Ah, Japan.

One thing that seems to be missing from modern immigration discussions are the pains that private citizens of the same "caste" (for lack of a better word) used to take to bring them up to speed. For instance, the predominant makeup of Jews in the early 1900s in NYC was Western European, and they were educated and had already assimilated into the culture. When various and sundry wars started and NYC received a huge influx of uneducated, non-English-speaking Eastern European Jews, the general New Yorker's opinion of the general Jew started to change for the worse. The W. Eu. Jews realized this and took it upon themselves to properly assimilate the newcomers into the culture. The same thing happened at the end of the Civil War; northern blacks were well-educated and well-integrated into the society, but with a massive influx of completely uneducated freedmen, they had to work overtime simply to protect their own reputation.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see this happening very much anymore. I live in a very hispanic part of town, and I get along well with my neighbors; but very few of them (I can only think of one off-hand) makes any effort at assimilating their newly-arrived brethren. Quite the opposite, when you see things like the Reconquista movement.

Minarchist wrote:

One thing that seems to be missing from modern immigration discussions are the pains that private citizens of the same "caste" (for lack of a better word) used to take to bring them up to speed. For instance, the predominant makeup of Jews in the early 1900s in NYC was Western European, and they were educated and had already assimilated into the culture. When various and sundry wars started and NYC received a huge influx of uneducated, non-English-speaking Eastern European Jews, the general New Yorker's opinion of the general Jew started to change for the worse. The W. Eu. Jews realized this and took it upon themselves to properly assimilate the newcomers into the culture. The same thing happened at the end of the Civil War; northern blacks were well-educated and well-integrated into the society, but with a massive influx of completely uneducated freedmen, they had to work overtime simply to protect their own reputation.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see this happening very much anymore. I live in a very hispanic part of town, and I get along well with my neighbors; but very few of them (I can only think of one off-hand) makes any effort at assimilating their newly-arrived brethren. Quite the opposite, when you see things like the Reconquista movement.

Probably the best historical parallel for the wave of Latin American immigration is that of Italian immigration in the early to mid 1900's.

Folks complained mightily that they were not anglo enough, that they didn't make an effort to learn English, that they were forming their own communities and taking American jobs. Heck, folks even posited that they would change the demographic makeup of the US from a predominantly Protestant country to one "beholden to the papacy". The delicious irony in this was that it actually got Southern Protestants to champion the separation of church and state!

A hundred years later, we find that all of those fears were completely unfounded. It's hard to find a 3rd generation Italian American that can speak more than "pasta", "canolli", and "bada bing" unless he saw it on the Sopranos.

It's hard to find ANY 3rd generation immigrant who still speaks his ancestors' language.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

It's hard to find ANY 3rd generation immigrant who still speaks his ancestors' language.

Heck, I came here when I was two and my wife thinks I'm worthless because the white next door neighbor speaks better Korean than I do.

Paleocon wrote:

My buddy the East Tennessee dairy farmer put it this way:

"I hire Mexicans because they show up on time, work a full day, and don't use meth or show up drunk. My combine tractor cost me half a million dollars. I so much as have my cows run up an onion patch one day and I've lost $50,000. It's hard work that demands attention to detail. Ain't no American wants to work this hard."

Does he pay them appropriate to the value they provide, or does he rip them off by underpaying them?

Supply and demand. It's not "no American wants to work this hard", it's "no American wants to work this hard for less pay than they could get for a less arduous job".

Seth wrote:

On topic -- last I checked the Japanese didn't have reproductions numbers high enough to sustain their population. Little Raven's assumption that they're close to having a fully functional robot ready to go seems like the only logical explanation for this.

Paleocon wrote:

During the year I spent in Tokyo, it was noted by all the expats I hung out with that the hottest chickas in the salsa clubs were Japanese-Brazillians.

This robot will need to wear many hats, it seems. Hard manual labour by day, sexy dancing and reproduction by night!

Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

My buddy the East Tennessee dairy farmer put it this way:

"I hire Mexicans because they show up on time, work a full day, and don't use meth or show up drunk. My combine tractor cost me half a million dollars. I so much as have my cows run up an onion patch one day and I've lost $50,000. It's hard work that demands attention to detail. Ain't no American wants to work this hard."

Does he pay them appropriate to the value they provide, or does he rip them off by underpaying them?

Supply and demand. It's not "no American wants to work this hard", it's "no American wants to work this hard for less pay than they could get for a less arduous job". ;)

WRONG! He pays them $25/hour (a VERY professional wage in a place like East Tennessee btw). He trusts these folks with millions of dollars worth of cattle and equipment. His operation is fully automated and the skill demands on his workforce are VERY high. This is not a boon work/sharecropper operation.

He just can't find Americans who want to put in the time, effort, and commitment to learn the trade, do the work, or be responsible. And it isn't like he hasn't tried. He tries to take advantage of state and local programs to hire from local high schools or community colleges. The candidates just straight up suck.

edit: Another delicious irony is that each of these Mexicans he hires has to have a SSN. That means they pay into the tax base to support the local methheads who just straight up won't work despite the fact that they won't ever draw from the benefits.

Minarchist wrote:

I could be wrong, but I just don't see this happening very much anymore. I live in a very hispanic part of town, and I get along well with my neighbors; but very few of them (I can only think of one off-hand) makes any effort at assimilating their newly-arrived brethren. Quite the opposite, when you see things like the Reconquista movement.

You also have more economic immigrants today, especially since they only have to cross a line, not an ocean, to get into America. They're coming here because they can make a lot more money than they could in their home country. Their goal isn't to stay and assimilate, it's to earn lots of money and then return home.

As Paleocon pointed out, every wave of immigrants has been castigated by Americans as lazy, dirty, poor, uneducated, drunkards, thieves, you name it. Had you lived in the mid-1800s, you would have read newspaper article after newspaper article about how the Irish were dragging this country down. Fast forward a couple of years and the Irish made up the backbone of many cities' police and fire departments.

The only way this wave of immigrants is different is that they look different than the European immigrants we've been used to getting. That's what makes the current immigration debate so heated. There's definitely an underlying element of racism to it--some people are very uncomfortable that more non-whites are coming to America.

Paleocon wrote:

A hundred years later, we find that all of those fears were completely unfounded. It's hard to find a 3rd generation Italian American that can speak more than "pasta", "canolli", and "bada bing" unless he saw it on the Sopranos.

This is very true. Beyond the family recipes and anecdotes, Italian American is more of an image than a culture. Being from a family that's lived in the Bay Area since it was Mexico, I speak Spanish rather than Italian.

Truth is, I don't understand why we as Americans might feel so threatened by an illegal immigrant's presence and culture rather than how their exploitation undermines the labor protections fought for by our parents and grandparents.

GioClark wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

A hundred years later, we find that all of those fears were completely unfounded. It's hard to find a 3rd generation Italian American that can speak more than "pasta", "canolli", and "bada bing" unless he saw it on the Sopranos.

This is very true. Beyond the family recipes and anecdotes, Italian American is more of an image than a culture. Being from a family that's lived in the Bay Area since it was Mexico, I speak Spanish rather than Italian.

Truth is, I don't understand why we as Americans might feel so threatened by an illegal immigrant's presence and culture rather than how their exploitation undermines the labor protections fought for by our parents and grandparents.

Another bit of delicous irony. Our immigrant ancestors fought against nativists for labor protections so that their decendants could deny further generations of immigrants those same protections!

Who would have thought the fastest way up a ladder involved destroying the rungs below you?

Coincidentally, Pandora.com has served me with Alphaville's Big In Japan right now.

