Need advice on quality headphones

I'm looking to get a set of quality headphones - something along the lines of the Sennheiser HD-555's, or HD-595's. I'm open to other brands (Grado, Audio Technica, etc), but I'm currently leaning to the Senn's.

My intended uses will be ... as much as possible. I have an ipod Touch, I have a fairly high end PC with a Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music sound card. I have a home theater setup with a pretty decent amp, etc. Most of the use will be from the PC. I'd like to use the headphones for music, gaming, movies, the works. I do a lot of gaming.

I am not at all opposed to adding a reasonably priced headphone amp, if people think it's a must. I don't know much about audiophile stuff, but I know that there are factors like ohms, impedance, and various connection sizes. I also know about the 'burn-in' concept.

Any tips, suggestions or experiences would be most appreciated. Thanks!

A headphone amp isn't a must, if you buy cans that don't need one. But, generally, the really _good_ headphones all seem to be happiest with an amp. I think partially this is because you can usually trust most consumer electronics to put out a reasonable line-level signals, but amps in most devices are pretty wimpy. Even very good receivers can have pretty crummy headphone power levels.

I've been using a combination of Sennheiser HD600s and a Total Bithead for years now, and I've been very happy with this setup. I don't like the Bithead's digital output quite as much as the headphone out on my Squeezeboxes; when I'm doing serious headphoning I go from Squeezebox through the analog amp on the Bithead. This is the closest to pure musical bliss that I've ever been; the headphone out on the Squeezebox is outstanding, and running through the Bithead amp, it's just... wow. The Bithead's internal source is good, far better than most soundcards, but it has subtle harshness to it that's audible after extended listening. The Squeezebox's output, run through the same amplifier, just sounds better to me. The adjectives I use are 'liquid' and 'floaty' (as in, floating away in the music). I do realize that sounds stupid, but I just don't have better words for the experience. And the difference between the two is pretty subtle. It's subtle enough that it could be listener bias. But, FWIW, I wasn't really expecting any difference between the two sources, so the fact that I have a preference for the Burr-Browns in the Squeezebox might not just be me.

I know Thin_J is using a different brand of headphones that he likes a lot, and he's heard the Senns, so pay attention to what he thinks. Not that many of us have experience with multiple flavors of headphone, because they're so expensive. I think his choice is Beyerdynamics of some kind... I'm thinking BT-885, but I could easily be misremembering. (We've had multiple headphone threads, so you could scare up and peruse one of them if he doesn't chime in here.) Stac is also considered excellent. Grados have the rep of being more bass-heavy and less comfortable to wear than Senns, but they're supposed to be worth listening to. In my snobby hauteur, I've come to think of Grados as an intermediate step to Senns, but there are certainly Grado owners who will hotly contest this idea.

Also, warning: you will probably be really disappointed with your iPod Touch's output once you learn what good music is supposed to sound like. The X-Fi's output is pretty good, particularly in 'bit-matched' mode, but the Touch isn't that great. The first-gen units are particularly bad. Don't calibrate your ear to that source. My first-gen iPhone is awful. Okay for listening in the car or on earbuds -- totally unsuited to full-attention music listening on good gear.

So, Malor covered part of my headphone collection. And I apologize in advance, I'm sure this is going to ramble a bit.

The ones I use most often for music and games are Beyerdynamic DT-770's. I have the 80 ohm version. I forget the impedance rating on the other version but it's much higher (250 ohm sounds right) and requires an amp to really get anything great out of. I think I mis-remembered the model name in one of our early threads and thought I had bought DT-880's, but I believe I went back and corrected it with an edit. Regardless, I have the 770's. They're great closed design headphones that produce pretty clean highs and very decent midrange. The one thing that can be polarizing to some people on this particular set is that they're heavy on the bass end of things. It's very punchy and clean, but it sound balance is definitely slanted toward the bass. You either like that or you don't. I do, so the 770's get most of my gaming time and some of my music listening too, depending.

