Have I "outgrown" JRPG's?

Videogames are still a young form of media. When a game genre fails to evolve, they'll retread the same ground. It may not matter too much to people just coming into the genre since they haven't played all the older games.

While I was never really into JRPGs, I had a lot of fun with Final Fantasy I, II (IV?), and Legend. When I came back after a while, FF8 and Chrono Cross drove me away for good.

Prederick wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

I find myself less attracted to JRPGs these days but I think that's largely because I'm no longer their target demographic. I can't relate to 15-year-old protagonists and I don't think the greatest poetry of my generation was written by Linkin Park. I'm also a little tired of feeling obligated to explore every last nook and cranny of every place they give me to explore. And no, I've found that I in fact cannot simply "stop doing that." :(

Same. I don't think i've "outgrown" JRPGs, I just find that, as in much Anime, I find many of the general conventions of the genre infuriating. That's not their fault. We've "grown apart" really. That last one I enjoyed was FFVII, and then my tastes changed.

You should really look in to Persona 4. They've done away with the whole "shooting yourself in the head to summon stuff" mechanic. Now, everyone has emo glasses. Seriously. It's a plot element. Everyone needs to wear these special glasses and they only make them in one style.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Videogames are still a young form of media. When a game genre fails to evolve, they'll retread the same ground. It may not matter too much to people just coming into the genre since they haven't played all the older games.

While I was never really into JRPGs, I had a lot of fun with Final Fantasy I, II (IV?), and Legend. When I came back after a while, FF8 and Chrono Cross drove me away for good.

I think this is where I fall right now as well. The genre is still very much the same as when I first discovered it 10-15 years ago. I feel like my tastes have adapted while JRPGs are still pretty much the same as ever.

My last serious attempts into the genre were with DQ8 and Vesperia. I can see how they would both have been really fun for someone very new to the genre, but I could scale the wall of disinterest.

One thing I'll call out is that historically genres like JRPGs and Adventure Games (SCUMM!) were the place to be for story, rich media, and a sense of immersion in video gaming. As those aspects have been adapted (wonderfully) into so many other genres I find that the JRPG needs to add something new to pull me in - which hasn't yet happened.

But, I'm optimistic that this is a bump in the road. The genre needs to hit this crisis in order to be convinced to change. I think FF12, for instance, started to address these issues by changing around the gameplay and story style. It didn't quite work for me, but it gives me some hope.

The trailers for FF13, at least story/character-wise, are looking to be a step back to the traditional. So maybe the renaissance won't be for another generation - but I believe it will come!

LobsterMobster wrote:
Prederick wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

I find myself less attracted to JRPGs these days but I think that's largely because I'm no longer their target demographic. I can't relate to 15-year-old protagonists and I don't think the greatest poetry of my generation was written by Linkin Park. I'm also a little tired of feeling obligated to explore every last nook and cranny of every place they give me to explore. And no, I've found that I in fact cannot simply "stop doing that." :(

Same. I don't think i've "outgrown" JRPGs, I just find that, as in much Anime, I find many of the general conventions of the genre infuriating. That's not their fault. We've "grown apart" really. That last one I enjoyed was FFVII, and then my tastes changed.

You should really look in to Persona 4. They've done away with the whole "shooting yourself in the head to summon stuff" mechanic. Now, everyone has emo glasses. Seriously. It's a plot element. Everyone needs to wear these special glasses and they only make them in one style.

Do you tell me these things just to raise my blood pressure personally, or do you just hate black people? Dear god, i'd have a aneurysm just looking at the cover.

EDIT: And no, Mr. Caine does not wear Emo glasses, he has special Dramatic glasses made to be taken on and off while being dramatic.

You know how the first part of Tales of Symphonia is actually pretty cool and original, then... they probably should have ended the game? So far it's kept the new and awesome feel. Overall the combat system feels a step above Symphonia, and the main character is more a take on an RPG character with the attitude of Dante or Nero from DMC. In short: Awesome. I'm only about ~20 hours in, so far, but I'd faded a little on Symphonia by now. Really, the only problem is the bosses are SO much harder than the rest of the combat so far. I'm stuck on an evil boss, but I've been busy as well.

