"How to Screw Up A War Story: The New York Times At Work"

And people say that my claims that humanity is still a race of tribalistic barbarians just with fancy tools are ludicrous. Then you have crap like this going on constantly throughout the world in various forms.

I'd say my viewpoint is vindicated on a daily basis. I'd love to be wrong, but I've yet to see a reason to think so.

Malor wrote:

It has now been three weeks since the offensive started; only 16 trucks a day of food are allowed in to feed 1.5 million people.

They'll be dying in there soon, above and beyond the thousand that have been killed by violence.

It's a concentration camp for Palestinians.

OK, so now we've had both the "Palestinians are Nazis" and the "Israelis are Nazis" arguments in this thread. I think we've officially covered all the bases.

LobsterMobster wrote:
Malor wrote:

It has now been three weeks since the offensive started; only 16 trucks a day of food are allowed in to feed 1.5 million people.

They'll be dying in there soon, above and beyond the thousand that have been killed by violence.

It's a concentration camp for Palestinians.

OK, so now we've had both the "Palestinians are Nazis" and the "Israelis are Nazis" arguments in this thread. I think we've officially covered all the bases.

Wow, what a totally pointless contribution. It warps space and time with the shear scale of its inanity.

As for Gaza, it is a much like a ghetto. The city had been blockaded for months (during and after the truce, I have never heard of a truce where one side is allowed to literally starve the entire population of a region. But it's ISRAEL! They can never do wrong! They didn't technically break the truce even if they were breaking the spirit of it through the mass starvation of civilians).

No reporters are allowed in (which was always fairly suspicious). The number of trucks allowed in are no where near enough to feed a city of 1.5 million. The population suffers from malnutrition, children suffer from anemia and stunted growth. Medicine is scarce. The economy has totally collapsed and driven even more people into destitution. This by any standard is a ghetto. The only reason that people ignore this is because it is Israel that is doing it. No other nation in the world would get such favorable treatment from governments and the media.

They didn't technically break the truce even if they were breaking the spirit of it through the mass starvation of civilians

Yes they did; they sent in a force that killed six "Hamas militants" before the truce expired. This was even in Israeli papers; it's not even a tiny bit in doubt. Gaza, over the last six months, had fired a total of three rockets, probably from splinter jihadis, not Hamas, and had inflicted no damage or casualties.

Hamas fired some rockets after the Israelis attacked, and then the Israelis started their current operation.

The one thing that's absolutely consistent about the whole thing is that the Israeli government lies, even more than the Bush administration did. After ramming that boat, for instance, with Cynthia McKinney on board, they insisted that they "would never do such a thing". Hamas does hide militants among civilians, but I don't see that they have a choice; they're being exterminated, and fighting openly is fighting stupidly.

Gaza is the biggest open-air prison camp in the world, and the people inside are starving. This is collective punishment, and it's gone past simple comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto; the only thing worse after that, inflicted on a captive population, is the concentration camps.

What I don't get is why people keep buying the Israeli line when they're so obviously lying. They do this over and over, clearly claiming things that are absolutely and provably untrue, and people just swallow it whole, or make weak excuses.

It's okay to hold your friends to higher standards than your enemies.

There have been precisely two democratically-elected governments in the Arab world in the last thirty or forty years, and Israel has attacked them both.

Malor wrote:
They didn't technically break the truce even if they were breaking the spirit of it through the mass starvation of civilians

Yes they did; they sent in a force that killed six "Hamas militants" before the truce expired. This was even in Israeli papers; it's not even a tiny bit in doubt. Gaza, over the last six months, had fired a total of three rockets, probably from splinter jihadis, not Hamas, and had inflicted no damage or casualties.

Sorry, I was mistaken.

People keep blathering on about "it's about Hamas and the destruction of Israel", what a load of BS. It had nothing to do with the mass starvation of an entire city.