For my Zune I carry three different sets of headphones depending on where I'm going and what I can carry, all from Sennheiser. I have a set of earbuds, I forget the model name just now, but they're very common and run about 50 bucks. I have a set of PX-100's that are awesome if there isn't a lot of background noise, and for true "screw the outside world I want to hear my music" listening I put on the HD-280 Pro's. At $99 the 280 Pro's are one of the best bargains in headphones. They're 64 ohm phones, so they're relatively easy to drive even with a portable source like an iPod (or my zune) and they block more outside noise than any other pair of headphones I've ever put on, including a set of Bose with that bullsh*t active noise canceling system.

And lastly, for the all around set, I have a set of Sennheiser HD-595's. They're an open design, so they don't block much in the way of outside noise, but they're really just great headphones in so many other ways. The sound still has some of that Sennheiser smoothness to it, but they're a little brighter, mid tones are a little more defined, and they just have a much more open soundfield than any other set I own. When I watch movies at night and don't want to wake anyone up this is the set I use. I believe they have a lower impedance rating than all the other full size sets I have, something like 25 ohms, so they work great with mp3 players and other portable sources.

The one other comparison I can make between them all is comfort. The bonus to the 595's is that they're super lightweight compared to the other fullsize sets I have. I can put the 595's on my head and forget I'm wearing them. They're really comfortable. There is a little notch inside the earcups that can annoy people that have larger than average ears, but it doesn't affect most people. Something to think about though.

I love the 280 Pro's, but my ears and head tend to overheat a little when I wear them and I have a bigger noggin than some so they press more than a little too tight on my head. They sound great, but I end up with a headache if I wear them for more than about an hour. When they were the best pair of headphones I had I tended up taking a lot of ten or fifteen minute breaks when gaming to get my head comfortable again.

The DT-770's are in between. Not as light or easy to forget as the HD 595's, but without the clamping and force placed on your head by the 280 Pro's. The earcups have a really nice almost felt like covering on them that lets a little bit of air through, but still does a solid job of sealing on your head to keep out some outside noise. They can get a little warm to wear, but not nearly as much as the 280 Pro's.

So it works like this:

Portable sources: I use all my headphones for this on occasion, but the Sennheiser earbuds and 280 Pro's win most of the time. I tend not to lsiten to my Zune for more than an hour at a time anyway, so the 280's work great. I can turn on the zune and put on those headphones and just forget the outside world exists for a while. I've had people standing right next to me trying to get my attention and not be able to without poking me in the shoulder, and you don't have to turn up the volume too loud to get to that point. I usually listen to my Zune with the volume set at 4 or 5 when I wear those, which is about half what I need to hear all the detail in the same music on any of the other headphones I have.

For home listening Games always go to the DT-770's, Movies always go to the HD-595's, and music can go to either of the two depending on what I feel like listening to. Classical and instrumental type stuff is awesome on the 595's (though I won't lie... HD-600's or 650's destroy everything else out there for classical stuff as long as they're paired with an amp) but rock, metal, and all that fun stuff is pretty awesome in the DT-770's.

I don't regret buying any of the sets I have. The only pair that I wish I could redesign a little are the 280's, and I'm largely alone on that one. Most people don't have any comfort issue with them.

The only real holes for me are that I would like to have a set of Audiotechnicas, maybe the 700's or 900's, just because they sound a litle different than the other stuff I have, and I'd love to get a moderately high end amp like the Gilmore Lite and pair it with a set of Sennheiser HD 650's.

Of the popular audiophile brand headphones the only ones I actively dislike are Grado, and I've found the two sets of (admittedly lower end, as far as their price spectrum goes) AKG's I've heard to be very, very mediocre.

The problem with this is it's all subjective. For every person like me that dislikes Grado's there's another person that thinks they blow away everything else on the market.

I think Sennheiser is the best brand to start with. The signature of their headphones is a very smooth, clean sound. Highs are a little bit rolled off, but it makes for headphones that are very, very easy to listen to and enjoy.

A buddy of mine that does a lot of audio work still loves the HD-600's more than any other set of headphones he's ever touched.

