WoW BHA - Exec mtg Mon Jan 14 @ 7 Server

Meeting results seperated by topic...

GENERAL Announcements wrote:

If a player has one toon that is already of GWJ Member status, then all follow on alts can be a member w/o spending time as a Fairy Princess. Just mention it to an Exec if you would like to go straight to GWJ Member status.

All new GWJ Alliance guild members must go through at least 4 weeks as a Fairy Princess prior to being given GWJ Member status.

ELECTION Update wrote:

Council will consist of 6 people + the CEO

  • CEO (appointed by the previous CEO & confirmed by Certis/Elysium)
  • Head CFO (appointed by Executives)
  • Raid Leader (appointed by Executives)
  • At Large (elected) – Person must be over 18 & a GWJ Member status
  • 3 Execs (elected) – Person must be an Executive or CFO status

Working Executive meeting to continue planning the election (edit-01/27/08) during the February Officers' meeting.

Tentative plans:

  • Council will be focused on making policy decisions.
  • One week of nominations for the At Large post.
  • One week of nominations for the 3 rotating Executive posts.
  • Criteria for voting - GWJ Member status & GWJ Forum membership
  • At Large position does not confer Executive status within the guild, but will give the individual access to Officer chat for the duration of their term.

Things yet to be discussed

  • Term duration/limits
  • Exact timeframe for election
  • Finalizing the method by which the vote will happen.
GUILD BANK Information wrote:
  • Functioning as intended by the GWJ Alliance leadership
  • Fairy Princess may only deposit into the bank, but may request items of CEO, CFO or Executive. All requests are subject to review.
  • GWJ Members have withdraw access on 2 of the Guild Bank tabs. This access allows 2 withdraw actions per day on each tab. The tab names indicate which tabs these are. Counting from the top down, the second & fourth tabs have this access.
  • There are 2 tabs where only the CFOs & CEO can withdraw items (CFO Access & Rare Stuff). Counting from the top down, the third and fifth tabs have this access.
  • Executives, CFOs & the CEO have withdraw access on the first tab.
RAID Control Announcements wrote:

Krindle/Zablocki19 is the Raid Leader
Vilius/Mayfield is the Jr. Raid Leader

Only Krindle or Vilius may post GWJ Alliance Guild Raid sign-ups unless otherwise identified by Shanker/Reaper81.

Note - Anyone may post asking for interest in other types of runs.

RAIDs & Couples Information wrote:

It is the responsibility of each couple to make any running restrictions known to the Raid Leader on a week by week basis.

GUILD RAIDs & Non-Guild people Information wrote:
  • Non-Guild person do not get schedule priority over guild members of the same raiding role. If scheduling cannot accomidate Guild members as prioity over non-guild, the Guild Raid will be cancelled rather than run.
  • It is the Raid Leader's responsibility to make known ahead of time what the loot expectations are for the run. (Example: If Maiden's Mace drops & a guild member who REALLY needs the item is running, a PUG priest would not get to roll off to get the mace.)
  • Unless defined ahead of time, PUG raiders are to be treated as equal to GWJ guildies for the purpose of loot.
LOOT RULE Updates wrote:

No changes to 5 person instances

RAID LOOT
General Raid Loot Priority has been modified to give slight priority to guild members of GWJ Member status or higher. Final say still goes to the Loot Master. For the duration of their 4 week probationary Fairy Princess term, members with this status will be given second priority on loot drop upgrades.

The new loot priority is:
Main Spec > Fairy Princess > Off Spec > DE

25 Raid Loot Drops

  • Loot Priority is in effect
  • 1 purple per week until future notice (per person, not per toon)
  • 1 week is considered within the last 7 days
  • Loot priority is in effect. (ie where none of the participants can use a drop for their Main Spec, the next group with priority consist of Fairy Princess of the applicable Main Spec).
  • The Loot Master has the final say in distribution of all loot.

Specific topics slated to be discussed:

  • Election
  • Guild Bank
  • Structure/control of Guild Raid sign ups
  • Guild Couples & Raid sign ups
    • Will only run together
    • Special requests
    • Where one plays a toon filling a shortage role
  • Guild vs non-Guild participation in GWJ Alliance Raids
    • Individuals non-Guild members (friend/pug)
    • Non-Guild couples where one fills a shortage role
    • Non-Guild couples which only run together

Additional topics (time permitting):

I see your project manager tendencies showing.

