles 5 through 7 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

Demosthenes wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
onewild wrote:

Also lets be honest, is any American government/justice system going to really let the pretty middle class white girl be taken aboard?

Your cynicism is warranted, but at this point, regardless of who was pronounced guilty by an Italian play-court, the American attitude would be, "You want her? Come and get her."

Well, if she is as insanely homicidal as the Italian courts made her sound then I'd say all we have to do is wait a while to see if she was innocent or not. That kinda' crazy isn't a one off deal. After you've shot a man in Reno just to watch him die you don't normally cross "killed someone" off your list of things to do.

Ah, yes... The "Zimmerman Effect".

She's been back in the US with nary a problem for... how long?

DanB wrote:
Axon wrote:

Also, there are no higher courts for Knox than the Italian Supreme Court. I meant to correct the misconception earlier. The only EU court is the ECJ, and that covers only EU mandated laws. Criminal trials aren't covered. The other people are thinking of is the ECHR (which isn't a EU court but the EU recognises) and that only adjudicates on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if Knox was a citizen covered by the court, you cannot appeal criminal cases to it.

well you could appeal to the ECHR if you felt you could demonstrate that the process of her trial, the investigation or her detention contravened one or more of articles 5 through 7 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

Excellent point. Hadn't thought of that.

Axon wrote:
DanB wrote:
Axon wrote:

Also, there are no higher courts for Knox than the Italian Supreme Court. I meant to correct the misconception earlier. The only EU court is the ECJ, and that covers only EU mandated laws. Criminal trials aren't covered. The other people are thinking of is the ECHR (which isn't a EU court but the EU recognises) and that only adjudicates on breaches of the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if Knox was a citizen covered by the court, you cannot appeal criminal cases to it.

well you could appeal to the ECHR if you felt you could demonstrate that the process of her trial, the investigation or her detention contravened one or more of articles 5 through 7 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

Excellent point. Hadn't thought of that.

I guess the issue is that maybe you could get a trial anulled due to some human rights "technicality" but, as you say, that doesn't contravene a state's authority to bring and prosecute a fair criminal trial. So she might well still have to face a trial for the crime even if they invalidated the previous criminal proceedings.

Robear wrote:

Ah, yes... The "Zimmerman Effect".

She's been back in the US with nary a problem for... how long?

I totally need to use that in casual conversation now.

Can she leave the country now ever? Wouldn't pretty much any EU nation stop her at Passport control and hand her over?

OR

Robear wrote:

Ah, yes... The "Zimmerman Effect".

She's been back in the US with nary a problem for... how long?

Not all murders are the start of a cereal killer spree. Especially if the circumstances, other people involved, who may have been instigators, are no longer present.