I'll own a pair one day, maybe soon, maybe not, but I will have a pair.

For the PC, it is of great import that you ensure your sound card is of a high quality, and not prone to interference. When I built my computer all those years ago my great headphones made me realize how horrible my sound chip is. It can be fun to hear your hard disc spin up though.

My solution, over abandoning on board sound for a pricier sound card was to return the head set as defective, a fib. Just be warned, you may not like all of the noise you get in the speakers.

What about in-ear earbuds? I'm using some of these and I love them http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-CX3...

Of course, with the iPhone 3.0 supporting Bluetooth stereo, I'd like some Bluetooth in-ear earbuds, even if they're a little expensive I think it'd be worth it.

That's the pair of earbuds I have, and they're great (I'm listening to them now, in fact), but they don't hold up at all to a good pair of fullsize headphones, even if you look at full size headphones that run the same price as the earbuds.

I can't imagine using these things regularly for gaming and sitting at my PC.

Full size circumaural designs all the way for me when it comes to sitting at my desk or on my couch.

It's a real bummer that they discontinued the HD580s. They were about 90% as good as HD600s for about half the price.

headphone.com is a great resource for shopping. But they're starting to get into the cable mania crap. I see them saying that expensive cables can improve sound on the HD650s, which reduces my trust level for them very substantially. As long as cables are thick enough, there's nothing better than just plain old copper. Their claim to the contrary severely diminishes their credibility in my eyes.

To contrast with what Thin_J is saying, the HD600s are exceedingly comfortable. You can wear them all day. They have amazing response without being overweight in any particular area. Without an amp, they sound good; with an amp, they really sit up and sing. Give them a high quality source and you'll be amazed. As he says, they're incredibly good for classical music and other nuance-sensitive applications. They're 'open' headphones, meaning they offer no isolation from the outside world. They're also very large. This makes them rather unsuited for portable applications, where you tend to want small headphones with good isolation.

They have good bass for their size, but real bass isn't something you hear with your ears, it's something you feel with your body. Trying to get that full-body slam by cranking up headphones is a very good way to go deaf. I tend to think, because of that, that bassy headphones a bit dangerous, because they prompt you to turn the sound louder than you can really handle. You don't have the body cues that the music is too loud, and you can liquefy your poor ears.

King Gorilla: he's got an X-Fi, which isn't truly superb, but it's not horrible. He shouldn't be too upset with it, even on good cans.

Pyro: as far as I know, Bluetooth audio, even stereo, is pretty bad -- it forces an MP3 resample of all incoming sound. You really don't want compressed music compressed again if you can avoid it.

If you want earbuds, you might consider the Etymotics -- the Ety 4s and 6s are canal phones. They offer near-total isolation, extremely good sound, and excellent portability. But they'll make your ears a little sore if you put them in and take them out a lot, so they're generally best when you know you won't be disturbed for long periods.

Pyro: as far as I know, Bluetooth audio, even stereo, is pretty bad -- it forces an MP3 resample of all incoming sound. You really don't want compressed music compressed again if you can avoid it.

I was under the impression that Bluetooth headsets had advanced to the point of being lossless, like these From Sennheiser

As for the earbuds vs. headphones, surround ear headphones are just too bulky for me, and I like the sound isolation of the earbuds. It lets me keep my volume really, really low and not have to worry about headaches or damaging my hearing.

*edit* These might be like something I'm looking for

Malor wrote:

They have good bass for their size, but real bass isn't something you hear with your ears, it's something you feel with your body. Trying to get that full-body slam by cranking up headphones is a very good way to go deaf. I tend to think, because of that, that bassy headphones a bit dangerous, because they prompt you to turn the sound louder than you can really handle. You don't have the body cues that the music is too loud, and you can liquefy your poor ears.

There's some truth to this. A good rule for any set of headphones is to only listen loud enough to hear the music. Don't turn them up until you can't hear anything else at all. The idiots wearing earbuds or smaller earpad headphones that walk around with them so loud you can hear their music teen feet away? Those people will be deaf before they're 40.