Would like to add loot rules, the Bhutto assassination, and designating an official 'GWJ Alliance' coffee of the month!

I'm bringing my gun. It's loaded with unhappy bullets.

Reaper81 wrote:

I'm bringing my gun. It's loaded with unhappy bullets.

Tibbsy is bringing Bourbon...trumps "unhappy bullets" every time.

It's not posted here, but I got the impression somewhere that y'all would be discussing the issue of couples / families / friends who wish to be slotted together in guild events. If that's the case, then hopefully you'd like to hear from some of the couples first...so here are my thoughts.

Many of our guild couples (and former guild couples) have expressed that they prefer to play together; it's pretty universal. I think that it comes down to the matter that playing together is spending time doing something together, whereas obviously doing separate things is not.

No one should ever be allowed to hold a run hostage or dictate the makeup of a raid, but you're not likely to find that at GWJ, thankfully. What you may occasionally see are people saying "I would love to come if my spouse / child and I can play together, but if not, we're going to spend time together in some other fashion." It may not always be spelled out in that way, but if we assume good hearts amongst our guildmates and friends and give them the benefit of the doubt, hopefully it's easy to see that's the motivation.

In concrete terms, there are two couples signed up for ZA for tonight. It appears that Aes and Vall were willing to run separately, but you'll notice that they rescheduled a date night in order to help us take a shot at that place. There is absolutely nothing selfish or wrong about a married couple wanting to spend their Friday together, I'm sure we'll all agree. Likewise, I would not be very interested in spending my Friday night running without Sigsbee; she's my wife, we almost always do things together on a Friday night, and that's normal in the real world. And that's at the heart of the matter when it comes to couples - we exist in the real world out here. In terms of WoW and raiding, it may not be the norm, but if everyone can step back and think about the way things go down in relationships and real life, it might help.

For instance, picture a scenario where I was invited to go bowling (in a group consisting of both men and women) by a friend, but when I said "I'd love to come if my wife can come too, we were planning on being together that night," the friend accused me of holding the bowling outing hostage. Seems pretty bizarre in real life terms, right?

The entire element of hostage-holding only arises, btw, because we have a shortage of healers and tanks. This is not really anyone's fault, but least of all is it the fault of the healers and tanks. I think everyone knows that those roles are under-repesented in our guild. The only possible solution within the guild is for more people to respec or level another character. By coincidence, one of our tanks (me) and one of our close friends and fellow Goodjers (Aes) play those roles, and happen to be in couples. If we can't field a run (or someone can't get the slot they wanted) because one BHAer and / or one friend of BHA isn't available, then we need to recognize that our problem is a shortage of tanks or healers, and not that married couples shockingly want to do things together.

I don't think most anyone has a problem with this, but over the last month I've heard some voices of understanding, and some who seem to think that the guild can simply assign whoever it wants to whatever raid, end of story. You can do that in a hardcore raiding guild, but this is GWJ, and if I expect any guild to be supportive of couples, this would be the one. I certainly don't expect people to be thought of as selfish for wanting to play with their spouse - in the real world, it's more likely that one is selfish for NOT wanting to spend time with their spouse.

To get this into practical terms, I am not saying that I will only play with my wife; I raided for months before she ever got keyed. That said, if I am sometimes only available as part of the proverbial "package deal", then that's real world virtue, not video game mutiny.

Sorry for writing a book, but if y'all are going to be talking about this issue, then you should really have this input. Happy meeting-ing!

I'm adding topics to the overall list as they are identified. I'm putting new topics under a Time Permitting heading for now or we'll be in the meeting until the following week.

If there are other topics that any guild member would like to put forward, please feel free to post them here, but if you feel you need to include a book, please PM that to me or another Exec. If you have a topic you'd like discussed, but would rather not post it, please PM me or another Exec directly and we can put forward the topic in that manner.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Sorry for writing a book, but if y'all are going to be talking about this issue, then you should really have this input. Happy meeting-ing! ;)

Fed, since your wife is an Executive, I'd hope that she would be able to bring the detail... /Fed

I see 4. and Additional Topic A. as being too closely related to be separate topics.

Reaper81 wrote:

I see 4. and Additional Topic A. as being too closely related to be separate topics.

Respectfully, I disagree.