Prederick wrote:

Do you tell me these things just to raise my blood pressure personally, or do you just hate black people? Dear god, i'd have a aneurysm just looking at the cover.

We all have our little hobbies.

LobsterMobster wrote:
Prederick wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

I find myself less attracted to JRPGs these days but I think that's largely because I'm no longer their target demographic. I can't relate to 15-year-old protagonists and I don't think the greatest poetry of my generation was written by Linkin Park. I'm also a little tired of feeling obligated to explore every last nook and cranny of every place they give me to explore. And no, I've found that I in fact cannot simply "stop doing that." :(

Same. I don't think i've "outgrown" JRPGs, I just find that, as in much Anime, I find many of the general conventions of the genre infuriating. That's not their fault. We've "grown apart" really. That last one I enjoyed was FFVII, and then my tastes changed.

You should really look in to Persona 4. They've done away with the whole "shooting yourself in the head to summon stuff" mechanic. Now, everyone has emo glasses. Seriously. It's a plot element. Everyone needs to wear these special glasses and they only make them in one style.

I liked the kids shooting themselves, as an effective bit of symbolism. I'll still pick up Persona 4, but putting on glasses doesn't seem quite as dramatic. I do, however, like the new murder mystery aspect.

Advice for Kehama: Stop playing JRPGs for a while, even Persona (the aforementioned level grind will drive you crazy) and maybe you'll come back, maybe you won't. It's OK to stop liking a genre. Most gamers tend to get pickier as they get older, and eventually find a few genres that they can comfortably avoid.

Will and I discussed this very topic in length today. I'll share some thoughts.

I'm fond of the explanation I read a while back when a writer was comparing American comic books and Japanese Manga: American comics have extraordinary superheroes who are trying to be normal (Superman, X-men). Japanese manga have normal people trying to be extraordinary superheroes. This concept seems to transfer into RPGs.

Western RPGs tend to treat the main character as "the chosen one" right off the bat. Being uber is expected of you. I mean look at you! You're Commander Shepard for crying out loud. You are the only one who can save the world. Hurry up!

In Japanese RPGs, you start off as an average person. You are not special. You are not unique and damn it, you have chores to do so get to it. What, you have a strange mark on your chest? Ha! Stop trying to change the subject. Get out of here and don't let me catch you fooling around with your friends again or you are so grounded, mister!

There are exceptions for both types of RPGs but you get the idea. I believe it comes down to the quality of the game and not the fact that each genre has a "template." I'm perfectly fine with random battles, teenagers, spiky hair and amnesia as long as it's done well. If you can't pull it off in a convincing way, don't do it. Think of something else or I will not play your game.

This is why I enjoyed Lost Odyssey so much. Out of 9 characters, only two where children. The rest of them were all adults. Adults with actual brains. Sure, they had issues but they resolved those issues like adults. OMFG what a concept. There wasn't any teenage "I hate the world" angst to speak of. And the two children? They weren't annoying to me. They didn't have many lines and when they did speak, it was an ear-piecing screech. The rate of random battles were set to be few and far between. Sometimes, you could run from one area to the next without encountering a single enemy. You even acquired an item early in the game that allowed you to run away from any battle except boss fights. THANK YOU. However, I'll have to disagree that having the ability to change a character's appearance when equipment is changed is a good thing. It was so damn awkward to see the main male character during a serious cutscene wearing a hair band with cat ears. Cat ears!

I'm as open-minded to innovation as the next person. The last RPG I finished was Mother 3 and I rarely ever play an RPG exclusively. I plowed through it in a week and it was excellent. Everything about it was so different. The story, the battle system, the characters... It's innovation at its best. Or maybe not so innovative. I never played the first Earthbound. But how willing are these developers to innovate with the chance that their innovation may be seen as a gimmick or fail completely? It can be done but it's a big risk to take especially when the majority wants nothing more than another freakin Final Fantasy.

Look, the point is that I had a point. It's somewhere. But I wrote so much crap that I completely forgot what my point was, okay?