I work with some poeple like this. We work around loud machinery so their solution is to just keep cranking the volume until they can hear all of their music. Some of them crank those stock iPod earbud headphones so loud you can hear bits of their music over the combined roar of a room full of electric motors and conveyor belts.

My solution is to put in earplugs and then wear my 280 Pro's. Sometimes the way sound works is pretty weird. Putting in earplugs normally filters out most noise from farther away much better than noise very close. Walking our high speed belt tunnel you can't hear yourself or anyone else talk without earplugs. Put in earplugs and you can carry on a conversation just fine. Same concept works with the earplugs + headphones combo. I can listen at lower volumes and get double the sound isolation from the outside noise. I tried it one day just to see how it would go, and was super impressed. I use the same idea whenever I go to the indoor shooting range by myself now.

As far as the DT-770's go in that category, like I said it's very punchy and clean bass, and since they're a closed design you hear it just fine at really very low volumes. There's no reason to ever turn those things up very loud at all.

I'm telling you.. the 280 Pro's have better sound isolation than every set of earbuds I've ever tried. I can hear more detail at lower volumes, especially in a noisy environment.

Someday I'll have to acquire a decibel meter and do some actual testing here at work.

Thin_J has awesome headphones and awesome firearms.

If he were a she, I'd stalk her. Or at least MySpace stalk her.

I wouldn't personally go with Bluetooth sound yet -- even headphone.com is telling you the sound's not exactly first-rate. Plus, that's a separate set of batteries to manage.

The Senns claim lossless transmission, but they're using a custom transmitter; I'm not sure normal Bluetooth will support that. I haven't heard anything about it.

Honestly I'm not an audiophile, and from what I read of their description made me think I'd be fine with it. I'd really like to try out a pair though.

Not that I really can spend $200 on it though

*Legion* wrote:

Thin_J has awesome headphones and awesome firearms.

If he were a she, I'd stalk her. Or at least MySpace stalk her.

That second category being what it is, internet stalking might be safer.

Wow, had family over today, and thus was busy, but I came back to a lot of great info here. A big thanks for all the replies.

Not sure where to start.

malor wrote:

he's got an X-Fi, which isn't truly superb, but it's not horrible. He shouldn't be too upset with it, even on good cans.

Are there better sound cards? Honestly, I don't know. I just assumed the X-Fi was pretty much the best current PC sound card.

I'm now researching a lot of other stuff like the HD-280 Pros, PX-100's, and others.

Not a lot has been said about headphone amps.

How necessary would they be for my setup (ipod touch and X-Fi on the PC)? The 280 Pros I take it would be ok without an amp, but what about the HD-595's?

Can you spend too little on an amp? too much?

Currently I favor higher quality audio over noise cancellation. I generally game and listen to music in a quiet bedroom, and there's no one around for me to bother so outgoing noise isn't an issue either.

Anyone know how the HD-555's compare to the 595's (at less than half the cost)?

Jeff-66 wrote:

Not a lot has been said about headphone amps.

How necessary would they be for my setup (ipod touch and X-Fi on the PC)? The 280 Pros I take it would be ok without an amp, but what about the HD-595's?

The 280 Pro's would actually benefit more from an amp than the 595's, but both will sound really good without one. The difference with the 280's is pretty noticeable. The 25 ohm rating on the 595's makes them easier to drive than pretty much any other set of headphones in that price range. The difference between using an amp and not on the 595's is really hard to notice except in specific situations. If you go with the 280's or the 595's, try going without an amp first if you feel like saving the cash, especially if you go for the 595's. Read the descriptions of both pairs on HeadRoom. They tend to overaccentuate the difference an amp makes, but they'll make a note if a pair is easy enough to drive to sound really great without one.

Jeff-66 wrote:

Can you spend too little on an amp? too much?

Amp pricing is all relative. You could spend too much in a way. There's no point in buying a $400 amp and pairing it with a $100 pair of headphones. For everything mentioned in this thread the Headroom amp that Malor mentioned would be perfect.

