10 years of Rainbow Six.

mateo wrote:

I really think that Ubisoft is missing the mark on these games. The world does not need a Tom Clancy branded Gears of War (you know, run, duck behind cover, blow stuff up, use a chainsaw)-there is a real paucity of tactical shooters out there, and they own the rights to the #1 brand.

That's pretty much my argument to a T. I'm not saying GoW is bad, or that GoW shouldn't exist, or games like it. And I know I can't control the market. But when the "tactical" shooter isn't all that far off from being GoW, I make a frowny face.

Perhaps I am just old but I always thought one of the draws for this series and games in general was that due to the realism simulated it made you feel like you really were a commando, or a pilot. The fact that it made you learn and make smart decisions instead of just hosing down a room with bullets was where the fun was.

I miss that from my games now, today it just seems all the kiddies want to do is have 2 hours of fun learn nothing and move on to the next mind numbing experience. When I first played Rainbow six I was still serving in the military and was suprised at how the game rewarded intelligent movement, conceilment and planning. It made it much more real for me thus much more enjoyable.

Someone was actually complaining about having a manual the size of war and peace. Dang I wish games were as complex today perhaps I might even enjoy them for more than 30 seconds. I can remember when almost all games came with 200 page manuals, cloth maps, catalogs and all kinds of goodies. Man i miss the old days some times

I really liked Rainbow 6: Rogue Spear. As somebody else already mentioned, the sense of accomplishment after finishing a mission or the whole campaign is great. With modern games it's often "Whoo, I just beat the campaign. Just like 90% of the few million players out there who bought the game." It's nothing special, if the game is too easy. Hell, beating most games on a higher difficulty level isn't that special because it boils down to trial and error until you pass with enough hit points left (It basically rewards patience. Try it often enough and you will get lucky).
Having to plan ahead and really think tactically (or even strategically) makes a game that much more rewarding. (I'm still waiting for a true real time STRATEGY game. Supreme Commander still isn't quite there)

Botswana wrote:

Ten years ago I loved Jagged Alliance 2, but that's one slow paced game, at least if you're doing it right and not getting everyone blown away. I've realized that I just don't have the time or patience to dedicate to that kind of game anymore. My job is already fairly demanding and so for some odd reason I want to spend my limited leisure hours doing something that resembles, and hang on because this is radical, leisure.

I get why some people like that style of game, what surprises me is how quickly people resort to the "dumb" argument because it doesn't have mass appeal.

It's funny, I'm replaying JA2 (fan patch 1.13) and I'm having trouble pulling myself away from the game to do pesky things like work and sleep. Leisure is, naturally, completely subjective.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Botswana wrote:

Ten years ago I loved Jagged Alliance 2, but that's one slow paced game, at least if you're doing it right and not getting everyone blown away. I've realized that I just don't have the time or patience to dedicate to that kind of game anymore. My job is already fairly demanding and so for some odd reason I want to spend my limited leisure hours doing something that resembles, and hang on because this is radical, leisure.

I get why some people like that style of game, what surprises me is how quickly people resort to the "dumb" argument because it doesn't have mass appeal.

It's funny, I'm replaying JA2 (fan patch 1.13) and I'm having trouble pulling myself away from the game to do pesky things like work and sleep. Leisure is, naturally, completely subjective.

Oops, I seem to have mentally crossed the streams there. I never saw JA2 as slog myself, but I totally understood what people didn't like about the game.

However, not liking the same game as me does not make them dumb.

It's funny, I'm replaying JA2 (fan patch 1.13) and I'm having trouble pulling myself away from the game to do pesky things like work and sleep. Leisure is, naturally, completely subjective.

Glad you're liking it Quintin... 1.13 definitely adds a ton to the game. I'm finally getting some decent gear myself.

I miss Rouge Spear so so much. I really hope that rumor that theya re going to go back to tactical is true. Those games were that absolute best. I will never forget the mission where I have to sneak into the house in the winter and steal data, while being quiet. It was so awesome finishing that mission.

