Now she's in the doghouse

Paleocon wrote:

I guess the reason I am willing to go through with this is because I remember what sort of a jealous knucklehead I was when I was younger and dating women that were more "experienced" than I was (re: Chasing Amy). And I'm pretty aware of how irritating that knowledge can be. She admits to being pretty naive from that standpoint and I'm hoping that she sort of grows out of this.

Perhaps I'm the one being naive.

I hate giving advice and certainly wouldn't think to offer recommendations but a bit of relationship wisdom that's really stuck with me is to be with someone because of who they are, not who you think they could be.

Trophy Husband wrote:

Everything's been said already so I'll try to be brief. You're both wrong.

Privacy ends with the wedding vows. If you want to make the distinction that you're not married yet, then you're picking nits.

I could not disagree more. It's not about hiding things from your spouse, its about trust. Trust means not rooting through your significant other's emails to see what they were up to before you met them. I would never, ever, go through Shawn's emails or diary or other personal stuff like that, because we're still two individuals, and he absolutely deserves privacy. Marriage is a partnership, not some kind of freaky mind meld.

I'd put her "no privacy" claim to the test. The next time she goes to the bathroom start going through her purse.

Brennil wrote:

Marriage is a partnership, not some kind of freaky mind meld.

You're forgetting all those trekkies who get married in Vulcan ceremonies, complete with requisite mind meld at the end.

And by the way, I agree with you. Even in marriage there needs to be some privacy and separation of identity.

Brennil wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Everything's been said already so I'll try to be brief. You're both wrong.

Privacy ends with the wedding vows. If you want to make the distinction that you're not married yet, then you're picking nits.

I could not disagree more. It's not about hiding things from your spouse, its about trust. Trust means not rooting through your significant other's emails to see what they were up to before you met them. I would never, ever, go through Shawn's emails or diary or other personal stuff like that, because we're still two individuals, and he absolutely deserves privacy. Marriage is a partnership, not some kind of freaky mind meld.

Certis has a diary?

Brennil wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Everything's been said already so I'll try to be brief. You're both wrong.

Privacy ends with the wedding vows. If you want to make the distinction that you're not married yet, then you're picking nits.

I could not disagree more. It's not about hiding things from your spouse, its about trust. Trust means not rooting through your significant other's emails to see what they were up to before you met them. I would never, ever, go through Shawn's emails or diary or other personal stuff like that, because we're still two individuals, and he absolutely deserves privacy. Marriage is a partnership, not some kind of freaky mind meld.

Thank you for putting it into words better than I would have

We all need to keep in mind that Paleo loves this person for his own reasons that are not described in this thread, but they are of sufficient strength to warrant engagement. Suggestions to cut and run are inappropriate because none of us but Paleo can see the full picture.

The notion of enacting better security practices for correspondence addresses a symptom and not the problem. The problem is that the person is willing to violate privacy, not that there are opportunities to do so. Which brings us to the next point. Yes, in any serious relationship like marriage there is an inevitable erosion of privacy simply from the constant contact. However, that does not warrant the willful invasion of privacy that happened in this case. The moment anything other than "sign out" was clicked was the moment of violation. The only way this would have been permissible is if he had previously told her that she could root around in his email.

As Kat pointed out, the whole no returning calls out of anger is problematic. It's not as bad if the reason was that she felt she needed to cool down before being able to discuss things. However the practice of ignoring someone as a punishment would be unhealthy.

The upside is that these problems are potentially soluble. I've seen relationships come back from events as severe as cheating that have had trust restored and have gone beyond stability and now thrive. It requires the capacity and will to change sometimes from both parties.

Unforseen_Power wrote:

I think that privacy could be expected on his own device. But if he left himself logged in on her machine then she should've signed him out.

It's that simple. She had no reason to look through his emails and his account being accessible on her machine is no excuse.

Was there context for why she'd be snooping, or was this 100% out of the blue? Context being something you've done or said in the past, or something she's experienced previously that she hasn't gotten quite over? I don't agree with snooping at all, but usually this behavior is rooted in experience or a lack thereof. I know that would seem to cover all situations.

When I was a younger lad, I remember having a girlfriend that I thought I was passionately in love with, but she was absolutely untrustable and it drove me crazy. When I met my wife-to-be, one of the qualities (of many!) that made me fall for her hook, line and sinker was total trust.