Paleocon wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

My buddy the East Tennessee dairy farmer put it this way:

"I hire Mexicans because they show up on time, work a full day, and don't use meth or show up drunk. My combine tractor cost me half a million dollars. I so much as have my cows run up an onion patch one day and I've lost $50,000. It's hard work that demands attention to detail. Ain't no American wants to work this hard."

Does he pay them appropriate to the value they provide, or does he rip them off by underpaying them?

Supply and demand. It's not "no American wants to work this hard", it's "no American wants to work this hard for less pay than they could get for a less arduous job". ;)

WRONG! He pays them $25/hour (a VERY professional wage in a place like East Tennessee btw). He trusts these folks with millions of dollars worth of cattle and equipment. His operation is fully automated and the skill demands on his workforce are VERY high. This is not a boon work/sharecropper operation.

He just can't find Americans who want to put in the time, effort, and commitment to learn the trade, do the work, or be responsible. And it isn't like he hasn't tried. He tries to take advantage of state and local programs to hire from local high schools or community colleges. The candidates just straight up suck.

Wow. Color me impressed, I'm very happy to be wrong here.

Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

My buddy the East Tennessee dairy farmer put it this way:

"I hire Mexicans because they show up on time, work a full day, and don't use meth or show up drunk. My combine tractor cost me half a million dollars. I so much as have my cows run up an onion patch one day and I've lost $50,000. It's hard work that demands attention to detail. Ain't no American wants to work this hard."

Does he pay them appropriate to the value they provide, or does he rip them off by underpaying them?

Supply and demand. It's not "no American wants to work this hard", it's "no American wants to work this hard for less pay than they could get for a less arduous job". ;)

WRONG! He pays them $25/hour (a VERY professional wage in a place like East Tennessee btw). He trusts these folks with millions of dollars worth of cattle and equipment. His operation is fully automated and the skill demands on his workforce are VERY high. This is not a boon work/sharecropper operation.

He just can't find Americans who want to put in the time, effort, and commitment to learn the trade, do the work, or be responsible. And it isn't like he hasn't tried. He tries to take advantage of state and local programs to hire from local high schools or community colleges. The candidates just straight up suck.

Wow. Color me impressed, I'm very happy to be wrong here. :)

You'll be further impressed to know that he is a lifelong Republican who is active in local politics (school board and department of taxation and assessments) who is so disgusted with the mess the party has made of the nation and his life as of late that he's talking about dropping out.

There's a difference between cheap, unskilled labor and talented, educated labor. The difference is not as simple as country of origin. We have plenty of unskilled American idiots leeching off the system and plenty of immigrants making great discoveries and taking great strides for America. If we're afraid of some universal health care bogeyman the answer is not to kick out everyone we don't like, it's to make sure that legislation is implemented well or not at all.

To me, all this anti-immigration sentiment sounds a lot like, "I got in, so lock the gates."

It's easy to blame the immigrants for society's woes. We all know we'll never deport them all, and since it'll never happen it's easy to say that's the solution. Our problems are with our labor and immigration systems, not with the immigrants themselves.

I frequently hear those on the right complain that immigrants get free health care but the research I've done shows that - surprise surprise - there's more to it than that. If someone hobbles into the emergency room gushing blood, they are going to get health care till they're no longer at immediate risk of death. If it turns out they can't pay for it after the fact, I suppose we do eat that loss. However, preventing someone from bleeding out all over your floor even if they're poor is different from free health care. Illegal immigrants do get free health care... when they've been detained by Customs. This is akin to complaining that prisoners live and eat rent-free. There's an argument to be made here, but again it is not the argument that is being made.

It is a problem when emergency rooms are clogged with people who cannot pay and are not citizens but it's hard to blame those people for not sucking it up and dying out of consideration to the US taxpayer.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Coincidentally, Pandora.com has served me with Alphaville's Big In Japan right now.

xenophobia is big in Japan.