I dislike the Persona series simply for the glorification of shooting one's self in the head. It seems to me that it makes light of an aspect of modern Japanese culture that should probably not be dealt with in such a dismissive and juvenile way.

More than that, though, I have a strong dislike for the series because of some individuals I had classes with a couple years ago. I remember, in a game design class, I had intended on making a mock up of a biker gang recruitment/ action game. I brought in The Warriors as an example of the gang aspect I was trying to implement, and these individuals complained profusely about the violent nature of the game, and how unnecessarily graphic and brutal it was. Then in another class not a year later, they bring in Persona (one of the sequels, maybe) and show us how awesome it is to shoot yourself in the head in order to summon magical beasts. Hypocritical, much? I called them out on it, and they just did not make the correlation-- high schoolers shooting themselves in the heads repeatedly is not as violent as fantasy gang brawls? THEY ARE VOLUNTARILY AND READILY PUTTING GUNS TO THEIR HEADS AND PULLING THE TRIGGER. Just because the end result is not death but the appearance of imaginary creatures doesn't mean the action itself is somehow less shocking and perverse.

Now when I think of Persona with either emo glasses or guns, it doesn't matter-- I can't help but associate the series with those kids from college and it always kind of irks me...
/rant

Just to clarify: I "liked" the symbolism of it, in the larger context of a Jungian world where teenagers steal aspects of each other's souls in order to build their "persona," but are ultimately annihilating what makes them unique. I definitely agree, WipEout, that it's not "awesome" in real life at all. The kids you mention sound like idiots.

Nyles wrote:

Just to clarify: I "liked" the symbolism of it, in the larger context of a Jungian world where teenagers steal aspects of each other's souls in order to build their "persona," but are ultimately annihilating what makes them unique. I definitely agree, WipEout, that it's not "awesome" in real life at all. The kids you mention sound like idiots.

No worries, I wasn't trying to associate your take on the game with theirs, or calling you out on your opinion-- I had actually started writing my post before you had posted yours. And I agree with your explanation of the symbolism-- the idea of building your persona (self-image) based on that of those around you is very fitting to being a teen-- figuring out who you are, seeing how your friends/family/surroundings influence you. And the self-conflict with losing what makes the individual unique is interesting, too. I just don't like shooting myself in the head so I can be more like my friends

To start with a "me too": I still like JRPGs enough that I'll have dumped about 100 hours into Tales of Vesperia by the time I'm done; but I gave up after about a dozen hours of Infinite Undiscovery. I just wasn't feeling it. I think maybe it just isn't a very good game, despite the pedigree.

Something we overlook a lot is the power of translation. I find that I most enjoy JRPGs where the translators take a liberal hand to smooth over cultural differences. From the old Working Designs games like Lunar to Tales of Vesperia (which appears to have actually had some quests altered for us) some RPGs are made to bridge the gap better.

I used to be a "one game at a time" gamer, but now I've found now that I'm happiest if I keep two games going: one RPG and one action-oriented. It helps stave off burnout; sometimes I'm in the mood to grind levels, sometimes I'm in the mood to shoot aliens in the head. Handheld RPGs are especially working for me because they're forced to offer liberal save systems, and I can absentmindedly grind monsters while "watching" a show my wife's interested in.

WipEout wrote:
Nyles wrote:

Just to clarify: I "liked" the symbolism of it, in the larger context of a Jungian world where teenagers steal aspects of each other's souls in order to build their "persona," but are ultimately annihilating what makes them unique. I definitely agree, WipEout, that it's not "awesome" in real life at all. The kids you mention sound like idiots.

No worries, I wasn't trying to associate your take on the game with theirs, or calling you out on your opinion-- I had actually started writing my post before you had posted yours. And I agree with your explanation of the symbolism-- the idea of building your persona (self-image) based on that of those around you is very fitting to being a teen-- figuring out who you are, seeing how your friends/family/surroundings influence you. And the self-conflict with losing what makes the individual unique is interesting, too. I just don't like shooting myself in the head so I can be more like my friends :P

And we can all agree that glasses are stupid. If kids want to see better, they should just squint. If it's good enough for Clint Eastwood, it's good enough for you, kid.

