Too Human Catch-All

inspiringsn wrote:

I was playing through the single player campaign last night and the second boss requires a lot a shooting with guns to defeat him. I however have a berzerker and as such it takes me forever to do damage with ranged weapons. So is this lack of options for the more melee-centric berzerker bad gameplay design? I'm no expert, but when I'm having so much fun with the rest of the game and then I get severely frustrated and annoyed with this one part I'd say 'yes'.

From what I hear, being primarily ranged isn't really a viable option so I'd say something ought to get tweaked here.

Played this for a few hours on a rental today. Fun in the first part. Second part? Significantly less so. Probably won't play through any farther.

LobsterMobster wrote:

From what I hear, being primarily ranged isn't really a viable option so I'd say something ought to get tweaked here.

That would seem to be a rather signifficant part of the game to miss in design if an entire boss battle is incredibly more difficult depending on your class.

Quick question I've reached Nifon (sp?) and I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do. Any suggestions?

He's the black cloud type guy in cyberspace.

Nevermind, it seems you can't do anything until later in the game.

So now that I've put in 20 or 25 hours of single and co-op, I have to say that I am still happy with it. I've played a ton of co-op, and the choice to skip all cutscenes is awesome, because I can still progress through my campaign without anything being spoiled but the names of some bosses.

Enemy and loot layouts, and some other stuff, are significantly different between SP and co-op. My first co-op game I was dropped into a maze in the middle of the first level, and was kind of surprised.

The levels are LONG. Even if you know what you're doing, the fights all scale so you can't just breeze through, no matter what your mission. THere is some mumbo-jumbo going on in the background to balance oyt players in co-op, so if you're 30 levels under your friend, it's not totally impossible to damage enemies, although you CAN still get 1-shotted on the 4th level if you're very low level.

The classes' skill trees are all interesting and it's so easy and cheap to respec, it's very fun to change up playstyles. I've got a level 30 Champion and a level 32 BioEngineer, and both are a ton of fun (although the BioE sucks to play until past level 20, and only gets good when you figure out how to use his skills.) Currently my Champion is a single-sword critical hit machine, and my BioE is basically a Commando who can heal, walking around with a gigantic laser/minigun/plasma rifle.

Anyone who says that ranged combat is not viable, or that it's impossible to kill bosses as a Berserker, simply haven't explored all their options. Always carry 1 of each ranged damage type (plasma slug laser,) and experiment if you can't hurt an enemy. Always have your DPS meter showing so you can tell if you're hurting the enemy or not(right on the D-Pad.) Lasers warm up, and the longer you stick to a target the hotter it gets and the more damage it takes as well.

After 8 hours of game play I came to the realization that this is Phantasy Star Online without the 4 player co-op. The melee and ranged battle system are similar as is the modification system. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact I logged many, many hours on PSO and I can see myself doing the same for Too Human. However, the lack of 4 player co-op is a glaring omission, even more so when PSO had it over 8 years ago.

I didn't say that the second boss was impossible as a berzerker. I said that it takes a very long time to defeat him with out good ranged combat (which is not what the berzerker is even decent at).

On another note, I just finished the game when I was expecting at least a level or two more to wrap up the story. Overall the story feels half baked and I know that it is a 'planned trilogy' but it didnt' even feel like a good stopping point. For example, the original Star Wars trilogy had 3 distinct movie that could pretty much stand on its own. This story just feels like they sloppily chopped up mythology that they were working with.

That being said I still think it is a lot of fun and I wasn't necessarily planning for the story, but it just had so much more potential.

inspiringsn wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

From what I hear, being primarily ranged isn't really a viable option so I'd say something ought to get tweaked here.

That would seem to be a rather signifficant part of the game to miss in design if an entire boss battle is incredibly more difficult depending on your class.

Well, playtesters reported it but were fired for being afraid of innovation.

LobsterMobster wrote:

Well, playtesters reported it but were fired for being afraid of innovation.

Will you back up these inflammatory statements with any facts, or are you just going to troll a thread for a game you don't want to play?

It was just a joke, dude, and a clever one at that. Calm down.

Wow. This is extremely frustrating. I am playing as the berserker and I've passed a point in the middle of the second level where I can't get through more than 2 fights without dying. The worst part is when I'm asked to go into a fight with only 1% of my health bar left.