I saw this photo on reddit and with the discussion on phosphorus on the previous page I figured it was worth posting. I don't know anything more about this instance, but with a UN vehicle and an amulance targeted there's bound to be some reporting on it somewhere. Edit: Looks like it was this UN school.

IMAGE(http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/fosforgroot.jpg)

What the hell are they shooting? It looks like that building pissed off a bunch of archers with flaming arrows.

Its white phosphorus filaments from an air burst shell. As far as I understand, the shell is supposed explode far higher up and the phosphorus burns on the way down causing the smoke screen. In this case the shell burst at too low an altitude which reduces their use as smokescreen but make them really good setting objects alight.

For those of you that may find yourselves in a real war someday, most weapons don't have dramatic signatures like that. Usually there's a bunch of noise, some smoke, an explosion, and flying debris. Not fire and not persistent smoke. Things that appear to be on fire, usually are.

Reaper81 wrote:

For those of you that may find yourselves in a real war someday, most weapons don't have dramatic signatures like that. Usually there's a bunch of noise, some smoke, an explosion, and flying debris. Not fire and not persistent smoke. Things that appear to be on fire, usually are.

Errr.... Thanks for the reassurance.... I guess. I truly hope I never need to find out.

Quite a touching story written by a former member of the Israeli armed forces.

More brute than human

The Israeli government and its supporters claim we are really the victim, that we had no choice but to attack Gaza, that we hurt civilians only because they are being used as human shields, that Israel wants peace and Hamas wants death.

Israel's critics, on the other hand, claim that it had a choice, it broke the ceasefire, that we have killed over a thousand in Gaza over the past three years, before the invasion began, and that the siege in Gaza was designed to use civilians to put pressure on their leaders to change - the same logic as the despised human shields.

I view the situation from another perspective - that of an Israeli citizen concerned about the future of our democracy.

I am no stranger to the Israeli military, having served for more thanfour years as a soldier in an elite reconnaissance unit and then as a lieutenant and deputy company commander.

I thought I could maintain a high standard of moral conduct while controlling the lives of Palestinians under my occupation. I was wrong. It is impossible to coerce your surroundings by force and then go home and be a regular citizen.

The power you use and abuse in the Occupied Territories very quickly goes to your head. You come home less of a human being and more of a brute. It is impossible to maintain a system of force towards another people and a democracy in dealing with your own.

When our boys in Gaza come home after the assault ends, they, like me, will realise this. How will they behave as heads of households when their initiation into society has been through violence? How will they understand government when they realise that this assault had no real goals, that part of its aim was a cynical pre-election strategy?

How will they understand law after they have been made to see themselves as above it? How will they view the international community when they have seen how Israel disregards United Nations resolutions and international law?

And why talk of the future when Israel's present conduct towards its own citizens has already deteriorated to a frightening low? Most of the world has heard about Gaza, but not that Israel has barred the media from entering the territory, with the exception of few Israeli journalists who accompany the troops and write reports that could have been written by the military itself.

More than 700 Israelis have been arrested for protesting against the war. More than 200 were still in custody at the time this was written, a third of them Israeli citizens under the age of 18.

But the Israelis who have been hurt most by this repression are not Jewish, but Arab citizens of the state. Israel's Parliament this week banned Arab political parties from running in general elections next month, a sign of growing confrontation with the country's Arab minority.

The present and future of Israeli democracy is in serious question.

The world must understand that nations always have a choice about how to conduct themselves and these choices have consequences. Only then can we ask real questions.

We must ask if Israel did all in its power to avoid this war. I and a growing number of Israelis do not believe this is the case.

More importantly, we must ask ourselves about our moral boundaries as a nation. I and a growing number of ex-combatants believe we crossed them long ago and are witnessing the collapse of our democracy as all means become acceptable in achieving vague military aims. -- © Guardian News & Media Limited

bobalot wrote:

Wow, what a totally pointless contribution. It warps space and time with the shear scale of its inanity.

Likewise. Prefacing your posts with personal attacks is a good way to get the boot. Put a lid on it, please.