MLB 2009 Playoffs Catch-All

Oh no, they say he's got to go. Godzilla!

Hey. look at that!
Cue payroll, free agency, and "skankee" arguments while I enjoy another championship.

Now if I can just figure out a way to fool the wife into thinking I'm working, fool work into thinking I'm home, and head to the city to join in on the parade down the canyon of heroes tomorrow...

MaxShrek wrote:
Hey. look at that!
Cue payroll, free agency, and "skankee" arguments while I enjoy another championship.

Congratulations to the Yankees on yet another World Series. I'm not much of a baseball fan but I can easily understand why so many people hate them. When you go out and basically buy and all star team every year shouldn't you win the championship? Doesn't it make the victory feel a little bit empty?

I'm a Bills fan and I've been waiting 30 years for them to win a Super Bowl. I'll probably have to wait another 30. We got close but we all know how that ended. If something were to change in the NFL and Ralph Wilson went out and spent 3-4 times more than every other team and they won I'd feel like we cheated.

There's something inherently wrong with you being able to pick the best players throughout the league, pay them 2-3 times more than anyone else and then celebrate your dominance over other teams.

Grats the Yankees.. they definitely outplayed the Phils and deserve yet another championship.

I did LOL at the half empty section behind homeplate the entire game.. so while I respect the team.. its hard to say the fans deserve it when they can't even show up for the clinching game of a World Series.

Hmm.

Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Gardner, Chamberlain, Hughes, Robertson, Coke, Cervelli, Pena = all homegrown. 4 of the 8 starting position players are all homegrown talent. Their closer (Rivera) and Pettitte are homegrown. That's more than the Twins. Boston. Detroit.

But yeah, they buy their championships.

TheGameguru wrote:
Grats the Yankees.. they definitely outplayed the Phils and deserve yet another championship.

I did LOL at the half empty section behind homeplate the entire game.. so while I respect the team.. its hard to say the fans deserve it when they can't even show up for the clinching game of a World Series.

You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Man, you guys are really bringing it on! All I hear is sour grapes.

IMAGE(http://fseven.net/images/forumpics/boohoo.jpg)

FSeven wrote:
Hmm.

Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Gardner, Chamberlain, Hughes, Robertson, Coke, Cervelli, Pena = all homegrown. 4 of the 8 starting position players are all homegrown talent. Their closer (Rivera) and Pettitte are homegrown. That's more than the Twins. Boston. Detroit.

But yeah, they buy their championships. :P

I didn't know that. If that's the case though, why do i keep hearing stories about how their big name players are payed more than entire teams?

Bear wrote:
FSeven wrote:
Hmm.

Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Gardner, Chamberlain, Hughes, Robertson, Coke, Cervelli, Pena = all homegrown. 4 of the 8 starting position players are all homegrown talent. Their closer (Rivera) and Pettitte are homegrown. That's more than the Twins. Boston. Detroit.

But yeah, they buy their championships. :P

I didn't know that. If that's the case though, why do i keep hearing stories about how their big name players are payed more than entire teams?

Interesting how teams with less money can't keep their homegrown players as long, or even invest in their monior league to the same scales.

That said, the best team won the World Series.

Why not spend the money on the team after you earned the money from the team and the stadium? That's more than the Pirates and Reds owners can say, putting the revenue sharing in their pockets.

MaxShrek wrote:
Why not spend the money on the team after you earned the money from the team and the stadium? That's more than the Pirates and Reds owners can say, putting the revenue sharing in their pockets.

It's the TV dollars that create the gulf. Until MLB forces teams to share all TV revenue equally, as they do in the NFL, there is no point in lower tier teams investing that extra money in the team. They won't get a fair return on their investment, so teams hold on to the cash. It may not be cool, and it is fun for the Yankee fans to point that out, but it has no bearing on the actual financial problem facing baseball.

Becasue of the gross disparity of income generated by local TV markets, baseball championships will continue to mean less than they do in the other major sports. Not that they mean all that much anyway.

You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok

MaxShrek wrote:
Why not spend the money on the team after you earned the money from the team and the stadium? That's more than the Pirates and Reds owners can say, putting the revenue sharing in their pockets.

Exactly.

From here.

