2K: FOV and DRM fixes on their way for Bioshock

booty wrote:

Please take this as an innocent question (as it is intended): How is the value of the game you purchased diminished if you can only install it on 5 (or 2) computers?
What am I missing?

It's the principle of the situation. I buy the right to use the software (and it's an expensive purchase) in the allowed way (as in playing the game - i avoided using however i want here as i don't want to use it that way) as many times or in whatever fashion i like.

Say i'm some sort of weirdo (just pretend ;)) that likes to play a game, uninstall it and then reinstall it later on the same month.... because i have a deadline to meet and i know that i can't play the game...
Say i do that or change hardware or lose a HDD to corruption more than a couple of times (read:5) in one year - not an unreasonable assumption. I have to reactivate my paid-for product. This is not a rental, there shouldn't be restrictions on your proper usage of the product. You don't buy a DVD and can only watch it on a maximum of 5 DVD different players (although you may be allowed to watch it on those five many times) before you need to go back to universal or paramount to get one removed and reactivated. [This is something that movie studioes have tried to implement unsuccessfully in the recent past]

It's not consumer friendly and if "average Joe"s had to do this for their media, no media would get sold. Why should we, as paying customers and PC users, expect to be treated differently? Are we some sort of special criminal over-class that has higher intelligence and tools at our disposal? (I suppose it could be argued that we are)

It's completely pointless anyway as the stated use of this type of DRM is to stop casual copying/pirating - much less draconian copy protection systems have been in place for years and they worked just as well.... i.e. All the honest people who buy the game don't copy it and the "criminal element" use leaked discs pressed from the manufacturers or code from servers.... or they redistribute versions that have had the protection hacked from them.

I know it's one of those sound-bite sayings, a cliché but:
Copy protection keeps the honest, honest and does nothing to those who have and will always find ways to circumvent it.

Seriously, with MS not caring about GFW LIVE! (Gabe Newell says that it's on a back-burner atm) and more and more insidious DRM cropping up in games this is the death of PC gaming. Developers/publishers are making the one aspect of PC gaming that is undesirable when compared to console gaming even worse: usability.

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

That would be perfect.

Duoae wrote:

You don't buy a DVD and can only watch it on a maximum of 5 DVD different players (although you may be allowed to watch it on those five many times) before you need to go back to universal or paramount to get one removed and reactivated. [This is something that movie studioes have tried to implement unsuccessfully in the recent past]

If you want games that work like DVDs you might consider buying a console instead.

Podunk wrote:
Duoae wrote:

You don't buy a DVD and can only watch it on a maximum of 5 DVD different players (although you may be allowed to watch it on those five many times) before you need to go back to universal or paramount to get one removed and reactivated. [This is something that movie studioes have tried to implement unsuccessfully in the recent past]

If you want games that work like DVDs you might consider buying a console instead. :)

True, but then you can't get AO rated games, and you are stuck with not being able to enjoy mods, etc.

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

That would be perfect.

That's right. Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

At least, until the same tortured souls found something new to bitch about.

kharvelan wrote:

True, but then you can't get AO rated games, and you are stuck with not being able to enjoy mods, etc.

UT3 will support user mods for both console versions.

Also, hot off the presses:

Levine admits there were "real screw-ups" and he "understands why people are pissed off" about the online copy protection verification for the game and it comes down to a classic victim of their own success story. They couldn't have planned the game would be such an insta-hit and they weren't prepared, so when all those people tried to verify their PC versions online during installation the server crashed. He also reiterated patches are in the works for the FOV issues and that the copy protection limit locked in for PCs will be raised. He also says at some point they will remove the online verification.
TheGameguru wrote:

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

It's always nice to get insulted just because you think differently than someone else and choose to voice that opinion. I guess that's why Blue's News is still so popular.

*Legion* wrote:
Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

The problem is that for many years now it hasn't been a technical requirement to even need the disc.

That's not true. At all. Games have required the CD to launch forever.

I think his point is that PC games generally tend to install everything on the hard drive, and that the games could be run without a CD. The "disc in tray" CD requirement often exists only as a copy protection measure (although this is changing as Vista adds "drop and play" functionality)

Gotcha. I read him wrong.

Would the death penalty to hackers and pirates be a better solution?

Tar and feathers?

I see your point Duoae, and I'm wondering why it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. I give money to the EFF precisely because of related issues (freedom to tinker et al.), yet this one doesn't strike me at all. To each their own I guess.