1. Does anyone know what "Soothing" is? Is it a stat that only makes sense from a multiplayer perspective? Maybe it makes the enemies less prone to attacking you if they have a choice? I just had a thought, is it the opposite of Aggression?
2. Unless you're a bio-engineer, the only way to heal yourself is by picking up health orbs, am I correct? So if there are none around to be had, then you simply cannot heal yourself.
3. One of the advice panels in Tyr's Workshop tells me to use "Fierce" against Light Polarity enemies and "Finisher" against the dark polarity ones. I've identified that the glowing orange and glowing white ones explode when you kill them, so it makes sense to use the ranged "Fierce" on them. But which ones are the Dark polarity? Are those the Dark green guys that shoot purple stuff at you from mid distance?
4. Is there any way to execute Fierce when you're surrounded by enemies? I just keep on doing a Finisher and then the exploding guy catches up to me.

Okay, so it looks like my big problem is that I just rush in there and while I may kill lots of guys, I end up taking too much damage in the meantime. I suppose I may need to pay much closer attention to their animations so that I can avoid getting hit like in Ninja Gaiden.

Yoyoson wrote:

1. Does anyone know what "Soothing" is? Is it a stat that only makes sense from a multiplayer perspective? Maybe it makes the enemies less prone to attacking you if they have a choice? I just had a thought, is it the opposite of Aggression?

Yup, it's aggro control so only relevant in co-op play.

The game's stingy attitude on health orbs can be extremely annoying on occasion. You're full health when you finish one combat, you break some things and it gives you.. health you can't even pick up.

Then you leave the next fight, break something and it gives you.. bounty. There doesn't always seem to be any rhyme or reason to when health drops, and it's kind of annoying. I'm considering going Bioengineer next game just to avoid having to hunt for health orbs.

Thin_J wrote:

Then you leave the next fight, break something and it gives you.. bounty. There doesn't always seem to be any rhyme or reason to when health drops, and it's kind of annoying. I'm considering going Bioengineer next game just to avoid having to hunt for health orbs.

Even with the heal spell maxed out, it takes a while to get back a signifficant portion of your health. You can use the 'heal' if you go that route in the skill tree, but even that doesn't heal that much and in large fights you are still pretty dependent on health orbs. I kind of wish if you weren't engaged with an enemy that you would just heal on your own (regardless of class) like in WoW.

Thin_J wrote:

Then you leave the next fight, break something and it gives you.. bounty. There doesn't always seem to be any rhyme or reason to when health drops, and it's kind of annoying. I'm considering going Bioengineer next game just to avoid having to hunt for health orbs.

I agree it can be a little annoying, but I rarely find myself going into the next fight short on health. When I do it doesn't bother me at all because the death penalty is so minimal. I think there are some people who take it personal when they die. Not being all that good, I go in knowing I'll die a bunch. When it happens it's no big deal. I've softenend them up and I'm back with full health to kick some ass.

It would be a different story if I had to start farther back in the level, or if I had to keep getting my ass kicked by the same boss.

Trophy Husband wrote:
Thin_J wrote:

Then you leave the next fight, break something and it gives you.. bounty. There doesn't always seem to be any rhyme or reason to when health drops, and it's kind of annoying. I'm considering going Bioengineer next game just to avoid having to hunt for health orbs.

I agree it can be a little annoying, but I rarely find myself going into the next fight short on health. When I do it doesn't bother me at all because the death penalty is so minimal. I think there are some people who take it personal when they die. Not being all that good, I go in knowing I'll die a bunch. When it happens it's no big deal. I've softenend them up and I'm back with full health to kick some ass.

It would be a different story if I had to start farther back in the level, or if I had to keep getting my ass kicked by the same boss.

This is an issue. Many of the issues reviewers bring up just aren't real issues. Gametrailers (like many others) was harping all over the ranged targeting system but it works really well. Hint - you should always be pressing the R stick in some direction whether melee or range. With range, it will help you switch targets much faster.

Here's some more review, off the top of my head:

MY real issues:
-No out of combat heal system. Would potions have been that hard? Ideally, we should heal between fights like EVERY OTHER MODERN GAME. I think this is a hold over from the "10 years in development" because it's oooooooold school.
-Bosses that require ranged attacks to take them down. As a matter of fact, this includes trolls to some extent. Try taking down a troll that's a freezer type in a mid level coop fight without guns. = Lots of deaths.
-The second level boss - comon... The guy is only difficult because they make him invulnerable 90% of the time for no reason. It's almost like the fight is expected to take x amount of time no matter what strategy you use.
-4 levels? Seriously? After 10 years?
-4 looooooooooooo|~|oooooooooooooooong levels... Seriously? Some of us cannot game for 4 hours straight to knock out a level.
-No 4 player coop - why?