Rouge Spear is on my PC top 15 games.

Rainbow Six should not be Rambo Six. GO BACK TO TACTICAL!

It was also the first game where I was introduced to clan matches.

I was running AOL and Roger Wilco on my Dell 550 at the time! Wow how time changes.

It was one of my first PC games and introduced me to online play. I was a PC gamer from then on. I'm getting all nostalgic here.

TempestBlayze wrote:

I miss Rouge Spear so so much.

Rouge Spear is on my PC top 15 games.

It would not have been the same if the spear was blue.

I think I'm with most of those in this thread who wish for a return to the original formula. The planning aspect of the game, and the fact that you could actually run the missions hands-off (in later versions), made for a really unique and challenging experience. To me, the fact that you didn't have to be the best FPS gamer to play and enjoy these games was a big selling point.

My real complaint about the series: stealth missions. In the rest of the missions, you could sustain a few deaths to your team and still complete the mission. On the stealth missions, the mission ended if you were spotted. Even with the heartbeat sensors, it could be very difficult to detect the enemies, and stay outside of their vision.

See... I enjoyed the games but never really did anything with the planning part. It was always an annoying delay that kept me from the fun part of the game. I was pretty happy to see it go really.

I preferred Ghost Recon's system better, where you had the big map and could order your cohorts around from there in real time, but didn't have to meticulously plan their route through the level beforehand.

One of those sticky little gaming memories for me was from the original two games. When your teams were told to be stealthy you'd hear a silenced burst of rounds and then a whispered "Tango down" without having seen any of it.

I love it when a plan comes together. Of course, the rose colored haze suppresses the dozens of plans that didn't come together

I'm sort of surprised that no one has mentioned Ghost Recon. I don't thing the single players was as good at R6 but the multiplayer was fantastic. I used to be on a ladder with a group called the Mango Platoon and we held the top spot for several weeks. I miss being able to one shot people with a well placed headshot.

I remember with distinct clarity one of my first single player missions in Rogue Spear. We had successfully neutralized all tangos outside of a ruined building and were getting ready to storm it to rescue hostages. I had tried the mission dozens of times, and this was the furthest I had gotten. I was nervous with anticipation as I thought the last part of this mission was going to be a cake walk. After all, we had flashed and cleared so many rooms at this point, that it was a natural to us (myself and the computer) as breathing. I ordered my guys to stack up and was going to let them proceed with the room clearing, since I didn't want to screw anything up this far into the mission. I hit the reload button and gave the order to flash and clear. My teammate acknowledged the order and peaked around the corner into the room. I then see him grab a frag grenade from his belt and begin to lob it into the room. I stared in sheer horror at what he was doing and tried to gun him down to stop him, but I was still in the process of reloading. The fresh ammo clip was finally locked in place and I raked my brain dead teammate with automatic fire to stop him from killing the hostages.

Too late.

As his body was falling to the ground in a heap, the frag grenade sailed through the air into the room with the hostages. The grenade went off and I got the prompt message that I had failed the mission. I slammed my head into the keyboard and let out a slight whimper.

Fortunately, Rogue Spear was one of our most played games during those days at LAN parties. We would play that game until the sun came up and enjoyed every minute of it.

Certis wrote:

I love it when a plan comes together. Of course, the rose colored haze suppresses the dozens of plans that didn't come together ;)

My favorite thing to do in the game was to spend hours at the planning screen. I would create these elaborate plans, having my guys go from room to room, flashing, fragging, sniping, whatever I thought it would take. Then I'd load up the level. But here is the catch, I wouldn't take control of any of the guys. I would let them run through the entire level following my plan. All I would do was hit the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, etc orders to allow for synchronization between the teams.

Let's just say, I should never plan missions in real life.

Dr. J, had your teammates run out of flashbangs?