WipEout wrote:

I dislike the Persona series simply for the glorification of shooting one's self in the head. It seems to me that it makes light of an aspect of modern Japanese culture that should probably not be dealt with in such a dismissive and juvenile way.

In the opening cinematic, one of the main characters is trying desperately to summon the courage to pull the trigger, knowing it isn't going to actually kill her, but can't do it. When your character shows up and puts the gun to his head - not even really knowing what it is or how it works, just that it's what he needs to do - it's pretty powerful stuff. I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

WipEout wrote:

I just don't like shooting myself in the head so I can be more like my friends.

That's a pretty provocative image. Don't you think?

LobsterMobster wrote:

... it's pretty powerful stuff. I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

On the contrary, I give them credit for telling a story in a unique way, and for the (to borrow from Nyles) Jungian aspects-- that's all quite interesting. On the other hand, I feel that taking a strong act such as suicide and turning it into a token "move" in a video game-- without an overall message as to the importance of suicide itself (at least not in any argument for the game that I've heard yet)-- diminishes said importance. However, my argument stems from a Western point of view: that suicide is morally wrong, cowardly, even un-christian (although that's not why I don't condone it), that failures can be lived through and overcome, etc. Japan stems from a culture based largely on honor, that encouraged harakiri in penance for failure, and was never influenced so strongly by Western religious beliefs that their viewpoint has changed quite so dramatically as to mirror that of the West's.

LobsterMobster wrote:
WipEout wrote:

I just don't like shooting myself in the head so I can be more like my friends.

That's a pretty provocative image. Don't you think?

Provocative as in irritating, disturbing, insulting, offensive, yes. Aside from my "stance" against suicide (I would like to continue to live, thankyouverymuch), I simply do not agree with one becoming more like one's friends in order to fit in. I see in this game (or rather, explanations of this game from others, as I have no desire to play it myself) a message of "giving in to peer pressure is like killing a little bit of yourself every day" and I can understand that message. What I dislike, though, is that we are individuals-- I am my own person. I am not my buddy Pete from High School. He was all buff and hooked up with the hot chicks in high school-- but that was him, not me. Not for a lack of effort-- because I know I can pretty much do whatever I wish if I apply myself-- but for a lack of desire. I don't want to be like him because I don't want to be him. If he didn't accept me for who I was, then we simply would not have been friends.

I just felt differently about my formative years than that-- I tended not to give in to peer pressure. Was I one of the popular kids in school? Probably not, but I didn't notice nor did I care. So a game that bases itself in such issues simply does not interest me. But to take an issue that does interest me, and affects myself, friends, and family so personally, and use it in a passive means to put an unrelated point across, cheapens the impact of the original issue, in my opinion.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get all lengthy or preachy, just felt like a little discussin'

WipEout wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
WipEout wrote:

I just don't like shooting myself in the head so I can be more like my friends.

That's a pretty provocative image. Don't you think?

Provocative as in irritating, disturbing, insulting, offensive, yes. Aside from my "stance" against suicide (I would like to continue to live, thankyouverymuch), I simply do not agree with one becoming more like one's friends in order to fit in. I see in this game (or rather, explanations of this game from others, as I have no desire to play it myself) a message of "giving in to peer pressure is like killing a little bit of yourself every day" and I can understand that message. What I dislike, though, is that we are individuals-- I am my own person. I am not my buddy Pete from High School. He was all buff and hooked up with the hot chicks in high school-- but that was him, not me. Not for a lack of effort-- because I know I can pretty much do whatever I wish if I apply myself-- but for a lack of desire. I don't want to be like him because I don't want to be him. If he didn't accept me for who I was, then we simply would not have been friends.

I just felt differently about my formative years than that-- I tended not to give in to peer pressure. Was I one of the popular kids in school? Probably not, but I didn't notice nor did I care. So a game that bases itself in such issues simply does not interest me. But to take an issue that does interest me, and affects myself, friends, and family so personally, and use it in a passive means to put an unrelated point across, cheapens the impact of the original issue, in my opinion.