Well, anyways, we all now these 'doghouse' threads are just excuses for each of you to initiate wild 'make-up' sex.

Suggestions to cut and run are inappropriate

I'd agree if he hadn't posted the thread in a public forum =P

I mean, he's not going to break his engagement because some strangers on the internet told him to.

Besides, I think he knows enough about me to know my advice is probably never a good idea for a normal person ; )

Privacy and such aside I find it strange that she has a problem acknowledging your past relationships. Is it me, or isn't that a little, um, odd?

Trophy Husband wrote:

Certis has a diary?

He calls it a journal. It's a journal with unicorns on the cover and a rainbow shaped lock, but a journal.

Besides everyone knows you should keep those in your man bag so no one can read about your secret heart's desires.

LiquidMantis wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Certis has a diary?

He calls it a journal. It's a journal with unicorns on the cover and a rainbow shaped lock, but a journal.

Mebekah wrote:

Privacy and such aside I find it strange that she has a problem acknowledging your past relationships. Is it me, or isn't that a little, um, odd?

It depends on whether or not she believes him that the e-mails weren't being saved, but just buried under a pile of old e-mails. If she still thinks he was saving them and doesn't believe that they were just long forgotten and never deleted, that could be another issue entirely. But I don't think the problem is in acknowledging those relationships existed.

nsmike wrote:
Mebekah wrote:

Privacy and such aside I find it strange that she has a problem acknowledging your past relationships. Is it me, or isn't that a little, um, odd?

It depends on whether or not she believes him that the e-mails weren't being saved, but just buried under a pile of old e-mails. If she still thinks he was saving them and doesn't believe that they were just long forgotten and never deleted, that could be another issue entirely. But I don't think the problem is in acknowledging those relationships existed.

ah.

Yeah, that sucks. The good news is, you did nothing wrong. Heck, you even handled it as lovingly as I could imagine.

Have you talked to her yet about why she felt like she couldn't just ask you if you kept old email from ex's? Obviously she was upset or insecure about something (and I have been there, so I know it can be hard).

Brennil wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Everything's been said already so I'll try to be brief. You're both wrong.

Privacy ends with the wedding vows. If you want to make the distinction that you're not married yet, then you're picking nits.

I could not disagree more. It's not about hiding things from your spouse, its about trust. Trust means not rooting through your significant other's emails to see what they were up to before you met them. I would never, ever, go through Shawn's emails or diary or other personal stuff like that, because we're still two individuals, and he absolutely deserves privacy. Marriage is a partnership, not some kind of freaky mind meld.

I know it's trite, but QFT. Q Mother Fing T.

I don't get this "throw your privacy out the window" line. A marriage is a joining of two "individuals" who absolutely deserve respect, trust, privacy and their own life. It's funny, my wife (as many already know) trains for triathlons yearly and the last couple years the Ironman. Granted she's often bordered on obsessive with her time and I've been a whiner at times about said time. But after working through that stuff what we've come to is that she needs that time and absolutely deserves it. We're not even talking about privacy or her right to her own email here. She deserves the right to go off running and clear her head without me. She deserves a life of her own in addition to the one she shares with me. One doesn't automatically go away when you get married.

By the same token, she respects that I need time with friends, time to game, skateboard, bike, etc.

On a lighter note, I'm imaging (since this has gone on for two multi-page threads now) that somewhere on the Interwebs there's a thread going on ChicLitReadersWithJobs.com or something of the sort where Paleocon's SO is getting similar support as she complains about him.

Mex wrote:
LiquidMantis wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Certis has a diary?

He calls it a journal. It's a journal with unicorns on the cover and a rainbow shaped lock, but a journal.

:lol:

Dear Diary,

Today they teased me again...

I'm with Hunnie, but I'm going to bring up the next step.

Have you guys ever considered getting some outside help in sorting this stuff out? I don't know how you're fixed in that department either clerically or secularly, but taking issues like this and that other thread and talking them out with the help of a third party might be something to consider before you get married. It's not a slam on your relationship, or a magical fix for all problems. But some help getting everyone's expectations set and both of you on the same page when it comes to important stuff like this might be the way to go.

DSGamer wrote:
Mex wrote:
LiquidMantis wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Certis has a diary?

He calls it a journal. It's a journal with unicorns on the cover and a rainbow shaped lock, but a journal.