Mr.Green wrote:

Would the death penalty to hackers and pirates be a better solution?

Tar and feathers?

Now you're talkin'! I think making them walk the plank would be delicious irony myself.

booty wrote:

I see your point Duoae, and I'm wondering why it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. I give money to the EFF precisely because of related issues (freedom to tinker et al.), yet this one doesn't strike me at all. To each their own I guess.

We all draw our lines in the sand at different points. Things like functionality don't bother me (widescreen issues, only use joypads on a console etc). I just have a very distinct idea in my head as to what i'm paying for when i buy something. As i said - although i don't like it i wouldn't be moaning half as much if i had known the exact extent of the DRM in place on Bioshock. I wouldn't have bought it.
We lose our freedoms little by little, day by day and at some point we say "no more".

Podunk wrote:

If you want games that work like DVDs you might consider buying a console instead. :)

Not really. I can't play my 360 games on any of the three systems. It's not comparable.

TheGameguru wrote:

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

That would be perfect.

Guru, I am really disappointed by your line of comments as I hold you to high regards in all things on this forum.

Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

The problem is that for many years now it hasn't been a technical requirement to even need the disc.

That's not true. At all. Games have required the CD to launch forever.

Legion got it right. I also provided no less than four examples of games (Dawn of War, Winter Assault, Dark Crusade, Company of Heroes) that do not require a disc to play. Ask anyone about Stardock's TotalGaming.net and you can see a viable and working business model of media less and DRM free software distribution.

Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Besides that, most books are not $40, $50, or $60. You can also rent books for free from your public library.

Yeah most novels are probably cheaper than games and I guess you can indeed borrow them from your local library if you're not in a hurry but what does it have to do with what I said?

You were being a smartass by bringing up how you would replace books and music once the media it come on was lost or destroyed and I brought counter examples.

Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

The same applies to music cd's as they can be re downloaded. The physical media hasn't been a requirement for years.

Saywha? I'm talking about CDs, not iTunes. Besides, I'm not very familiar with downloadable music but isn't it crippled with DRM issues as well?

Since you say you are not very familiar with downloadble music it's a good thin you asked. iTunes does have DRM free music. So does Walmart, Amazon, and other places. Just google around for answers, there are tons of places to find it.

*Legion* wrote:
Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

The problem is that for many years now it hasn't been a technical requirement to even need the disc.

That's not true. At all. Games have required the CD to launch forever.

I think his point is that PC games generally tend to install everything on the hard drive, and that the games could be run without a CD. The "disc in tray" CD requirement often exists only as a copy protection measure (although this is changing as Vista adds "drop and play" functionality)

Give the man a cookie, he understood what I wrote.

Mr.Green wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

The problem is that for many years now it hasn't been a technical requirement to even need the disc.

That's not true. At all. Games have required the CD to launch forever.

I think his point is that PC games generally tend to install everything on the hard drive, and that the games could be run without a CD. The "disc in tray" CD requirement often exists only as a copy protection measure (although this is changing as Vista adds "drop and play" functionality)

Gotcha. I read him wrong.

Would the death penalty to hackers and pirates be a better solution?

Tar and feathers?

You would think we would devote our legal and justice system to something more important, but then again we are fighting the war on terror and drugs.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

It's always nice to get insulted just because you think differently than someone else and choose to voice that opinion. I guess that's why Blue's News is still so popular.

I didnt insult anyone.. way to read more into it.. but ok.

Bottom line.. I got zero problem with people trying to protect their investment.. I know how much time and effort goes into making these games.. I'm all for these companies doing everything possible under the sun to even protect their product for a week or two.. given how much of their sales are in that brief window of time.

I got no patience for whining... especially when the amount of real time and effort spent dealing with the "hassle" of DRM is TINY.. I mean TINY. 99% of the complainers have no real purpose.. other than to complain for the sake of complaining.

And for that.. I'd love to see PC gaming just poof!.. cause hey.. that way no more complaining

Please, you know by human nature they would just complain about the lack of PC games, the good old days, about consoles, etc etc etc.

I'm less bothered by the DRM aspect of multiple installs and such and more bothered by it for the implications for future resale as well as just the outright nastiness of certain implementations. I understand the perceived necessity of it for game creators and wouldn't hesitate to support any truly functional implementation that both guaranteed that I have a "valid copy" -- whether I purchased it new or used shouldn't matter -- and didn't disrupt my experience with the game or do anything to my computer. However, given the tenacity of people that desire to have everything for free I truly don't think there will ever be such a system. Which is rather sad.

