I wouldn't compare it to a Camaro but since you test drove it's siblings, I like the Kona N.
How did you feel about the visibility in the Camaro? That is the biggest knock I remember. Did you think it was different enough from your 428 to make it worthwhile to buy?
How about a Subaru BRZ? Maybe an older Corvette? Just personally, I don't really get the muscle car thing. I associate them with dudes just out of high school who've got their first steady paycheck.
Camaros specifically I associate with the new police recruits getting their training at the local academy.
How about a Subaru BRZ? Maybe an older Corvette? Just personally, I don't really get the muscle car thing. I associate them with dudes just out of high school who've got their first steady paycheck.
Camaros specifically I associate with the new police recruits getting their training at the local academy.
When I see a corvette, I think potbellied divorcee.
When I see a camero, I think mullet and porn stache.
Buy what you like. I like all kinds of stuff. American muscle. Japanese sports cars. European sports sedans. Trucks. Performance SUVs.
I don't worry about stereotypes of the cars I drive. Screw the people that judge you by your car
Unless you drive an Altima with plastic hub caps. Then I know you have bad credit. (I kid, I heard a comedian say that and it stuck in my brain)
How did you feel about the visibility in the Camaro? That is the biggest knock I remember. Did you think it was different enough from your 428 to make it worthwhile to buy?
So my previous GM experience is two different Cadillac CTS Coupes which had very similar visibility to the Camaro. I’m pretty used to it as a result. But also I’m making sure if I do buy one, it’s the 2SS so I get blind spot monitors. Which I actually miss on my 428.
And yeah, very different experience from the 428. Obviously manual and auto is always a huge difference but while the 428 is a quick enough car, I do get frustrated with the turbo lag in situations where I want to accelerate quick. That’s why I prefer natural aspiration in this next purchase.
How about a Subaru BRZ? Maybe an older Corvette? Just personally, I don't really get the muscle car thing. I associate them with dudes just out of high school who've got their first steady paycheck.
Camaros specifically I associate with the new police recruits getting their training at the local academy.
I drove an FRS back in 2015 and it was fun but the driving experience is a bit too similar to my Miata. Corvettes, each generation has something that kinda turns me off. 7th gen might be okay but they’re a bit expensive and I wanted four seats since the Miata has 2.
Buy what you like. I like all kinds of stuff. American muscle. Japanese sports cars. European sports sedans. Trucks. Performance SUVs.
I don't worry about stereotypes of the cars I drive. Screw the people that judge you by your car :)
Agree totally. It’s a large spectrum of experiences and you only get so many chances. I’m middle aged now, have a good job, decent house, good five year old daughter. I drive my old Miata around, hairdresser’s car that it is, with nails that my daughter sloppily painted a few nights before. I am beyond anyone else’s judgment.
As to why I’m thinking muscle car (pony car, technically) is just something I’ve never experienced. I’ve had NA V6s, turbo 4s, NA 4s, manuals and automatics. Never a V8. And they’re disappearing so I want to get that experience while I still can.
polq37 wrote:How about a Subaru BRZ? Maybe an older Corvette? Just personally, I don't really get the muscle car thing. I associate them with dudes just out of high school who've got their first steady paycheck.
Camaros specifically I associate with the new police recruits getting their training at the local academy.
When I see a corvette, I think potbellied divorcee.
When I see a camero, I think mullet and porn stache.
The '69 Camaro was one of the best looking muscle cars of all time. So was the C3 Corvette. Unfortunately the 70s and 80s happened and muscle cars were ruined for a few generations.
The C8 Corvette is a good-looking European super-car without the pain of buying a European super-car. The new Camaro... not so much.
I got excited about the C8 Corvette when it was announced but the more I see them, it’s just a bit too much for me. No manual is also a deal breaker in a car I’m buying strictly for fun driving.
Agree about the C3. By far my favorite classic car. But yeah they feel awfully sluggish and sloppy due to the malaise era they came from.
Have to agree to disagree about the 2010+ Camaro. I’ve loved how they look since they first came out and it feels the most buttoned down of the modern pony/muscle cars. Challenger felt huge and Mustang felt cheap by comparison. Just my opinion of course.
Back in '10 or '11 I was considering a new "muscle" car. Mustangs don't interest me, so I drove a 2010 Camaro SS and a 2010 Plum Crazy R/T Challenger.
