Obama: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" going away

LobsterMobster wrote:

So long as they aren't raping people, have at it, I say.

Well, one problem is that is that sometimes you have to send soldiers off to die, knowing they're going to. Open relationships between soldiers would likely make that kind of decision much more difficult. And would you correctly prioritize saving half your squad over saving your loved one, in the split-second decisions in a firefight?

I think gays and women are fine in the military, as long as they can do the job. (Strongly agree with Reap on the women who aren't strong enough to be MPs -- that's stupid, political correctness replacing sense.) But open relationships are likely to be trouble.

It strikes me that it would change the dynamic of a military unit -- instead of being a unit, it would be much more a standard human society, but one that was exceptionally well-armed. Jealousy and rage aren't the best things around high-caliber weapons.

Robear wrote:

It's my firm belief that every single Marine in the Corps, male or female, including the Commandant, could load and fire an M2 unassisted. :-)

I know that's incorrect. During my last qual, there was a WM (woman Marine) SNCO who had trouble operating the slide of her M9. Don't even get me started on the amount of WMs that we saw falling out of runs.

LobsterMobster wrote:

If they can boink each other to get rid of some of the stress and relax for a moment, I don't see what the problem is.

You'd see the problem the first time a female got promoted faster than you because she was banging the guy who was handing out the pro/con scores. Or a woman getting held back because she refused to screw the guy doing the scoring. You can swap the sexes of the parties around all you want, you still end up with infighting and damaged morale. Bring pregnancies into it and it gets even worse.

Well, that's depressing Cannibal. Although it's my contention that the personnel system in the Pentagon really needs to be brought out of the 1920's. That's part of the problem too.

As of 15 minutes ago, the wretched policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" has officially ended and is nothing more than a shameful relic in American history.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

As of 15 minutes ago, the wretched policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" has officially ended and is nothing more than a shameful relic in American history.

Had I any champagne chilled, I'd be popping it now on principle. It's well past ABOUT DAMN TIME.

And, in a wonderful bit of news from the military itself...

Nearly 70 years after expelling Melvin Dwork for being gay, the Navy is changing his discharge from "undesirable" to "honorable" - marking what is believed to be the first time the Pentagon has taken such a step on behalf of a World War II veteran since the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell."

The Navy notified the 89-year-old former corpsman last month that he will now be eligible for the benefits he had long been denied, including medical care and a military burial.

A wonderful day for Dwork and the United States.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

And, in a wonderful bit of news from the military itself...

Nearly 70 years after expelling Melvin Dwork for being gay, the Navy is changing his discharge from "undesirable" to "honorable" - marking what is believed to be the first time the Pentagon has taken such a step on behalf of a World War II veteran since the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell."

The Navy notified the 89-year-old former corpsman last month that he will now be eligible for the benefits he had long been denied, including medical care and a military burial.

A wonderful day for Dwork and the United States.

About damned time.

Will this 89 year old man be able to seek reimbursement for his past medical bills.

Yonder wrote:

Will this 89 year old man be able to seek reimbursement for his past medical bills.

Doubtful.

Slaves didn't get reparations either.

If he's 89, he probably already has medical care from his working civilian life.

Paleocon wrote:
Phoenix Rev wrote:

And, in a wonderful bit of news from the military itself...

Nearly 70 years after expelling Melvin Dwork for being gay, the Navy is changing his discharge from "undesirable" to "honorable" - marking what is believed to be the first time the Pentagon has taken such a step on behalf of a World War II veteran since the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell."

The Navy notified the 89-year-old former corpsman last month that he will now be eligible for the benefits he had long been denied, including medical care and a military burial.

A wonderful day for Dwork and the United States.

About damned time.

Since having children - I have the oddest emotional responses to all sorts of things. I have to tell you, I teared up a bit reading that.

I'm just happy because it means we can go back to these days.

This is awesome.

Damn it got dusty in the office all of a sudden.

Yeah... that's a really powerful video.

What really came across to me was the attitude of the father. Very much a "Yeah, so what?" attitude. (Or at least that is what came across to me.)