TheGameguru wrote:

I didnt insult anyone.. way to read more into it.. but ok.

TheGameguru wrote:

I for one to spite my own self would be nothing but super pleased for PC gaming to disappear completely and totally if anything just to get rid of all the crying about DRM, Copy Protection, Steam, Activation, etc.. etc..

You asserted in this statement that those who voice what we believe are valid concerns about DRM are all just crying about it and you'd be happy to see PC gaming vanish if it would get rid of us. It's fine if you don't have a problem with it but your views aren't everyone else's and this statement is clearly a stab at those who think DRM isn't a good thing for consumers. I read it exactly as you wrote it.

TheGameguru wrote:

Bottom line.. I got zero problem with people trying to protect their investment.. I know how much time and effort goes into making these games.. I'm all for these companies doing everything possible under the sun to even protect their product for a week or two.. given how much of their sales are in that brief window of time.

I've said before that I don't have a problem with this either and I don't even mind DRM if it's implemented intelligently and not to the detriment of consumers. I'm the one they're trying to sell this game to. Without the money of me and any other number of people, these games fail. So why should I be forced to jump through a ton of hoops either now or in the future to play the game I rightfully paid for? Did this stop piracy of BioShock? No, within 48 hours there were functional cracks up and guess what? All the people who are pirating this now wouldn't have bought the game anyway, DRM or no. If those people can't get the game illegally, they just won't play it. It sucks but that's the way it is. I'm one of those people who believes in paying for what I play and rewarding the creators. For that, I get the privilege of being assumed a criminal? I don't think so.

TheGameguru wrote:

I got no patience for whining... especially when the amount of real time and effort spent dealing with the "hassle" of DRM is TINY.. I mean TINY. 99% of the complainers have no real purpose.. other than to complain for the sake of complaining.

The thing you don't seem to get is that it isn't whining just because the opinion is not yours. I've never once insulted you for your beliefs on this issue, I've just said I disagree with them. If you don't have a problem with it, feel free to support those who implement it and that's cool. But I have as little patience for being insulted just because I believe consumers should not be treated in this manner. You could just as easily have ignored my posts but instead you posted a complaint about those who "complain for the sake of complaining."

Also, if what Ken Levine says is true about them removing the online activation in the future (and I believe he is being honest), that is when I will happily hand over my money to buy BioShock again on PC (assuming the good mods I'm sure are coming are out then.) I will never say that because of DRM, BioShock as a game doesn't deserve incredible success.

FOV: You guys have probably already seen the user-made hack for widescreen by Racer_S, but if you haven't:

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...

Did they ever determine the specific conditions that cause the FOV to go out of whack and things to become cut off? I'm playing this on a widescreen TV and I tried the demo on my widescreen laptop and didn't see a problem. I know it doesn't affect everyone but I'm curious what sets it off as some people were saying that large parts of the HUD weren't visible.

Duoae wrote:

Not really. I can't play my 360 games on any of the three systems. It's not comparable.

You also can't play your Windows PC games in Ubuntu or OSX. Comparing PC games to DVD movies is every bit as much of an apples-and-oranges analogy.

These DRM threads are like arguments about abortion. Nothing good can ever come of them.

I'm running the FOV fix and man does it make a world of difference!

IMAGE(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/451/bioshock200708241826353xi4.jpg)
IMAGE(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7371/bioshock200708241827024oz1.jpg)

IMAGE(http://wsgfmedia.com/uploads/paddywak/screenshots/bioshock/BioshockFOV.jpg)

Parallax, here's a screenshot, where the entire image represents the 4:3 view and the red areas indicate the visuals cut off in widescreen resolutions. [pulled directly from widescreen gaming, not my own screenshot]
This thread has a lot of information on it, and runs the gamut between ludicrous, informative, and confusing. I play 1680x1050 and was never really bothered by the field of view, but it's good to have some options to adjust it.

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com...

I've said before that I don't have a problem with this either and I don't even mind DRM if it's implemented intelligently and not to the detriment of consumers. I'm the one they're trying to sell this game to. Without the money of me and any other number of people, these games fail. So why should I be forced to jump through a ton of hoops either now or in the future to play the game I rightfully paid for? Did this stop piracy of BioShock? No, within 48 hours there were functional cracks up and guess what? All the people who are pirating this now wouldn't have bought the game anyway, DRM or no. If those people can't get the game illegally, they just won't play it. It sucks but that's the way it is. I'm one of those people who believes in paying for what I play and rewarding the creators. For that, I get the privilege of being assumed a criminal? I don't think so.