What I like:
-It's a loot whore game, and loot whoring rocks! (why reviews bag on too much loot is beyond me).
-It is fun (especially once you master the controls)
-Not too many glitches (I've seen 1).

Neutral:
-Loot variety. There's a lot, but not enough. I shouldn't see the exact same weapon (graphic + color) twice ever. I've seen a few of them many times. Armor is better about this. However, in a Coop last night LiquidMantis and I both looked almost identical even though I was a Defender and he was a Zerker. But, when there are truely uniqe items they looks really cool (like my current helmet - a neon purple laser gask mask ... neat!)
-Death penalty. The animation is silly (in length + requirement, the actual valkerie is cool), but I kinda see why they use it. The armor degredation seems to be enough to only penalize you for over dieing and not dieing here and there.

Overall, I would say this is a B average game, not the C-/D average that it is consistently given.

--------on a different note------------

FYI - for those higher level folks looking at really expensive color runes and wondering what the heck they're for:

Chaos Grimoire@gamefaqs.com[/url]]Courageous Light: Dark gray with gold trim and red lights.

Gleaming Black: Dark gray with gold trim(I forget what color the lights were)

Shining Black: Dark gray with platinum/silver trim, and blue lights. Goes well with the spider.

Luminous Black: Dark gray with darker gray trim trim, and blue and white lights.

Ardent Defender: Gold with dark gray trim(The reverse of courageous light), Orange/red lights. Similar to Elite enemies armor.

Cermonial Diamond: Dark gray with gold trim(better color than the other 2), and white lights. I like this color scheme, but it doesn't pop up as often as I'd like in stores.

World Tree: Dark green, copper/bronze trim, blue lights.

Maelstrom: Teal(very dark and shiny, almost looks like ravens feathers in some light), Dark Gray Trim, blue lights.

Irradiated: Blue/Green/Black with green lights.

-4 levels? Seriously? After 10 years?

The whole "10 years" sentiment is really misleading. They've done both Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes in that period. Too Human had a long development, but not that much longer than most AAA games. Now whether or not it lives up the to the pedigree is a different story.

-4 looooooooooooo|~|oooooooooooooooong levels... Seriously? Some of us cannot game for 4 hours straight to knock out a level.

Do you mean online? In single player is autosaves as you go, picking up where you left off when you come back. In multiplayer you can start at different parts of a level, can't you?

coyo7e wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

Well, playtesters reported it but were fired for being afraid of innovation.

Will you back up these inflammatory statements with any facts, or are you just going to troll a thread for a game you don't want to play?

I'm not entirely sure where you get "don't want to play" out of my pretty steady position of "definitely going to buy once the price drops," but I think I'll just troll for the time being, thanks.

kuddles wrote:

It was just a joke, dude, and a clever one at that. Calm down.

Thanks, kuddles.

Certis wrote:
-4 levels? Seriously? After 10 years?

The whole "10 years" sentiment is really misleading. They've done both Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes in that period. Too Human had a long development, but not that much longer than most AAA games. Now whether or not it lives up the to the pedigree is a different story.

Yes, but somehow 4 levels never seems acceptable in a AAA title. I expect more variety then that. Too Humans development timeline makes the weak story and lack of levels unacceptable - they had years to come up with great story and location ideas. Stories are one of the few things that are outside of technology.

-4 looooooooooooo|~|oooooooooooooooong levels... Seriously? Some of us cannot game for 4 hours straight to knock out a level.
Do you mean online? In single player is autosaves as you go, picking up where you left off when you come back. In multiplayer you can start at different parts of a level, can't you?

Yes, mostly online. Still, it's nice to have shorter levels as those are natural stopping points. Most of the games I quit playing without finishing are because I took a break in the middle of a level, didn't get back on the game for some time (due to RL or ADD) and when I go back, since I am in the middle, I forgot why I am where I am and I lose interest.

Shoal07 wrote:

Yes, but somehow 4 levels never seems acceptable in a AAA title.
...
-4 looooooooooooo|~|oooooooooooooooong levels...