Jeff-66 wrote:

Currently I favor higher quality audio over noise cancellation. I generally game and listen to music in a quiet bedroom, and there's no one around for me to bother so outgoing noise isn't an issue either.

If you want high quality audio over noise cancellation then go for an open design. Research the 595's, some of the Audiotechnica cans (700's and 900's are good choices!), and anything else that catches your fancy. An open design will be cooler, probably lighter weight, and generally more comfortable to wear than most closed design cans.

Jeff-66 wrote:

Anyone know how the HD-555's compare to the 595's (at less than half the cost)?

On the 555's, I don't know. They're popular with gamers because of the price, but I've never heard them myself.

Thin_J wrote:

That second category being what it is, internet stalking might be safer.

True love has no fear.

Stalker love, too.

Thanks again Thin-J.

I did a lot of reading and the HD-595's just seem like the perfect fit for me. The comfort, the high-end audio, the low ohm rating (good for my equipment), and general amazing reviews - that's what I went with.

On shopping around, the first place I look is Amazon, as I'm an Amazon Prime member, but they are currently OOS, and are letting one of those cheesy 3rd parties handle the sale for the 595's (something like Bob's Stuff in his Garage), so I kept looking. When Amazon did have them, they were $195.

I checked out J&R (jr.com) and they had $199 crossed out a link to request a better price via email. I did that and it came back with $169.99 shipped. About to go for this, a friend says "if you call them, they'll often give you a better price". So what could it hurt. The sales rep says $169, same as the email. I hem-hawed and finally said I'll think about it. He says ... "ok, tell ya what... $159.99, that's as low as I can go".

So I just got the HD-595's for $160 shipped

Are there better sound cards? Honestly, I don't know. I just assumed the X-Fi was pretty much the best current PC sound card.

Eh, it'll be fine. In your budget range, you'll be happy. You'll get slightly improved headphone sound if you put the X-Fi in Audio Creation Mode and put it in 44.1Khz mode. If it's in native 48Khz mode, it forces a resample of all your music. It's not too awful at it, but it does impair the quality a little. The 44.1Khz output is pretty darn good.... though it disables most of the rest of the card's features.

If you ever buy an amp, which you don't need with the 595, if you get a Bithead or a Total Bithead from Headroom, it comes with a pretty good USB audio out. It's just stereo, and does nothing to the sound but play back whatever it's given, which is pretty much what you want. It's not the best DAC in the world, but it's far from the worst. It's what I typically use most of the time.

For now, just focus on getting your collection into a high-quality format; the 192Kish VBR from the LAME encoder is fine, or you can splurge and go higher bitrate, or even store your files losslessly. Given your purchase and your lack of need for an amp, your best bet now is raising the quality of your sources. Also, use a player that supports Kernel Streaming or ASIO. Both Winamp and Foobar will do this. If you drive your X-Fi with either of those two interfaces, you bypass the Windows Sound engine completely, which will usually improve the output. Combine that with Audio Creation Mode and 44.1Khz sampling, and it should be very pleasant.

If you want to get more upscale, the Asus Xonar series has very high sound quality, but they're inferior cards to use for gaming under XP. Under Vista, one of them might be worth considering, because the Creative X-Fi drivers for Vista are truly awful -- AND they charge you $10 for them. Asus also has a specific Xonar with just stereo outputs for "audiophiles", but I haven't heard that, and probably won't.

I mostly just use my Total Bithead. If I'm feeling extra-ambitious, I'll hook up the amp to the headphone out of the Squeezebox 2, which is just delicious. But I rarely bother with that. It's a hassle.

Good choice on the 595.
Thats what I'm using right now. I love the sound and they are extremely comfertable.

Since I just broke my Shure ec2 I need new in ear headphones.

I might pick up those Sein cx300.
Seem like a good price that I won't kick myself if I break them.

To be honest my Shures were too good at sound isolation. I don't like walking around the city oblivious to what was going on around me.