The Challenger looked, sounded, and drove like an older muscle car. I loved it. The Camaro looked weak, sounded weak, but drove better as a car in general. The console area of the Camaro looked plasticky and cheap.
Some things happened so I didn't get either, but nothing could have convinced me to buy that Camaro back then (or now). I eventually got a Challenger R/T later on and loved it. I have never been a big fan of C/D/P, not even the old Mopars, but I loved that Challenger. I had to trade it to get the truck to pull our camper. Sad day.
As for the '69 Camaro mentioned above - a gal in my wife's class in High School had a '69 with beautiful charcoal gray paint, a 6-pack, and cherry bombs that sounded soooo sweet. Dream F'n Car. Her younger brother had a '67 El Camino that was amazing, too.
-BEP
Back in '10 or '11 I was considering a new "muscle" car. Mustangs don't interest me, so I drove a 2010 Camaro SS and a 2010 Plum Crazy R/T Challenger.
The Challenger looked, sounded, and drove like an older muscle car. I loved it. The Camaro looked weak, sounded weak, but drove better as a car in general. The console area of the Camaro looked plasticky and cheap.
Some things happened so I didn't get either, but nothing could have convinced me to buy that Camaro back then (or now). I eventually got a Challenger R/T later on and loved it. I have never been a big fan of C/D/P, not even the old Mopars, but I loved that Challenger. I had to trade it to get the truck to pull our camper. Sad day.
As for the '69 Camaro mentioned above - a gal in my wife's class in High School had a '69 with beautiful charcoal gray paint, a 6-pack, and cherry bombs that sounded soooo sweet. Dream F'n Car. Her younger brother had a '67 El Camino that was amazing, too.
-BEP
I haven’t driven a 5th gen (2010-2015) but the 6th (2016-2024) did not feel cheap or sound weak, at all. It’s also widely regarded as a far superior car to the 5th gen.
The 455 HP felt easier to actually apply than the 485 in the Challenger I drove.
On that note, I got something dangerous today… the okay from the wife to get a Camaro. She thought they were dumb in pictures but seeing in person and feeling it drive, she was sold.
My dad drove a C2 Corvette back in the day. Brand new off the lot.
If I ever hit the lottery, I'd get him one.
If I'm being honest I think all Camaros are cool
I drive (and love) bad cars though
As to why I’m thinking muscle car (pony car, technically) is just something I’ve never experienced. I’ve had NA V6s, turbo 4s, NA 4s, manuals and automatics. Never a V8. And they’re disappearing so I want to get that experience while I still can.
Wanting to experience and enjoy an impractical car is the best reason to get one
On that note, I got something dangerous today… the okay from the wife to get a Camaro. She thought they were dumb in pictures but seeing in person and feeling it drive, she was sold.
WIN!!!
-BEP
I went to a BMW promotional event last Friday, got to drive 12 cars, did 9 laps around a little autocross course they put together.
I really really enjoyed the autocross, so I’m signing up for an educational track day in July and an autocross lesson in August.
Anyone here done stuff like this? I’m curious for impressions and the like.
I went to a BMW promotional event last Friday, got to drive 12 cars, did 9 laps around a little autocross course they put together.
I really really enjoyed the autocross, so I’m signing up for an educational track day in July and an autocross lesson in August.
Anyone here done stuff like this? I’m curious for impressions and the like.
I took the advanced driving course at Summit Point.
Anyone here done stuff like this? I’m curious for impressions and the like.
I've done a bunch of HPDE - High Performance Driver Education - events. Basically a "drive your car around a race track with an instructor in the passenger seat. Probably over 100 days, mainly with local Audi clubs and Hooked On Driving.
Driving on a race track is very different than driving on a street. Much safer until you start exploring the limits of traction When you first start doing this however fast you think you're going, you're not going fast, so slow down, listen to your instructor and:
- concentrate on your line
- brake before the turn while still going in a straight line
- in a corner, outside/apex/outside. Don't accelerate before the apex
- don't turn for the apex until you can see through the apex to where you'll track out
the last two points are "mostly" true - your instructor will tell you about any corners for which this isn't (mainly second apexes in a chicane) - and most of the off track excursions I've seen happen are when the driver failed to do one or the other.