The Marlins won the World Series title in 2003 with a team that had a unique combination of great young players and talented veterans that included Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, Mike Lowell and Ivan Rodriguez. That year, the team had a respectable $54 million payroll. Rather than retain those players, however, the Marlins traded away Penny and Beckett for much cheaper players, and lost Mike Lowell and Pudge Rodriguez to free agency.

By shedding these stars, Florida was able to cut its payroll down to $14.9 million in 2006, which is less than 20% of the Major League average of $78 million. It was also less than half of the $31 million in revenue sharing dollars the team received that year. So, rather than using the money to retain or attract on-field talent, the owners took it as part of the team's MLB best $43 million profit in 2006.

Sorry, no sympathy for owners that don't reinvest in their teams.

According to Forbes:

Five years ago, 16 teams lost money. In 2007 only three teams--Blue Jays ($1.8 million), Red Sox ($19.1 million), Yankees ($47.3 million)--posted an operating loss. But even those losses are misleading. For the owners of the Yankees and Red Sox, the huge dividends they get from their unconsolidated cable networks more than make up for the teams' losses. Meanwhile Rogers Communications (nyse: RCI - news - people ), which owns the Blue Jays, their stadium and the cable channel that televises its games, derives huge benefits from owning the Blue Jays not reflected on its team's P&L statement.

On the field, the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies were the Cinderella stories last season. But the blueprint for how to operate a franchise in a small market is the Cleveland Indians, who have shown that a team can win on and off the field if they invest wisely in player development and have good chemistry on the diamond. In 2006, the Indians won only 78 games. Last season, not only did the Tribe eliminate the Yankees in the playoffs but they generated $29 million in operating income, third-most in the American League.

So apart from the Jays, Sox, and Yankees, every other team actually makes a profit on their baseball operations. The Yankees (YES network), Sox (NESN), and Blue Jays make their profits through their cable networks.

People love to whine about the Yankees and money but when you actually look deeper, you find out that it's not about market size. It's about the owners of teams. It's about reinvesting in your team. I have no sympathy for teams that are turning profits but not reinvesting that money.

I only have sympathy for their fans. I am truly grateful to be a fan of a team whose owner pours money back into his team to field the best team possible, even if it means the team posts an operating loss.

Yay! Some team won the World Series! Baseball is over until April/May. Hallelujah!

TheGameguru wrote:
You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok :)

So a true fan to you is defined through how much they're willing to spend on a seat?

You do realize that some of those seats in Game 6 were going for 25-50 thousand dollars right?

C'mon, cut the silliness. Be real.

Jayhawker wrote:
MaxShrek wrote:
Why not spend the money on the team after you earned the money from the team and the stadium? That's more than the Pirates and Reds owners can say, putting the revenue sharing in their pockets.

It's the TV dollars that create the gulf. Until MLB forces teams to share all TV revenue equally, as they do in the NFL, there is no point in lower tier teams investing that extra money in the team. They won't get a fair return on their investment, so teams hold on to the cash. It may not be cool, and it is fun for the Yankee fans to point that out, but it has no bearing on the actual financial problem facing baseball.

Becasue of the gross disparity of income generated by local TV markets, baseball championships will continue to mean less than they do in the other major sports. Not that they mean all that much anyway.

I don't buy this line of reasoning. What's stopping ANY baseball team from doing the same thing? What's stopping them from pooling their resources with their local NFL team and creating their own cable channel and reaping the profits of that?

You can't blame the Sox, Jays, and Yankees for doing that because there is nothing preventing anyone else from doing it.

FSeven wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok :)

So a true fan to you is defined through how much they're willing to spend on a seat?

You do realize that some of those seats in Game 6 were going for 25-50 thousand dollars right?

C'mon, cut the silliness. Be real.

Someone should tell that to Hank.

Jayhawker wrote:
FSeven wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok :)

So a true fan to you is defined through how much they're willing to spend on a seat?

You do realize that some of those seats in Game 6 were going for 25-50 thousand dollars right?

C'mon, cut the silliness. Be real.

Someone should tell that to Hank.

The ticket prices were 500-1500. The owners of those seats were asking 25-50K. Don't you think it's their right, you know, as owners of those seats, to sell them for whatever some sucker is willing to pay?

Bear wrote:
FSeven wrote:
Hmm.

Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Gardner, Chamberlain, Hughes, Robertson, Coke, Cervelli, Pena = all homegrown. 4 of the 8 starting position players are all homegrown talent. Their closer (Rivera) and Pettitte are homegrown. That's more than the Twins. Boston. Detroit.

But yeah, they buy their championships. :P

I didn't know that. If that's the case though, why do i keep hearing stories about how their big name players are payed more than entire teams?

Because these are some of the signings they made the last two years:

Alex Rodriguez 3b - 10 years/$275M (2008-17)
C.C. Sabathia lhp - 7 years/$161M (2009-15)
Mark Teixeira 1b - 8 years/$180M (2009-16)
A.J. Burnett rhp - 5 years/$82.5M (2009-13)
Mariano Rivera rhp - 3 years/$45M (2008-10)
Jorge Posada c - 4 years/$52.4M (2008-11)

Their number one and two pitchers, and two best hitters were acquired by out spending other teams in the league. Even the "homegrowns" were free agents that were signed by outbidding every other team in the league.

All contenders spend in free agency and have a mix of homegrown and acquired talent. The Yankees resources just give them the advantage when it comes to free agency, posting fees, and signing bonuses for latin players who don't come through the draft.

Brian Cashman and the Yankees management do a masterful job of taking that advantage and maintaining a consistently competitive playoff team, which is difficult no matter how much you spend.

AJ Burnett.. hehehehee... that f*cker is stealing cash. The Reds definitely were and I think the Marlins are using some revenue sharing to pay for/pay off their stadiums, which according to the "talkies" is not allowed.

FSeven wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
FSeven wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok :)

So a true fan to you is defined through how much they're willing to spend on a seat?

You do realize that some of those seats in Game 6 were going for 25-50 thousand dollars right?

C'mon, cut the silliness. Be real.

Someone should tell that to Hank.

The ticket prices were 500-1500. The owners of those seats were asking 25-50K. Don't you think it's their right, you know, as owners of those seats, to sell them for whatever some sucker is willing to pay?

Real fans are priced out of the playoffs in all sports. Regular season attendance is a better indication of fan loyalty.

Bear wrote:
FSeven wrote:
Hmm.

Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Gardner, Chamberlain, Hughes, Robertson, Coke, Cervelli, Pena = all homegrown. 4 of the 8 starting position players are all homegrown talent. Their closer (Rivera) and Pettitte are homegrown. That's more than the Twins. Boston. Detroit.

But yeah, they buy their championships. :P

I didn't know that. If that's the case though, why do i keep hearing stories about how their big name players are payed more than entire teams?

Because they are paid more than entire teams. Last year, there were two players from the 2008 Yankee squad (Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi) that made more money than the entire Florida Marlins 25-man roster and one player that came incredibly close to matching the Marlins payroll number all by himself (Derek Jeter).

(Though, in all fairness, that's just as much of an indictment of the Marlins for not putting money back into their team.)

This year, the Marlins payroll actually crept up into the mid-$30 million range, so nobody from the 2009 World Champions completely outstrips another team's entire roster, but there are plenty of big winners on the Yankees' $200 million roster:

Alex Rodriguez - $33,000,000.00
Derek Jeter - $21,600,000.00
Mark Teixeira - $20,625,000.00
A.J. Burnett - $16,500,000.00
C.C. Sabathia - $15,285,714.00
Mariano Rivera - $15,000,000.00
Jorge Posada - $13,100,000.00
Hideki Matsui - $13,000,000.00
Johnny Damon - $13,000,000.00
Andy Pettitte - $10,000,000.00*
[size=10]* Pettitte's base salary this year was $5.5, but will balloon to around $10 million this year due to incentives for innings pitched and days on the active roster, which have been met.[/size]

You might recognize the players highlighted in bold above from the previous list of "home-grown" players. If you combine the salaries of that "core" of four players, you get a total of $59.7 million alone; just to give you a context for what that dollar amount means in relation to overall team payrolls, take a look at the MLB teams that had less that $75 million on the books for 2009:

[font=Courier New]COLORADO $74,730,533
ARIZONA $72,475,000
CINCINNATI $71,858,500
MINNESOTA $67,899,267
TAMPA BAY $65,126,368
OAKLAND $61,896,066
WASHINGTON $61,455,049
PITTSBURGH $52,643,000
SAN DIEGO $42,746,653
FLORIDA $35,483,951[/font]

The reason that the Yankees have been able to keep those four "true Yankees" around for so long is because they're probably the only team that could afford to spend that kind of money to retain only four players.