IMAGE(http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/media/ALeqM5h-aKCnBBEOBOUy2gorNFiipLtu1A?docId=4571c82ea47a4afab8e8534e4e38f0e6&size=l)

Heartwarming story of the day. Bolded emphasis mine.

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (AP) — A Navy tradition caught up with the repeal of the U.S. military's "don't ask, don't tell" rule on Wednesday when two women sailors became the first to share the coveted "first kiss" on the pier after one of them returned from 80 days at sea.

Petty Officer 2nd Class Marissa Gaeta of Placerville, Calif., descended from the USS Oak Hill amphibious landing ship and shared a quick kiss in the rain with her partner, Petty Officer 3rd Class Citlalic Snell of Los Angeles. Gaeta, 23, wore her Navy dress uniform while Snell, 22, wore a black leather jacket, scarf and blue jeans. The crowd screamed and waved flags around them.

"It's something new, that's for sure," Gaeta told reporters after the kiss.

"It's nice to be able to be myself. It's been a long time coming."

There was little to differentiate this kiss from countless others when a Navy ship pulls into its home port following a deployment. Neither the Navy nor the couple tried to draw special attention to what was happening and many onlookers waiting for their loved ones to come off the ship were busy talking among themselves.

Snell smiled as she approached Gaeta and they briefly embraced as a small contingent of local television crews and photographers, who were unaware about what was going to happen until moments earlier, captured the scene.

"She told me about the first kiss a couple of days ago and I kind of freaked out — in a good way — but of course I'm a little nervous, you know. But I've been waiting since she left," Snell said.

David Bauer, the commanding officer of the USS Oak Hill, said that Gaeta and Snell's kiss would largely be a non-event and the crew's reaction upon learning who was selected to have the first kiss was positive.

"It's going to happen and the crew's going to enjoy it. We're going to move on and it won't overshadow the great things that this crew has accomplished over the past three months," Bauer said.

DADT ended, everyone did their jobs, the crew was fine, the crowd applauded, and the bigots had to be quiet and do their jobs. DADT, welcome to the scum-ridden floor of the dustbin of history.

Group of men approve of attractive lesbians kissing.

Move along; this isn't the change you're looking for.

That's simply terrific.

1Dgaf wrote:

Group of men approve of attractive lesbians kissing.

Move along; this isn't the change you're looking for.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught this. To this day I hold that the wave of gay marriage legalization really got under the skin of some Americans when news networks started showing men and old ladies sharing a kiss. That was when the real crazy started.

I don't care whether these are attractive lesbians or not. They can be photographed kissing and get their names in the paper without anyone's military career being put at risk. That's progress.

DSGamer wrote:
1Dgaf wrote:

Group of men approve of attractive lesbians kissing.

Move along; this isn't the change you're looking for.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught this. To this day I hold that the wave of gay marriage legalization really got under the skin of some Americans when news networks started showing men and old ladies sharing a kiss. That was when the real crazy started.

News flash guys: everyone *caught* it, just nobody else decided to *mention* it and instead focused on the positive.

To this day I hold that attractive lesbians kissing has done a heck of a lot to change minds not just about gay rights, but about freedom of sexuality among straights as well. As Tod from West Hollywood commented:

People, sit-ins, love-ins and kiss-ins were a very important part of the fight in the 60s and 70s to gain the rights you enjoy today. Don't discredit the activism is so quickly or easily. Without it your rights, our rights, may not have happened or as quickly. It's not stupid. It's a part of the overall action just like handcuffing yourself to the White House fence and diplomacy.

I'm still surprised that lesbian rights never got out ahead of gay rights, generally. Almost all scriptural references I've seen are explicitly about males. (Note: I always suspected that would be the way it would end up, with full rights for lesbian marriages followed by an equal-protection argument to extend those rights to others in the LGBTQ spectrum.)

FWIW, she wasn't chosen as some kind of symbolic gesture; there's a raffle you buy tickets for, and she spent $50 on $1 tickets and wound up winning. She wasn't dredged out as a symbol specifically, it just happened that way. And yes, obviously, attractive lesbians are more socially acceptable than two males (which is a whole other discussion), but this is still a big deal; people who opposed the repeal DADT said it would cause all sorts of problems to allow gays and lesbians to openly serve, and here's yet more evidence that that argument is a giant bucket of steaming crap.