Some common misconceptions about taking your car on the track:
- no, you don't need a fast car to get a low from the experience
- no, you won't crash (probably) and if you do go off the track the worst you'll experience is a flat tire (usually)
- no, your tires won't be ruined after a single day. My very sticky and soft tires are good for 10+ track days
Feel free to ask any questions!!
I'd go for it!
Blind_Evil wrote:Anyone here done stuff like this? I’m curious for impressions and the like.
I've done a bunch of HPDE - High Performance Driver Education - events. Basically a "drive your car around a race track with an instructor in the passenger seat. Probably over 100 days, mainly with local Audi clubs and Hooked On Driving.
Driving on a race track is very different than driving on a street. Much safer until you start exploring the limits of traction When you first start doing this however fast you think you're going, you're not going fast, so slow down, listen to your instructor and:
- concentrate on your line
- brake before the turn while still going in a straight line
- in a corner, outside/apex/outside. Don't accelerate before the apex
- don't turn for the apex until you can see through the apex to where you'll track outthe last two points are "mostly" true - your instructor will tell you about any corners for which this isn't (mainly second apexes in a chicane) - and most of the off track excursions I've seen happen are when the driver failed to do one or the other.
Some common misconceptions about taking your car on the track:
- no, you don't need a fast car to get a low from the experience
- no, you won't crash (probably) and if you do go off the track the worst you'll experience is a flat tire (usually)
- no, your tires won't be ruined after a single day. My very sticky and soft tires are good for 10+ track daysFeel free to ask any questions!!
I'd go for it!
All excellent points.
I would add that the most fun you can have with your clothes on is to take a "slow" car to the track and make it go fast. Perfect examples of "slow" cars are stock Mazda Miatas or Ford Focuses. You can still get in plenty of trouble with either, but not like you would with a car that is beyond your ability. I have seen way too many folks with more $ than sense spin out a Corvette or M-series on the track because they had more power than they could responsibly use.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
I’d probably be taking my BMW 428i out, which I intuit to be a good car for my skill level. Capable, with a sharp handling package, but reasonable horsepower (255ish).
I have a stock, manual Miata, but I want to try with an automatic for my first runs.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
I’d probably be taking my BMW 428i out, which I intuit to be a good car for my skill level. Capable, with a sharp handling package, but reasonable horsepower (255ish).
I have a stock, manual Miata, but I want to try with an automatic for my first runs.
Neither is a bad choice. The Miata is the classic track car and you will likely find an ENORMOUS user group in your track community that will help you out. The BMW clubs are also pretty active too, but Miata folks are special.
I went to a BMW promotional event last Friday, got to drive 12 cars, did 9 laps around a little autocross course they put together.
I really really enjoyed the autocross, so I’m signing up for an educational track day in July and an autocross lesson in August.
Anyone here done stuff like this? I’m curious for impressions and the like.
I autocrossed for several years back maybe 15-20 years ago. Was a lot of fun without significant risk to my daily at the time (350Z).
I have the other side of what Moggy said. I have been autocrossing (and rallycrossing) for many years but haven't taken the leap to the track. Autocross is a great way to get out and test the limits of your daily driver regardless of it's speed. If you just want to go out, have fun, and learn a little, then either car is great.
If you are serious about wanting to become competitive, then I would not recommend the BMW for a starter car; not because it isn't a good car but because it might be too good to start learning in. If the car is so good that it can cover for your mistakes as a driver it makes it harder to learn not to make the mistake. I honestly feel like even the na/nb Miata is a little fast for a starter car, but if you are interested in RWD there aren't a lot of options for a low power car.
Whatever you choose to do in motorsports, come humble and ready to learn and you will have fun.
Nah, I’m not interested in being competitive. I just really enjoy driving fast and want to learn to do it better in a safe environment. Explore the limits of the cars and whatnot.
You never know what will happen but I doubt that will change. I feel like I’m also a bit old for a first timer (40) to ever get serious/competitive.
I've done the thing where you rent a car a few times and it was one of the most fun things I've ever experienced. I did the Porsche Experience at their track in Atlanta and I drove Porsches around Atlanta Motorsports Park. I want to get a track car and join AMP some kinda terrible but I can't justify the cost right now. When I finally have my kids out of college I'll be one of those old guys that buys more power than he can drive. Ha
I've done the thing where you rent a car a few times and it was one of the most fun things I've ever experienced. I did the Porsche Experience at their track in Atlanta and I drove Porsches around Atlanta Motorsports Park. I want to get a track car and join AMP some kinda terrible but I can't justify the cost right now. When I finally have my kids out of college I'll be one of those old guys that buys more power than he can drive. Ha
lol. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to learn to drive a slow car fast first, but you do you.