While I agree that a bit more variety in environment would be nice, it is hard to argue both that there are only 4 levels, and that the levels are too long, essentially saying that there is both not enough content and too much content. I liked the level size of the first and third level (I haven't played the fourth level yet), and will agree that the second level was dramatically overlong. Assuming they go ahead with the trilogy plans, I hope that the next game learns the lesson of more, smaller levels, from both a gameplay and a marketing point of view.

Overall, I'm really enjoying the playtime. When I finish the last level in campaign mode, I'll try to summarize my feeling more verbosely.

Atras wrote:
Shoal07 wrote:

Yes, but somehow 4 levels never seems acceptable in a AAA title.
...
-4 looooooooooooo|~|oooooooooooooooong levels...

While I agree that a bit more variety in environment would be nice, it is hard to argue both that there are only 4 levels, and that the levels are too long, essentially saying that there is both not enough content and too much content. I liked the level size of the first and third level (I haven't played the fourth level yet), and will agree that the second level was dramatically overlong. Assuming they go ahead with the trilogy plans, I hope that the next game learns the lesson of more, smaller levels, from both a gameplay and a marketing point of view.

Overall, I'm really enjoying the playtime. When I finish the last level in campaign mode, I'll try to summarize my feeling more verbosely.

The problem with 4 long levels is not quantity but quality. The second level gets very old to look at after a while and you just want to be done with it. You could have had the same amount of playtime in 2 or 3 completely unique levels instead of 1 long one. This also gives you more opportunity to expand on the story instead of just having one goal that takes you forever to reach.

Long levels are nothing more then stretching content out. They use the same textures, creatures, and level qualities (like jump gates everywhere) over and over and over - it feels artificial. It would be different if this were a 40+ hour game, but it's not.

Certis wrote:

The whole "10 years" sentiment is really misleading. They've done both Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes in that period. Too Human had a long development, but not that much longer than most AAA games. Now whether or not it lives up the to the pedigree is a different story.

They've also stated that the current iteration of Too Human has only been in development about 3 years, since they shipped Twin Snakes for Gamecube. The version originally shown on the PS1 10 years ago was a prototype that never went into full production and the shift to Gamecube and I believe Xbox 1 that have been talked about were announced but never started. The idea of Too Human has existed for 10 years but the game has not been in active development anywhere near that long. That said, it doesn't even play like a 3 year game in many ways. I was gone for the weekend and only got through the first level last week. Given the varying views I've heard on where things go from there, I'm anxious to get more time in tonight.

Did anyone run into a disease/poison weapon on the second level? It seems that sometimes after one of the Light Polarity monsters hits me with his rockets, I become surrounded by an explosion cloud. At least it looks like an explosion, because it starts orange and fades to black and it does this every 2 seconds until I die or return to Aesir through the start menu. I think getting hit with rockets again may also reset it. Most likely it's a bug, but I'm open to the possibility that they put an uncurable, never-fading poison effect into a game where you can't heal yourself.

Trophy Husband wrote:

When I do it doesn't bother me at all because the death penalty is so minimal. I think there are some people who take it personal when they die. Not being all that good, I go in knowing I'll die a bunch. When it happens it's no big deal. I've softenend them up and I'm back with full health to kick some ass.

It would be a different story if I had to start farther back in the level, or if I had to keep getting my ass kicked by the same boss.

I think if I adopted the same attitude towards dying, I'd find myself a lot less frustrated and enjoying the game more. I think if I can accept it as part of the process, then I'll be able to relax more.

Yoyoson wrote:

Did anyone run into a disease/poison weapon on the second level? It seems that sometimes after one of the Light Polarity monsters hits me with his rockets, I become surrounded by an explosion cloud. At least it looks like an explosion, because it starts orange and fades to black and it does this every 2 seconds until I die or return to Aesir through the start menu. I think getting hit with rockets again may also reset it. Most likely it's a bug, but I'm open to the possibility that they put an uncurable, never-fading poison effect into a game where you can't heal yourself.

Nah it's a status effect. Means you're on fire. It'll fade, but it takes like 2 minutes and generally will take you to half health from full. Bioengineers can clear it (and all other negative effects).

Sinatar wrote:
Yoyoson wrote:

Did anyone run into a disease/poison weapon on the second level? It seems that sometimes after one of the Light Polarity monsters hits me with his rockets, I become surrounded by an explosion cloud. At least it looks like an explosion, because it starts orange and fades to black and it does this every 2 seconds until I die or return to Aesir through the start menu. I think getting hit with rockets again may also reset it. Most likely it's a bug, but I'm open to the possibility that they put an uncurable, never-fading poison effect into a game where you can't heal yourself.