It's the sailor kissing the nurse after Japan surrendered in WWII; sometimes moments need an iconic image to help define things. This is that image.

During the Prop. 8 campaign in California, the people hired as consultants for the No on 8 group stated over and over again that showing gay couples like Rubb Ed and me in advertisements would certainly spell doom for gay rights in California and Prop. 8 would pass. So, the commercials featured not your average gay and lesbian couple talking about what marriage means to them, but anyone but the gays talking about how Prop. 8 was terrible showed up in those TV and print ads while the gays were asked to hide under rocks.

Lo and behold, Prop. 8 passed, despite the consultants saying that keeping gays out of the ads would ensure that Prop. 8 would fail.

After the election, the consults were, rightly so, excoriated along with the No on 8 leaders who followed their advice. Of course, there is a possibility that the election could have been lost by even more than a 52-48 split, but Rubb Ed and I have both found that the more people have contact with just average gay folks, the more they become, at the very least, indifferent to gay marriage. That certainly has been the case with Rubb and myself and people we have encountered.

So, while the photo of the two attractive lesbians can be pooh-poohed as simply fodder, it is the exposure that changes minds.

I will take any exposure to further gay rights any day of the week.

I didn't know about the raffle.

"News flash guys: everyone *caught* it, just nobody else decided to *mention* it and instead focused on the positive."

My bold.

I can understand why people focus on the positive - and in personal matters, I can see that's a good thing - but in the politics of freedom, I think it's important that we mention the not-positive bits too. If we look how politicians frame arguments about the economy and job cuts, its always twisted to make things sound better than they are. If we only focused on the positive, we'd let TPTB get away with things.

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a holiday song entitled "it's the most wonderful time to be queer"

Paleocon wrote:

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a holiday song entitled "it's the most wonderful fabulous time to be queer"

wordsmythe wrote:

I'm still surprised that lesbian rights never got out ahead of gay rights, generally. Almost all scriptural references I've seen are explicitly about males. (Note: I always suspected that would be the way it would end up, with full rights for lesbian marriages followed by an equal-protection argument to extend those rights to others in the LGBTQ spectrum.)

Speaking of explicit scriptural references:

A panel of rabbis gave permission Wednesday for same-sex commitment ceremonies and ordination of gays within Conservative Judaism, a wrenching change for a movement that occupies the middle ground between orthodoxy and liberalism in Judaism...After years of discussion and two days of intense debate behind closed doors at a synagogue on Park Avenue, the law committee accepted three teshuvot, or answers, to the question of whether Jewish law allows homosexual sex. Two answers uphold the status quo, forbidding homosexuality. But a third answer allows same-sex ceremonies and ordination of gay men and lesbians, while maintaining a ban on anal sex. It argues that the verse in Leviticus saying "a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman" is unclear, but traditionally was understood to bar only one kind of sex between men. All other prohibitions were "added later on by the rabbis," Dorff told reporters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...

1Dgaf wrote:

I didn't know about the raffle.

"News flash guys: everyone *caught* it, just nobody else decided to *mention* it and instead focused on the positive."

My bold.

I can understand why people focus on the positive - and in personal matters, I can see that's a good thing - but in the politics of freedom, I think it's important that we mention the not-positive bits too. If we look how politicians frame arguments about the economy and job cuts, its always twisted to make things sound better than they are. If we only focused on the positive, we'd let TPTB get away with things.

I have a hard time believing the forces of evil will triumph because we did not harsh on the squee properly in P&C. The first thing I thought when I saw that image was kiss-ins, only this isn't a protest, this is sanctioned by the U.S. Military as part of a homecoming tradition for sailors. Wow.

The second thing that came to mind was:

My point, which you're running wild with, Cheeze, is this.

Yes, this is progress. But it's not as much progress as we need because if that was two dudes kissing the response is entirely different. That's all I'm saying. No need to read more into it than that.

This whole thing isn't going to happen in one swell foop. This was a start, gang. And I think all involved showed some class.

Yes, it was only a baby-step. But any other kind would be dangerous. It's the long slow changes that stick.