:lol:

Dear Diary,

Today they teased me again...

:)

Beat me to it DSGamer.

I think the bit where she's jealous of you preserving bits of old relationships is ridiculous. That's part of who you are, and asking you to delete it asking you to destroy a part of yourself.

Paleocon wrote:

She admits to being pretty naive from that standpoint and I'm hoping that she sort of grows out of this.

Wow, is that ever a dangerous little game to play. What if she doesn't? Making a permanent commitment based on the hope that your partner is going to change... I don't even know the right word. Maybe it might make sense to postpone the permanence until she either "grows out of it" or you accept that she isn't going to?

.

Trophy Husband wrote:

Privacy ends with the wedding vows.

That's moronic. As much as I don't like being wildly inflammatory (flammatory?), that's the dumbest thing that's been said in this entire thread.

EDIT: Brennil right some smrt!

Chumpy wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

She admits to being pretty naive from that standpoint and I'm hoping that she sort of grows out of this.

Wow, is that ever a dangerous little game to play. What if she doesn't? Making a permanent commitment based on the hope that your partner is going to change... I don't even know the right word.

Yeah, isn't this what we women get dinged on all the time? Treating men like fixer-uppers, staying with someone in the hopes that he'll change. Maybe you just need to read Cosmo more, Paleo. All this stuff you're going through, it's all covered in there. (Also: Her Plastic Surgery Nightmare, and 12 Tricks to Unleash Your Inner Sex Goddess - Tonight!)

Please tell me you two at least took the Cosmo compatibility quiz!

Paleo,

One thing I don't recall being mentioned in this thread, or your previous one. Could all of this just be the result of her being stressed out/freaking out over the impending nuptials? Not saying this would make what she did right, but that it might be the cause.

DSGamer wrote:
Mex wrote:
LiquidMantis wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Certis has a diary?

He calls it a journal. It's a journal with unicorns on the cover and a rainbow shaped lock, but a journal.

:lol:

Dear Diary,

Today they teased me again...

:)

I should have known better than to think it was safe to drink coffee while reading this thread.

I agree that trust is paramount to a healthy relationship. But doesn't total and complete trust largely eliminate concerns about privacy?

If my wife trusts me completely, she's probably not going to be snooping around my emails or journal or whatever. And if I trust her completely, I'm probably not going to worry about what she would find, or how she would react, if she did.

Provided that we've both earned that trust, the privacy issue becomes a moot point.

There are times when you want to hide things for purposes of surprise. My wife tells me where she hides my presents so I won't go and look.

So I have to admit that when my husband and I were just dating, I thought I would help him clean up his apartment. He is a total pack rat and I am just the opposite. While going through an old box with mail that was 10 years ago, I found a framed picture of a former girlfriend. I have to admit that I was hurt. I didn't know any better and assumed that he must still have some emotional connection with the girl and that's why he never threw it out. I failed to put two and two together and come to the sane conclusion that he didn't even remember he had the picture because he was just a pack rat. He later threw the picture away. Looking back at it now, I can't believe how irrational I was being. I was just insecure and needed some reassurance...

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

Privacy ends with the wedding vows.

That's moronic. As much as I don't like being wildly inflammatory (flammatory?), that's the dumbest thing that's been said in this entire thread.

Dumber than this?

Elysium wrote:

In all practical terms, a marriage ends _your_ privacy as a complete individual and begins your privacy as a couple.

It's the same message, I just didn't state it as well. I'll edit my original post to be less confrontational.

If you don't agree, that's fine, explain your point of view, and be constructive.

"Moronic", and "dumbest thing that's been said in this entire thread" are unnecessary.

Sigsbee wrote:

So I have to admit that when my husband and I were just dating, I thought I would help him clean up his apartment. He is a total pack rat and I am just the opposite. While going through an old box with mail that was 10 years ago, I found a framed picture of a former girlfriend. I have to admit that I was hurt. I didn't know any better and assumed that he must still have some emotional connection with the girl and that's why he never threw it out. I failed to put two and two together and come to the sane conclusion that he didn't even remember he had the picture because he was just a pack rat. He later threw the picture away. Looking back at it now, I can't believe how irrational I was being. I was just insecure and needed some reassurance...

The difference here is that you weren't rooting through something that you shouldn't have been expected to have access to. If you found say, an old journal in that box, and started paging through it without his knowledge, that would be a good bit different.