I would suggest topic 4 deals ONLY with the role of non-Guild members running in Guild Raids as individuals.

Additional topic A deals with the how to approach Guild members who wish to run as couples and how they are treated during raid scheduling.

I think the topics together can lead to a decision on if/how non-Guild couples are allowed to schedule into Guild Raids.

Respectfully, I disagree.

I would suggest topic 4 deals ONLY with the role of non-Guild members running in Guild Raids as individuals.

Additional topic A deals with the how to approach Guild members who wish to run as couples and how they are treated during raid scheduling.

I think the topics together can lead to a decision on if/how non-Guild couples are allowed to schedule into Guild Raids.

I suppose so. I guess the key word is scheduling. We're speaking broadly of scheduling issues of which 4 and A are parts of. Perhaps rephrase four to think of it as scheduling issues?

Reaper81 wrote:

I suppose so. I guess the key word is scheduling. We're speaking broadly of scheduling issues of which 4 and A are parts of. Perhaps rephrase four to think of it as scheduling issues?

I've taken your comments, my thoughts of how topics 4 & a led to a third decision and reworked them into what is now topics 4 & 5 with addional bullets for clarification. I think this will address the concepts that you were seeing as related and still allow for distinction between them as I was seeing.

The main difference being that I bumped the discussion of Guild couple scheduling to be discussed prior to Guild vs non-Guild participation in Guild Raids. The Guild/non-Guild discussion now includes a bullet for individuals and two for couples.

Robert's Rules are in effect I take it?

LeapingGnome wrote:

I see your project manager tendencies showing. ;)

Yes, I am an alien forced to live among you.

Reaper81 wrote:

Robert's Rules are in effect I take it? :wink:

Great, now I have something else to add to my reading list...

My general rules for meetings -

  • Define the length before it begins & end reasonably close to the planned timeframe (The agenda assumes 2 hours)
  • If you've promised something to another group, make it happen (1 & 2)
  • No dancing pink polka-dotted elephants allowed
  • First things first (3 -> 4 -> 5)
  • Wrap up a topic or have a plan to do so before moving on to the next one
  • Agenda topics before spur of the momment topics
  • If additional topics for discussion come up, either add to current meeting or table for the following.

Every time I see how civilians run meetings, my brain hurts.

Troll wrote:

Every time I see how civilians run meetings, my brain hurts.

It is for this reason that I want to get back into the real military.

I think Luna's meeting rules are perfect. I would recommend adopting them for all of our meetings.

But I'm not diggin' on the dancing pink polka dotted elephant hate.

Bump...

I had some questions over the weekend about when we are going to have answers dealing with the agenda topics.

And it isn't that I hate dancing pink polka dotted elephants, I hate to have them ignored...

Agenda for discussion at your meeting concerning the guild bank.

1. My Auction House alt joined the guild and was immediately denied access to the bank for two weeks. Hmmm.

2. Maybe it's me, but guildies don't need to feel guilty for wanting something out of the bank. The CFO making judgements as to a request is understandable but it can cause problems. I have heard several say they would rather get the stuff they need on their own than come to the bank.

3. Seems to me that if someone is a willing to be a committed contributor to the bank then they should not be limited to two "stacks of fish or something" ... maybe they should have access to anything they might want out of the bank. If abuse happens, talk to them. If it happens again, cut off their bank access totally or remover them from the guild.

4. I know the guild bank is a new deal and everyone is working to make sure it serves the guild. Thanks for your efforts.

Epenetus wrote:

3. Seems to me that if someone is a willing to be a committed contributor to the bank then they should not be limited to two "stacks of fish or something" ... maybe they should have access to anything they might want out of the bank. If abuse happens, talk to them. If it happens again, cut off their bank access totally or remover them from the guild.

My only concern for this, Epe, and this is in no way directed at you, is that it only take one disgruntled guildie to cleanout the entire bank before he/she /gquits.

Epenetus wrote:

Agenda for discussion at your meeting concerning the guild bank.

2. Maybe it's me, but guildies don't need to feel guilty for wanting something out of the bank. The CFO making judgements as to a request is understandable but it can cause problems. I have heard several say they would rather get the stuff they need on their own than come to the bank.

3. Seems to me that if someone is a willing to be a committed contributor to the bank then they should not be limited to two "stacks of fish or something" ... maybe they should have access to anything they might want out of the bank. If abuse happens, talk to them. If it happens again, cut off their bank access totally or remover them from the guild.