Just ask my great uncle's body. He was forced to work in Tokyo during the occupation of Korea. In the aftermath of the Tokyo Earthquake, local officials, eager to shift blame for shoddy construction and bad urban planning, blamed the resultant fires on "Korean troublemakers". He was one of the many random Korean men who were rounded up and hanged in order to appease the crowd.

Paleocon wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Coincidentally, Pandora.com has served me with Alphaville's Big In Japan right now.

xenophobia is big in Japan.

Just ask my great uncle's body. He was forced to work in Tokyo during the occupation of Korea. In the aftermath of the Tokyo Earthquake, local officials, eager to shift blame for shoddy construction and bad urban planning, blamed the resultant fires on "Korean troublemakers". He was one of the many random Korean men who were rounded up and hanged in order to appease the crowd.

Xenophobia has always been big in Japan. It's big in China and Taiwan from my experience as well.

Paleo and OG, I wasn't trying to insinuate that all immigrants are uneducated idiots that need to go back to where they came from. Like Paleo, my experience with them is that they work much harder than the "native" Americans whose jobs their taking (from working alongside them cutting tobacco in high school, or the work done on my house). I would put immigration as a much smaller problem than fat, lazy Americans leeching off of everyone else. But this:

Their goal isn't to stay and assimilate, it's to earn lots of money and then return home.

is a big part of the problem, I think. We have two types of immigrants in our neighborhood, those who brought their families, or are saving up to do so, and those that are just here to work and head back after a while. The former are great; wonderful neighbors and friends. The latter...we've had problems with (these are also the ones that make illegal aliens' crime rates so high). The rise of the latter is part of what makes this more complicated than any earlier immigration policy. These are the types I'm saying need to be assimilated (if they'd ever agree to do so) if we're ever to move beyond this debate. But that's the rub; the former category, instead of working hard to do so (as in earlier times), just wants the latter to go back home. They see them as making no effort, due to their transient nature, and don't think they have a solution to the problem.

As to this:

The only way this wave of immigrants is different is that they look different than the European immigrants we've been used to getting. That's what makes the current immigration debate so heated. There's definitely an underlying element of racism to it--some people are very uncomfortable that more non-whites are coming to America.

I think you're missing the real issue. Living in the south my whole life, usually in areas with a high immigrant population, the only people from whom I've witnessed a racist attitudes are the aforementioned lazy bums who (for once) actually have competition for their jobs. They can't compete with that kind of work ethic, and are losing. It seems more of a defensive lashing-out than it does actual racism; but in my experience racism usually has a more root cause than "hey, they look diff'rent".

Badferret wrote:

(lots of good stuff)

I really must not have worded something correctly; most who have brought issue with my post haven't said much that I disagree with. Sorry.

While I don't doubt that the validity of your observations regarding your area, I am willing to bet that the Hispanic children of your community, or at least their children will come to self-identify as American, regardless of internal or external pressures. Yes, they will retain many cultural traditions, but they will add them to the cultural tapestry that is the United States.

I've observed it, yes. Usually within two generations around here (sometimes only one, depends on friends) they're just as fat and lazy as the rest of us.

Of course, the death of America's work ethic is a whole other issue...

Minarchist wrote:

One thing that seems to be missing from modern immigration discussions are the pains that private citizens of the same "caste" (for lack of a better word) used to take to bring them up to speed. For instance, the predominant makeup of Jews in the early 1900s in NYC was Western European, and they were educated and had already assimilated into the culture. When various and sundry wars started and NYC received a huge influx of uneducated, non-English-speaking Eastern European Jews, the general New Yorker's opinion of the general Jew started to change for the worse. The W. Eu. Jews realized this and took it upon themselves to properly assimilate the newcomers into the culture. The same thing happened at the end of the Civil War; northern blacks were well-educated and well-integrated into the society, but with a massive influx of completely uneducated freedmen, they had to work overtime simply to protect their own reputation.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see this happening very much anymore. I live in a very hispanic part of town, and I get along well with my neighbors; but very few of them (I can only think of one off-hand) makes any effort at assimilating their newly-arrived brethren. Quite the opposite, when you see things like the Reconquista movement.