Malor, thanks for the advice on using the x-fi control panel. I didn't know that about 44.1khz. I do use winamp, and almost all of my music is 160+ bitrate, with most of it even at 192 to 320. I am starting to rework as much of the collection i can into FLAC format, as hard drive space is no issue at all for me (2 TB, most of which is free at the moment).

First pitch honors on the 595's will go to John Lee Hooker. Can't wait.

Secret Asian Man, do you use your 595's for gaming too? If so, what is your opinion on how they perform?

Question about burn-in ... is it necessary for the 595's, and if so, is it ok to cheat and just leave the headphones on playing all day when i'm at work?

As a somewhat related question what do you guys use for microphones for gaming along side these headphones? All the gaming headsets I've gotten have been cheap and gimmicky so I've been considering a good pair of headphones with a separate mic.

Renji wrote:

As a somewhat related question what do you guys use for microphones for gaming along side these headphones? All the gaming headsets I've gotten have been cheap and gimmicky so I've been considering a good pair of headphones with a separate mic.

Good question, and I've felt the same way about "gaming" headsets. I've been through several, and nothing closely resembling quality.

As for a mic, my brother uses a cheap $6 desktop mic for skype and it works just fine. I may try something like that.

I recently updated myself to the Legion method.

I bought a couple these labtec desktop mics.

Thin_J wrote:

I recently updated myself to the Legion method.

I bought a couple these labtec desktop mics.

Ordered. Thanks.

Thin_J wrote:

I recently updated myself to the Legion method.

Patent pending.

Ok, you have to download a plugin for Winamp to use either kernel streaming or ASIO. I found little effective difference between the two; for some reason, I preferred ASIO slightly, but I don't remember exactly why. Then you configure Winamp to use that as its output, and you'll have pretty darn good sound.

If you have a way of running an optical or coax S/PDIF to a receiver, I can give you a DTS-encoded 44.1Khz WAV file. If you can play that file in Winamp and have multichannel music come out of your receiver, you have a true lossless audio path. If it's just hash, something in the chain is messing with the sound.

Note that unless you have very good ears indeed, you're probably not going to hear any major difference going from 192Kish LAME-encoded VBR to FLAC. The big advantage to lossless formats is that they're well, lossless. You can generate any other lossy format from your lossless masters. If you decide you want Ogg or AAC, you can generate perfect encodes without touching your CDs. Ripping lossless means you never have to rip again... but it won't necessarily improve your audio quality much.

The Foobar 2000 player is a very good way to do mass conversions of files, if you can figure out the rather Byzantine interface. Sometime in the last couple of revisions, though, they seem to have screwed up playlist management, so I don't think it's a very good general-purpose player at the moment.

I use the Senn 595's, and have had great luck with them. They are great all purpose headphones, and have a lower impedance so an amp isn't as necessary as some other brands. Just my vote

edit: I also use the Senn earbuds linked to above. Best earbuds I've ever used, and they're cheap.

J&R has shipped

Got more questions. For those of you with an X-Fi, what are the best settings? Here's where I'm currently at:

* Winamp 5.5 with ASIO out

* Creative X-Fi in Audio Creation Mode, with 44.1khz sampling

* 2/2.1 speaker config

At first, ASIO sounded goofy, kind of a slight garble, but then I remembered to switch the X-Fi panel to AC mode and turn the sampling to 44.1. After I did that, it sounded frickin' great (on my main PC speakers, Logi x5300's)

For speaker config with my current headphones, I've tried 'Headphones' and 2/2.1. Headphone mode sounded a bit weaker. What do you guys use for this setting?

Should I always be in AC-mode with 44.1 for music? does anyone use Entertainment mode and CMSS-3D, Crystalizer, etc. I always enjoyed the X-Fi's Crystalizer - does AC mode disable all that stuff and just use a 'pure' feed ?

I have no problem going into the X-Fi panel and making a quick mode switch to go from a music session to movies, to gaming. I would love to hear what various settings (and player settings) people are using to get the best sound quality.

Right now, I'm pretty impressed with ASIO out and 44.1khz