If I have my cultures right, Japan pushes conformity pretty hard, about as hard as "the west" pushes individuality. It's not suprising that that aspect of the game doesn't resonate well over here.

I think that the problem is that the suicide imagery is exploitative, which is something I've written about in detail (warning: self-whoring link, sorry, but it's too long to include here). But my stance has been criticized on the basis that I just don't understand the Japanese, who are all thrilled that they have the world's highest teenage suicide rate, and that I just don't like the game because I am not good at it, and am probably also gay, as well as probably also beinng a born-again Christian and a Republican who wants to ban all videogames.

The imagery being used in an exploitative manner is completely orthogonal, by the way, to the question of whether Persona 3 is a good game.

I don't really care about the plot/presentation issues you have, and I enjoy the odd JRPG. But there does seem to be some sort of fundamentally different mindset that JRPG developers and fans have that I just don't understand. I guess you could sum it up as "more is better", and it's wrong in my opinion. Everything has to be padded out, stretched and repeated: boss fights, dialogue, plot twists.

Baten Kaitos made you fight the same boss something like 4 times throughout the game - who actually thinks that's fun? I liked the rest of the game, but the endless repetition of everything really wore me down.

I haven't outgrown them in so much that I just do not have the time for them anymore. I enjoy the JRPG over the WRPG, just because, I had more experience playing western rpgs until the SNES released, then I play D&D in a weekly game which is THE western RPG.

JRPG tend to have better plots and characters, just less freedom which I sometimes do not like. In LO for Xbox, when I got to the 4th disc, I quit playing...the freedom removed my will to finish.

I also tend to like the "happy" games and too many western rpgs are dark and brooding just to be dark and brooding. I've moved away from Square's angst games for a while now. FFX was the worst of those. FFXII moved back away from that.

Though its not quite a jrpg I have been loving Valkria Chronicles so far. I forgot how good and bright these games can be. It reminds me a lot of final fantasy tactics while sharing very little in actual gameplay.

peterb wrote:

I think that the problem is that the suicide imagery is exploitative, which is something I've written about in detail (warning: self-whoring link, sorry, but it's too long to include here). But my stance has been criticized on the basis that I just don't understand the Japanese, who are all thrilled that they have the world's highest teenage suicide rate, and that I just don't like the game because I am not good at it, and am probably also gay, as well as probably also beinng a born-again Christian and a Republican who wants to ban all videogames.

The imagery being used in an exploitative manner is completely orthogonal, by the way, to the question of whether Persona 3 is a good game.

I'm sorry, Peter, but as well informed and rational as your main thesis was I found many of your arguments lacking in substance and was disappointed to see that you ignored and/or casually dismissed more than a few commenters on your piece that brought up some very valid points. I suppose it is understandable since the majority of the commenters were hitting you with irrational and juvenile arguments, and when you are already on the defensive it's hard to take the time to sort the wheat from the chaff. Still, though, I think you were so busy trying to defend the whole of your original argument that you may have missed some genuinely good opportunities to expand your thinking on the subject, and to cull some the parts that may not have been well founded.

Anyway, I don't really care to discuss it much further, but I'm curious how far you progressed through the story. I do think that you might have found, as I did, that your initial impression regarding the exploitative quality of the suicide imagery would have been tempered as you saw how the story developed.

You may have also found yourself embarrassed by the silliness of your assertion that the game's primary appeal is toward teenagers, or those who wish to re-live their teenage years. Of all the JRPGs I've played in my time, I'd say that Persona 3 was among the most thoughtful, thought provoking, and mature games I've played in the genre, and even though it is told from the genre's traditional "coming of age" perspective there is a lot in the story that could be of interest to an adult. And to put it another way, you wouldn't say that any other game's setting and characters necessarily determines it's target audience, would you? There is certainly often a correlation, but in the case of Persona 3 I think you do the game and yourself a disservice by jumping to that conclusion before peeling back a few layers.