One of my favorite memories form the series was an example of managing to pull all the teams to work in unison.

Setting: Oil Tanker

I split my crew up into three two man teams. Two assault teams with suppressed automatic weapons, and flashbangs. One sniper team with a sniper and a spotter.

I have two objectives, stop the terrorists on the bridge from detonating a bomb and secure the hostages. My sniper hunkers down near the insertion point, acquires his target and does what snipers do best, he waits.

Quickly and quietly my assault teams start moving across the tankers deck, one team to the port, one team to the starboard. Any tangos in they encounter fall before they have a chance to raise an alarm. Upon reaching the ships cabins they begin to methodically work their way up to the bridge, floor by floor.

Finally they reach the bridge and stack up behind a closed door. Heartbeat monitors confirm what my sniper has already reported. Two tangos on the bridge. I give the order to fire-at-will, and for a brief second the bridge erupts with shattered glass and gunfire. The snipers bullet finds the lead terrorists skull in the same instant that the door opens and my assault team drops the second terrorist with a three round burst to the torso.

Seconds later the few remaining rooms on the ship are cleared, the hostages rescued, and we're all on the way to the extraction zone.

I must have played that mission a few dozen times, in a dozen different configurations. Sometimes I would take the role of the sniper delivering orders to my comrades and listening to their progress on the radio. Then engaging the unsuspecting enemy with a single bullet and letting the assault teams clear the rest of the level. Other times I'd try to run it lone wolf style with just my assault rifle to keep me company.

It's been a long time since a single level could capture my imagination in the way that that tanker did.

I don't know whether or not to be happy or sad.

Botswana wrote:
93_confirmed wrote:

but I guess intelligent gaming in that regard is a thing of yesteryear. It's too bad we reached this point and I can only imagine that it's going to get worse from here.

Ah yes, that took longer than I thought. The game market is just too "dumb" to support this kind of game anymore.

Actually, what a lot of people describe, the pre-mission planning and everything else doesn't sound like a game, it sounds like work. I already have a job, thanks ever so much. I know some people like this sort of thing. Ten years ago I loved Jagged Alliance 2, but that's one slow paced game, at least if you're doing it right and not getting everyone blown away. I've realized that I just don't have the time or patience to dedicate to that kind of game anymore. My job is already fairly demanding and so for some odd reason I want to spend my limited leisure hours doing something that resembles, and hang on because this is radical, leisure.

I get why some people like that style of game, what surprises me is how quickly people resort to the "dumb" argument because it doesn't have mass appeal.

One of the lamest posts I've read in a while. What does your day job have to do with gaming? If the game is too complex and time consuming for you then play something else. The planning is merely an option and not a mandatory gameplay requirement. You could skip it all together and issue commands on the fly instead. Don't want to take care of your men? Fine, let them die and complete the missions yourself and restock your teams with new people afterward.

The fact is the original R6 games had some much more depth, meaning, and tactics than we've seen in any shooter in a while and in my oh so humble opinion, we need more games like that nowadays. "Dumb" was probably the wrong word to use. Instead, I'll say that the mass FPS market has more ADD, lack of patience, and wants a quicker "success" fix than those who played in the 90's. Ubi is too busy worrying about delivering the latest and greatest technology with shiny visuals, "realistic" physics, and "psuedo destructible environments" and I doubt they'll ever take R6 or GR back to it's roots.

I enjoyed Rainbow Six at the time, but honestly found the AI on both sides too lacking to foster anything approaching tactics. You could go through the motions of a SWAT team if you felt like it, but it was more playing pretend than genuinely beneficial to the mission. The only things I miss from the original were the open levels with enemies that all spawned at the beginning rather than as the player neared their locations.

Multiplayer was a different story. Real players made up for AI deficiencies, but that was back in the day when the real challenge was finding a decent server to connect to with less than 56k speeds.

The stories have remained consistently retarded throughout the franchises' history.