The history of immigration would indicate that this is normal. Eastern and southern Europeans, the Irish, the Chinese all entered American society accompanied by a period of segregation that was both self imposed and forced upon them. The first generation immigrants often retained their native tongue and culture (witness the number of foreign language newspapers in Chicago at the end of the 19th Century) but subsequent generations sought to integrate fully into American society and tended to think of themselves as Americans. Someone mentioned race above, and non-Western European immigrants were largely viewed as non-white by white America (Italian immigrants were lynched in New Orleans for example), and the children of those immigrants actively campaigned to change that perception.

Examination of more modern immigrant groups reveals the same trends. There are many older Cubans who still only speak Spanish, but their children and grand children are fully "Americanized" (And not likely to return to Cuba in the event of regime change). The same goes for Vietnamese, Filipinos etc...

And finally the bit about various and sundry wars causing the initial boom of Eastern European immigration is not entirely correct. American industry actively "pulled" Eastern Europeans to America with the promise of good high paying jobs, only to use them in very low paying non skilled positions. Many immigrants never intended to remain in the States, but rather dreamed of earning enough to secure their family in the old country, and while a few were able to make the return home, most were not. Kind of sounds like the current process with illegal immigrants.

While I don't doubt that the validity of your observations regarding your area, I am willing to bet that the Hispanic children of your community, or at least their children will come to self-identify as American, regardless of internal or external pressures. Yes, they will retain many cultural traditions, but they will add them to the cultural tapestry that is the United States.

*Edit* Just wanted to acknowledge the more timely responses above that raised many of these points, thats what I get when I write a long post on both sides of my lunch hour.

Even the "make lotso money and leave" folks actually contribute more to the economy than you might think. Like I mentioned above, they do pay into the tax base in payroll and sales taxes. Since, as you mention, they are leaving they do not ever draw on those taxes paid for unemployment, retirement, or elderly healthcare benefits. The net contribution to local tax bases in rural areas like East Tennessee is actually pretty substantial.

Minarchist wrote:

Paleo and OG, I wasn't trying to insinuate that all immigrants are uneducated idiots that need to go back to where they came from. Like Paleo, my experience with them is that they work much harder than the "native" Americans whose jobs their taking (from working alongside them cutting tobacco in high school, or the work done on my house). I would put immigration as a much smaller problem than fat, lazy Americans leeching off of everyone else. But this:

Their goal isn't to stay and assimilate, it's to earn lots of money and then return home.

is a big part of the problem, I think. We have two types of immigrants in our neighborhood, those who brought their families, or are saving up to do so, and those that are just here to work and head back after a while. The former are great; wonderful neighbors and friends. The latter...we've had problems with (these are also the ones that make illegal aliens' crime rates so high). The rise of the latter is part of what makes this more complicated than any earlier immigration policy. These are the types I'm saying need to be assimilated (if they'd ever agree to do so) if we're ever to move beyond this debate. But that's the rub; the former category, instead of working hard to do so (as in earlier times), just wants the latter to go back home. They see them as making no effort, due to their transient nature, and don't think they have a solution to the problem.

Please back up your statement that the crime rate for illegals is extraordinarily high. All the references I've found for the supposed illegal immigrant crime wave comes from the likes of Lou Dobbs and anti-immigrant think tanks. In other words, completely biased sources. There really isn't any coherent crime statistics for Hispanics largely because not all police departments collect the ethnicity data let alone immigration status.

Living in LA, I've found that the status of immigrants is a heck of a lot more complicated than legal or illegal. I know families that have children who are citizens because they were born here, but have uncles who live with them who are illegal. It's not a cut and dry good immigrant vs. bad immigrant.

I don't really have an issue with someone who wants to move here, work their asses off to make money and then return home to live a better life. Those people aren't here to make trouble, they're here to work. They've already made a huge sacrifice moving far from their family and friends for a chance to make a better life.