As for the gameplay, well, either the traditional JPRG memes work for you or they don't. I mean, that's the central topic of this thread, right? Whether as you become an adult you can continue to have those memes work for you. Well, I would refute your assertion (and honestly find it a bit insulting) that you have to either be a child or have no life to be able to enjoy some of the typical JRPG gameplay patterns, such as save points. It's fair to say that it's harder to find the time to allot for games that have a save point system rather than a "save anywhere" mechanic as one becomes older. It's not fair to say that that a save point system is inherently a broken design choice or one that dictates something about the player, even though as implemented save point systems are often broken, or at least inconsiderate of or unfair to the player (as they often are in JRPGs, such as Persona 3!).

However, a well designed and fairly implemented save point/checkpoint system is often an integral part of good game design, and allows the developer important latitude when crafting what the player's experience of a section of a game should be; in every way from difficulty balance to making sure that parts of a game that are meant to be impactful are experienced in one sitting, not allowing for saving and loading at the player's whim is often an important tool when crafting many types of games.

So to perhaps get back toward the question of the original post of the thread, I don't think one needs reject the JRPG genre as one finds themselves dealing with the time constraints of adulthood, but they may need to be more selective and discriminating regarding the genre because it is one that often comes part and parcel with extended play times. Personally, I tend to do a bit more research on JRPGs (and games of other time consuming genres) before deciding to play them, and I make sure that I am playing the games that do something new or offer a particularly compelling or well produced version of what has come before. More than that, though, once I have decided to play a given JRPG, I quickly try to get an idea of how long a typical gameplay sitting with that game will be, and when I am sitting down to play a game and don't have that much time, I either play something else or understand that I may need to leave the game paused or abandon progress I have made.

I am definitely in the same boat as you Kehama. I just can't get into the genre anymore, and it's one that I used to love and sunk hundreds of hours into. I think this is mostly because I have seen what RPG's can be with some of the fantastic "western" RPG's and I just can't go back now. I had a lot of JRPGs in my gameaccess.ca rental queue, but after fighting to get through the first few hours of Blue Dragon, I finally came to the realization that I don't have to play games that I don't like.

So now I can honestly say that I no longer have any JRPGs in my rental queue.

However, a well designed and fairly implemented save point/checkpoint system is often an integral part of good game design, and allows the developer important latitude when crafting what the player's experience of a section of a game should be; in every way from difficulty balance to making sure that parts of a game that are meant to be impactful are experienced in one sitting, not allowing for saving and loading at the player's whim is often an important tool when crafting many types of games.

Somewhere, the guy who puts unskippable ads at the front of the DVDs you buy is using the exact same justification.

This is a topic for another thread, but for now we'll have to agree to disagree: for me, the lack of an ability to suspend or save a game at any point is always, under all circumstances, as clear a sign of bad game design as one could ask for.

I think the various reactions to Persona 3's summoning mechanic say a hell of a lot more about those who had the reactions than the game itself.

FFVII was the first game I played on ps1. It convinced me to buy a ps1 in the first place. I even would go so far as to say it made me a hardcore gamer. I've played every FF title since then, the exception being FFXI and some of the older titles. Did I like FFX? Not all that much. As far as game mechanics, I like the active battles more. And while the ending was sad, it almost made no sense to me. I stuck with it, though, and that gave me FFXII, my favorite RPG to date.

The thing about RPGs is, as I see it, you're reading a book, but you're involved. It's always been about the story for me. If you don't care for the characters, plot, or world they're in, then return it/sell it. In that regard, I view all RPGs the same. Do I care about Shepard/Cloud? If the answer is yes, then please continue. I guess I'll never outgrow JRPGs as long as I find the characters engaging, the story utterly fantastic, and the world vast. And the game mechanics not too bad. Hell, most of my first 50 hours in FFVIII was drawing magic from enemies. You can't do that if you don't like the game, neh?
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FINE! I played FFVII so often because of Bahamut and Neo Bahamut. I summoned them to fight every battle after I got them. I swear, I did also care about the Cloud/Tifa/Aries love triangle. And I still count fighting Jenova Life moments after her death as one of the most surreal moments of my life (especially with music ).