Since these rules were laid down when I was guild leader, let me address this concern.

I have heard these thoughts from several people. Let me toss this out for everyone to hear. When the officers decided on who gets access to what we knew that there was no way to make everyone happy. We also know that there are some who only take, some who only give and some who do a bit of both. The bank has ALWAYS been about spreading the wealth. And though you folks may not realize it, I never gave anyone all of a stack of something. The difference now is that folks can see how many of something is in the bank. When I was spamming all the contents, folks only knew that we had it. As a group, the officers felt that several things needed to be accomplished with the bank.
The ranks in the guild need to have meaning, thus the Fairy Princess gets no access to the bank. And as we all know, everyone NO MATTER who they are does 2 weeks as a Fairy Princess.
As for folks having access to anything they want, you all have that. To limit any drama or issues the officers as a group decided that the CFO had final say and that we were not giving all of any item to one person.
To those who do not like these rules, we are sorry. They were made to be as fair as possible to everyone. I know that someone wanted all of the fel iron we had and I said no, they could have 1/3 or maybe 1/2. How is that persons need more important than the someone else who asks for it an hour later or tomorrow? There is no good or fair way to resolve this issue. This maybe a time when we as a guild will have to agree to disagree. If someone feels that all they do is give and do not get enough in return, may I suggest that you stop giving or don't give as much. The bank is not about I gave this thus I get that.

The bit about making Mal's alt be a Fairy Princess is weird. I didn't think we did that; I know I've seen officers roll alts that get promoted immediately, which makes sense to me. The rank is associated with the person, not the toon, right?

Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.

- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.

Xbox Live: Fedaykin98

Kiri wrote:

The ranks in the guild need to have meaning, thus the Fairy Princess gets no access to the bank. And as we all know, everyone NO MATTER who they are does 2 weeks as a Fairy Princess.

Troll noted my thought already, and I wanted to second support for this particular comment from Kiri. Many goodjers who've been community members at this site for years, including myself, have all put in our time as Fairy Princesses. It's silly, fun for community-building, and a reasonable precaution all wrapped up in one.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

The bit about making Mal's alt be a Fairy Princess is weird. I didn't think we did that; I know I've seen officers roll alts that get promoted immediately, which makes sense to me. The rank is associated with the person, not the toon, right?

I know in the past an alt was put as Fairy Princess to begin with mainly to verify the person's identity. Afterwards they were usually bumped up. Currently my alt Gloc is at the same rank as Krindle so that for the times I was the only officer online, someone needing to get ahold of an officer was able to do so regardless of which toon I was on. However, my Alt didn't get promoted until I was in my lvl 50s I think, which showed people I was serious about keeping them (some people do have the tendency to roll 7 alts and get them to lvl 10 before ignoring them forever).

Zablocki19 wrote:

(some people do have the tendency to roll 7 alts and get them to lvl 10 before ignoring them forever).

...why is everyone looking at me like that?

Hey...I thought this was this monday...can I get a call in number??

Most meetings that are happening down the road like for ideas to be put on the agenda to be submitted early. That is all I was doing. I, for one, just simply wanted to offer items that I thought worthy of your discussion. I was not looking for any explanation, justification or communication about these thoughts. I had things I wanted to communicate and instead of sending them to Reap via PM I posted them on this thread. I NEVER expected a response here. Sorry

Frankly I don't know why we shouldn't have a thread where members can submit their thoughts on issues that are going to be discussed during the meetings, Mal. If it's really a bother for people to post them here (it's not, imho), then from now on we should start an open thread whenever an officer meeting is called. We as a guild need to discuss things from time to time.

Epenetus wrote:

I had things I wanted to communicate and instead of sending them to Reap via PM I posted them on this thread. I NEVER expected a response here. Sorry :(

Don't be sorry Epe, quite the contrary, I see your post as a success. You had a concern about a guild process, and made your concern known. IMHO, this is the only way we can identify unneccessary/outdated practices, and improve ourselves.

Good job!

Pigpen wrote:

Hey...I thought this was this monday...can I get a call in number??

:-(

Do you mean the meeting Tibbs? It'll be 7pm on the 14th. We'll meet on vent (and for those without mics, we'll also have the officer channel).

Thanks Fedaykin98 and Troll ...