Minarchist wrote:

As to this:

The only way this wave of immigrants is different is that they look different than the European immigrants we've been used to getting. That's what makes the current immigration debate so heated. There's definitely an underlying element of racism to it--some people are very uncomfortable that more non-whites are coming to America.

I think you're missing the real issue. Living in the south my whole life, usually in areas with a high immigrant population, the only people from whom I've witnessed a racist attitudes are the aforementioned lazy bums who (for once) actually have competition for their jobs. They can't compete with that kind of work ethic, and are losing. It seems more of a defensive lashing-out than it does actual racism; but in my experience racism usually has a more root cause than "hey, they look diff'rent".

During the Depression, whites lashed out at blacks for "taking their jobs away ". Blacks were the first to get fired and many cities had unwritten rules that no blacks would be hired as long as there was an unemployed white man. What's happening today is just a continuation of these racist attitudes (except today blacks are slightly more likely than whites to feel that Hispanics are "taking their jobs away").

Don't underestimate the fact that the immigrant stream to the US has gotten much browner and much yellower than it has been historically. We get more immigrants from Central America and Asia and many Americans are uncomfortable with that. It's no surprise that the membership of practically every anti-immigration group is as lilly white as the KKK.

And Paleocon's right. Illegal immigrants contribute more in taxes than they consume, to the tune of several tens of billions of dollars a year. The issue is that the majority of those taxes end up in federal coffers, not in the state coffers where the money is need to pay for local services, like education and healthcare.

Everything I wanted to say has been hit on (thanks Paleocon), but this idea that another human being is so foreign, they are labeled "illegal". Happenstance of birth should has little to no bearing on the freedom that an individual should be alloted. This (including what happening in Japan) is an age old survival response of people who discover that they aren't special or even necessary, they seek to crate an environment where is seems to be true.

Compared to other humans they are lazy and cantankerous, dehumanize the competition however, and the light is cast differently.

Ulairi wrote:

Xenophobia has always been big in Japan. It's big in China and Taiwan from my experience as well.

Don't forget Korea.

Don't forget Korea.

And the US. And Europe.

Gee, maybe there's a statement about human nature in there somewhere.

When I went to Disneyworld last year, I was on one line with a group of about 50 Brazilian girls on some kind of school or club trip. Every one of them was dressed in tiny shorts and an ultra-tight t-shirt. It was like the school chaperones intentional handed out t-shirts that were two-sizes to small ("Hey you, I can't see the outline of your firm young breasts- take a smaller shirt"). And even the ugly girls had a way of standing like they were models. Must be a wild culture to grow up in.

I approve of this thread derail and demand proof!

karmajay wrote:

I approve of this thread derail and demand proof! :)

Unfortunately my mother-in-law was holding the camera and wouldn't have understood my desire for pics.

Funkenpants wrote:
karmajay wrote:

I approve of this thread derail and demand proof! :)

Unfortunately my mother-in-law was holding the camera and wouldn't have understood my desire for pics.

Simple solution get in line, and ask for a photo of you in line at ride...

Speaking as a first generation Japanese-American I can tell you from experience that Japan still has a huge superiority complex concerning the rest of the world. Japan has always been very xenophobic, remember that they only opened up their borders to foreigners a little over 160 years ago. Before that they were just killed when they landed ashore.

There is still rampant racism going on, especially from people from the past generation. Hell, they still have people in black-face on tv (saw one last night). My grandfather doesn't like African-Americans, he somehow thinks their melanin will rub off on him. It's quite sad, really.

OG_Slinger wrote:

Please back up your statement that the crime rate for illegals is extraordinarily high.

To be fair, every single illegal immigrant has broken at least one law.

Is it Japan that was on the new like 2-3 years ago with a lot of 60 Minutes type show about some word a lot of stores put on their door to mean no outsiders?