Nah it's a status effect. Means you're on fire. It'll fade, but it takes like 2 minutes and generally will take you to half health from full. Bioengineers can clear it (and all other negative effects).

Yeah, status effects stay on you for quite a while (I don't know about 2 minutes, but it's possible I guess). However, they don't appear to stack, otherwise the burn from one volley of status effect missles would melt you in about 10 seconds.

Certis wrote:

Do you mean online? In single player is autosaves as you go, picking up where you left off when you come back. In multiplayer you can start at different parts of a level, can't you?

If you complete an area of a map in co-op, you get credit. So you could co-op through each mission chunk sort of episodically, and still unlock all the cyberspace abiltiies before you complete level 1 in campaign (and thus burn off the nidhogg purple fog etc without playing through campaign twice.)

Even after playing through two of the maps fully probably 5 or 6 times, they're still very long, but it gets more and more strategic as you gain abilities to avoid dying moer often.

Yoyoson wrote:

Did anyone run into a disease/poison weapon on the second level? It seems that sometimes after one of the Light Polarity monsters hits me with his rockets, I become surrounded by an explosion cloud. At least it looks like an explosion, because it starts orange and fades to black and it does this every 2 seconds until I die or return to Aesir through the start menu. I think getting hit with rockets again may also reset it. Most likely it's a bug, but I'm open to the possibility that they put an uncurable, never-fading poison effect into a game where you can't heal yourself.

Naw, tons of enemies have polarity effects that aren't as immediately visible as some of the others, and often they'll combine effects in co-op. Missile enemies' missiles will freeze/slow/immolate/poison/etc you, and you won't always see a missile blow up behind you but it will be within range.

Also, use polarity enemies to YOUR advantage as well. Most of them hurt their own allies with their attacks and death explosions, and if you launch and roll away or shoot them with the correct type fo ranged (you are carrying a laser slug and plasma ranged weapon AT ALL TIMES, right?) it's hilariously easy to mop up huge piles of enemies, or take out otherwise "impossible" opponents such as trolls that are immune to ranged but slow+freeze you when you get close.

Also, if you aren't abusing Fierce attacks, then it's no wonder you hate fighting bosses with a Berserker.

Yoyoson wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

When I do it doesn't bother me at all because the death penalty is so minimal. I think there are some people who take it personal when they die. Not being all that good, I go in knowing I'll die a bunch. When it happens it's no big deal. I've softenend them up and I'm back with full health to kick some ass.

It would be a different story if I had to start farther back in the level, or if I had to keep getting my ass kicked by the same boss.

I think if I adopted the same attitude towards dying, I'd find myself a lot less frustrated and enjoying the game more. I think if I can accept it as part of the process, then I'll be able to relax more.

Plus after your 100th death you get the Valkyrie achievement. Woohoo!!

Yoyoson wrote:

Wow. This is extremely frustrating. I am playing as the berserker and I've passed a point in the middle of the second level where I can't get through more than 2 fights without dying. The worst part is when I'm asked to go into a fight with only 1% of my health bar left.

Act 2 IS tough for Berserkers, but not impossible. Use your fierce and finisher attacks often - fierce attacks on the colored goblins who are immune to ranged damage, for trolls jump then perform a finisher.

You've got a tough starter class, no doubt about it. I'd be happy to jump in with some co-op if you want.

souldaddy wrote:

Act 2 IS tough for Berserkers, but not impossible. Use your fierce and finisher attacks often - fierce attacks on the colored goblins who are immune to ranged damage, for trolls jump then perform a finisher.

You've got a tough starter class, no doubt about it. I'd be happy to jump in with some co-op if you want.

I was getting owned in SP, but I respec'ed to go the middle skill branch and maxed the battle cry. It gives +50% movement speed and knockback when active. I also topped out the first right branch ability which gives a 50% chance to channel last damage taken into the next attack. Now I pinball around the melee guys without getting touched and my combo meter is always topped up. I can run with my crazy speed and drop ruiners on the ranged guys to take them out. And being cybernetic gives me a cannon which generally cuts through the ogres, I just stay away from their blast range while I take out the minions first.

I went from getting slaughtered on the World 2 arena discs to walking all over Hod at the end.