FSeven has a good point that four out of the eight players in the starting lineup have come up through the Yankees farm system...and I don't think it's a coincidence that this year's championship came after the arrival of competent young players to compliment their well-paid core. But let's be real about the contributions of some of the other players on that list:

  • Wang was lit up like a Christmas tree (wow, nice sentence for Out of Context Theatre, huh?), ended up with a 9.64 ERA, and was left off of the post season roster.
  • Cervelli was the third catcher and, despite being included on the playoff roster, only saw two plate appearances in the playoffs.
  • Pena was a utility infielder that scratched out .287/ .317/.383 over 121 plate appearances and was left off of the post-season roster.

Meanwhile, free agent pickups from last off-season alone delivered 2/3rds of the Yankees postseason rotation (Sabathia, Burnett) and the team's leader in home runs, RBI, and OPS (Teixeira). All for a tidy sum of just over $50 million.

The Yankees are worthy champions - at times, they almost seemed like an all-time transcendent roster - and I congratulate them on their successes this year, but let's not confuse the path that they took to get there.

EDIT: Obviously, I should have been typing that one up a bit faster between the conference calls this morning, huh?

So with all of those numbers, how much did each team make in revenue and take in revenue sharing, and turn it around into paying for players?

MaxShrek wrote:
So with all of those numbers, how much did each team make in revenue and take in revenue sharing, and turn it around into paying for players?

The answers, in short, are "too much", "too much", and "not enough."

As much as I may personally dislike the notion that the Yankees can outspend teams to this degree, I can't fault them for it and, in fact, I do kind of respect them for it...because they are actually putting money back into their team.

The overall issue comes down with baseball itself, for providing a system with so many built-in advantages for teams with market advantages (such as the New York teams). Though it wouldn't have the same severity, you could make the same comparative argument against Boston vs. a small market city like Kansas City. But, somehow, I think baseball's okay with that dilemma, since tons of people are still paying absurd amounts of money to attend the games.

MaxShrek wrote:
So with all of those numbers, how much did each team make in revenue and take in revenue sharing, and turn it around into paying for players?

I think you're looking for this:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/...

Congrats to the Yankees.

I wish they had a salary cap, but they are taking best advantage of the rules MLB has in place.

That said, enjoy the offseason kids

IMAGE(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t22/Gumbie84/yankee_fans-705750.jpg)

Congrats to the yanks.

If I ran the Yankees, I'd make the same moves they have made (although I would never have fired Torre). The problem is the system. The Green Bay Packers compete with the New York Giants because the NFL distributes the TV money equally. All teams have other ways to maximize their revenue, but splitting up the TV money is what makes it a fair fight.

The Kansas City Royals have had a pretty good farm system, if you consider the players that are playing for other teams now. But they do not have the means to keep their players, so they are in a continual reload mode. The money they get from revenue sharing is not close to enough to offset the disparity in revenue.

Yankee fans get under the skin of the rest of us when they act like their franchise is so great just because of its smart business and baseball sense. We all know that TV revenue drives their success. If MLB were to take control of the TV rights of all the teams, and then divvied up the revenue equally, the Yankees would still be a successful franchise, but not nearly on the scale it has been.

FSeven wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
You do realize how much those seats cost, right?

Thats the excuse?? So I guess I'm right.. not true fans... whatever the excuse it looks pretty bad that on National TV during the World Series you can't sell out your stadium.

Note.. Phil's fans don't get off easy either.. we had WAY to many Yankees fans in our stadium so boo on the lame ass fans that sold their tickets no excuse for that either...unless you needed to money to save a dying family member.. I guess thats ok :)

So a true fan to you is defined through how much they're willing to spend on a seat?

You do realize that some of those seats in Game 6 were going for 25-50 thousand dollars right?

C'mon, cut the silliness. Be real.

Face value of that seat? that makes no sense.. or are you saying thats what it cost?

Anywho, reigning Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum busted for possession of pot. Does that count as a performance enhancing drug?