WipEOut wrote:

I simply do not agree with one becoming more like one's friends in order to fit in.

And you can't appreciate a statement's impact unless you agree with it?

Well, it looks like I'll be giving jrpg's another shot sooner than I thought. I had Tales of Vesperia in my Gamefly cue at about spot # 17 and that's the one they just shipped to me. I honestly can't figure their system for shipping as other games much higher up were showing as available. Go figure.

And I do agree that the genre seems to have stagnated but I just keep hoping every new release is that one shining gem. For me, when jrpg's were good they were really freakin' good but when they were bad they were unbearably bad. It just seems like I've viewed more and more of the recent releases as bad.

*edit*
Oh, and I do love the Persona games but I haven't played the most recent one as my nephew now has my PS2. Any idea if the Persona games are backwards compatable via software emulation on the new versions of the PS3?

I played Persona 3 on my friend's PS3 but I don't know which version he had. Probably the 80GB.

Final Fantasy XII, oh how I hate that game. Vain would have to be the lamest badguy ever. It the only time I have actually snapped the disk of a game in frustration (being wiped seven times by these pumpkin headed guys finally did it). I did buy it again because I felt compelled to complete it after having already invested 40hours.

The characters are lifeless and the plot is boring crap and unlike earlier FF's, it is humourless and without weirdness. The menu mashing in this game is merciless and many a time a had to repeat hours of gameplay. This games main crime is that it forces you to grind, grind, grind, for the casual gamer like me you cannot just make your way through the main plot. It also does not teach you what you need to know and whats with having no way of knowing what a techinque or spell does until you try it out.

When I rebought the game I simply ground my way up so I was so overpowered I could walk into a boss fight and my gambits would win it for me. This game looks beautiful and has many excellent features (I like the hunting side quest) but was broken for me because the actual combat system is not fun,(I must have menu mashed that bloody charge technique a zillions times before I you can finally get the gambit) the summoning and overdrives were next to useless (the summoner could be attacked!!! WTF). But the gamebreaker again is the totally lame story.

So I hope FFXIII fixes these issues though it does look very suspect to me as the character look like they could of been grown in vats by Hitler, what is with the white skin and hair. Why can't we have ugly heroes. I enjoyed FF X and I am curently playing FF IX which I like even more. IX has great look to it, solid gameplay, (many irriating random battles though) but most of all I am loving the characters and story, which like VII is weird and wacky. I bought that FF movie, FF VII advent children and hated it, for all its flashy graphics it was souless. It is worth it though for one extra, which is a walkthrough of FF VII using footage from the game.

I'd love to see a new generation RPG set in Disk World with the plot written by Terry Pratchett himself. Has anyone played Eternal Sonata? Is it any good. Also I started Persona 3 but stopped after the boring grind got to me and levels that were repeats of earlier stuff but in a different colour. From the way people talk about it I assume it must get better as you get deeper into it.

I love RPG's but they do need a serious injection of new ideas. I do recommend Square Ennix's 'The World Ends with you' for the DS, that's a terrific game im my opinion.

Kehama wrote:

I honestly can't figure their system for shipping as other games much higher up were showing as available. Go figure.

I had one case where it skipped over everything and went to the bottom of my list: Boom Blox. Now I keep only the games I want right now on there. If I really want to play a game I just kill everything on the list except that, it puts me to the top of the queue so the next copy of the game is sent to me, even if someone else has it at number one but has other stuff on their list.

DarkStuff wrote:

Also I started Persona 3 but stopped after the boring grind got to me and levels that were repeats of earlier stuff but in a different colour. From the way people talk about it I assume it must get better as you get deeper into it.

The combat doesn't. Not really. I mean sure, it gets easier; most of your guys get healing moves at some point and once you get enough persona you can just nuke any enemy with its elemental weakness. But the gameplay is not the driving feature of Persona 3 in my experience. I played it for the main story, the side story with all the characters, the interesting world, the boss and summon designs. The game part of it, though, was something I had to trudge through to get to the parts I actually enjoyed.