Nah, I’m not interested in being competitive. I just really enjoy driving fast and want to learn to do it better in a safe environment. Explore the limits of the cars and whatnot.
EverythingsTentative wrote:I'll be one of those old guys that buys more power than he can drive. Ha
lol. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to learn to drive a slow car fast first, but you do you.
I think it depends. If you are serious about developing skills and/or being competitive then slow car fast is going to get you there much faster, but even then it isn't necessarily the only way to go. If you just want to have fun, and maybe learn a bit, do what you want.
I feel like I’m also a bit old for a first timer (40) to ever get serious/competitive.
Pro level competitive? yeah you're almost certainly too old to be able to get there. Most of them started in karts at single digit ages. Nationally competitive amateur racing? There's a good chance you won't make it to the winners circle (though that's true for those who start much younger too), but locally competitive amateur autocross is definitely achievable if you set your mind to it.
That said, as I stated above, race what you want to race. Don't worry about competing with anyone other than yourself to start with, have fun, and if you are bitten by the bug and want to get more competitive, only then should you worry about what to do to achieve that. My local club has a regular that has a first get Viper and is usually among the slowest run times, but he gets out there, enjoys his car, and everyone respects him for showing up, and driving his car to *his* limit even though it's nowhere near the car's limit.
When I started I went hard on the slow car fast, partly because I wanted to learn, but mostly because I was a kid just out of highschool, and I could only afford the slow car, and not even the car (or few allowable mods) to be even locally competitive in the slowest autocross class. I just focused on improving myself, and when I finally did get into a remotely competitive car, I found I was doing very well in the small local club I was mostly running with. When I jumped into the larger regional club with many nationally competitive drivers, I still got steamrolled, but all of it is fun.
stuff
Yeah. All of that.
Also, it is ironic, but the more car you get, the less competitive the amateur field. Placing in a SCCA Spec Miata race is a shitton harder than it is in Porsche club race filled with dermatologist hobby racers.
Pay 2 win! Lol
I drove the following:
2018 Camaro 2SS convertible and coupe
2020 WRX STI
2018 Civic Type R
2013 Challenger SRT-8
2019 Mustang Bullitt
2023 Elantra N
2020 Veloster N
2016 BMW M235iAll manual gearboxes.
I drove a 2023 Toyota GR86 on Monday. It’s such an excellent car, but I can’t justify it. It’s just too dynamically similar to my Miata.
Two weeks before that, drove a GR Corolla. I don’t see what the fuss is about? I guess you gotta be on good open roads or track to really pull the fun out of it.
Tried to drive a few manual Minis but they were under contract by the time I got there. So if you want a manual Mini, I guess move quick.
Blind_Evil wrote:I drove the following:
2018 Camaro 2SS convertible and coupe
2020 WRX STI
2018 Civic Type R
2013 Challenger SRT-8
2019 Mustang Bullitt
2023 Elantra N
2020 Veloster N
2016 BMW M235iAll manual gearboxes.
I drove a 2023 Toyota GR86 on Monday. It’s such an excellent car, but I can’t justify it. It’s just too dynamically similar to my Miata.
Two weeks before that, drove a GR Corolla. I don’t see what the fuss is about? I guess you gotta be on good open roads or track to really pull the fun out of it.
Tried to drive a few manual Minis but they were under contract by the time I got there. So if you want a manual Mini, I guess move quick.
I took the course with my 08 Cooper S and I can tell you why it was hard to book time on Minis. That car is a hell of a lot of fun to drive and it is a lot harder to get in expensive trouble with it than pretty much any other car on your list. Very grippy puller so you are very unlikely to lose traction unless you are doing something truly stupid and most mistakes you make can be undone by simply stopping what got you in trouble to begin with.
Of the cars you drove, I would probably say the WRX STi would be the one I would enjoy the most. That car is designed for rally and autocross.
I’m very curious to drive one but an actual purchase is pretty unlikely. They’re high on the list of cars my wife absolutely loathes
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