So you know better than the guys running these companies?? well.. hell.. your in the wrong business.. forward me your resume and I'll get you hooked up. Obviously your over qualified.. you've got all the answers.. and would implement all these intelligent DRM solutions overnight.

My question to all the complainers.. do you approach everything in life this way? every facet of what you deal with in life? If not.. and your simply taking advantage of the ease and anonymity of the internet.. then your probably just complaining to complain.

These DRM threads are like arguments about abortion. Nothing good can ever come of them.

BINGO! yet..not a single AAA title can get released with the same old crap coming up.. its like people are sitting their rubbing their hands in glee waiting to post about the horrific nature of DRM in XYZ title...and how outraged they are!

I installed the PC version of Bioshock to see what all the hubbub was about.. and guess what.. I was playing the game.. nothing happened.. my computer didnt stop working.. the world didnt end.. I enjoyed a game.. who really cares that 6 months from now I might have to re-enter a key and re-authenticate? I played the game.. I had fun.

Very interesting. The thing I don't get is that at least on my TV (I don't have a widescreen monitor on my main PC), I don't think I'm getting that amount of stuff cut off. I'll have to check and see. So it does scale the HUD to compensate for that? I know a lot of people were frustrated more because they said that parts of that were either partially obscured or completely missing which seems to be a more isolated problem.

edit: never mind, I waited too long to post.

TheGameguru wrote:

So you know better than the guys running these companies?? well.. hell.. your in the wrong business.. forward me your resume and I'll get you hooked up. Obviously your over qualified.. you've got all the answers.. and would implement all these intelligent DRM solutions overnight.

My question to all the complainers.. do you approach everything in life this way? every facet of what you deal with in life? If not.. and your simply taking advantage of the ease and anonymity of the internet.. then your probably just complaining to complain.

Ad hominem attacks don't further the discussion. Let me know when you're ready to debate this like adults. I'm done.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

So you know better than the guys running these companies?? well.. hell.. your in the wrong business.. forward me your resume and I'll get you hooked up. Obviously your over qualified.. you've got all the answers.. and would implement all these intelligent DRM solutions overnight.

My question to all the complainers.. do you approach everything in life this way? every facet of what you deal with in life? If not.. and your simply taking advantage of the ease and anonymity of the internet.. then your probably just complaining to complain.

Ad hominem attacks don't further the discussion. Let me know when you're ready to debate this like adults. I'm done.

What? you mean like real things? profit margins? technology? limitations involved? protecting your ip? Or should we just continue down fantasy land where everything is possible and better than they way its done?

BINGO! yet..not a single AAA title can get released with the same old crap coming up.. its like people are sitting their rubbing their hands in glee waiting to post about the horrific nature of DRM in XYZ title...and how outraged they are!

Company of Heroes. Triple AAA title, sold gang busters, game of the year awards and yet no DRM. Shocking.

Edwin wrote:

You were being a smartass by bringing up how you would replace books and music once the media it come on was lost or destroyed and I brought counter examples.

You did? I must have miss those because all I'm saying is that if you lose your books, CDs, Wii games or your pants then you're f*cked, and that I don't see why it should be different for PC games. So maybe I'm dense, but I really don't see how borrowing books from a library is a counter example of what I said.

Edwin wrote:

Since you say you are not very familiar with downloadble music it's a good thin you asked. iTunes does have DRM free music. So does Walmart, Amazon, and other places. Just google around for answers, there are tons of places to find it.

Yeepee. But again, I was talking about losing actual CDs bought at a brick and mortar store. What the hell does iTunes have to do with that?

Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

You were being a smartass by bringing up how you would replace books and music once the media it come on was lost or destroyed and I brought counter examples.

You did? I must have miss those because all I'm saying is that if you lose your books, CDs, Wii games or your pants then you're f*cked, and that I don't see why it should be different for PC games. So maybe I'm dense, but I really don't see how borrowing books from a library is a counter example of what I said.

That my point. By tying a game, program, music, book, whatever, to a physical object you are creating a scenario that will screw over the consumer. Letting go of artificial restrictions solves this problem. Except for pants. Those sort of have to be physical.

The whole argument is that by requiring the disc to play a PC game and if you lose it you can't play it anymore. Removing that artificial limit lets you still play the game without the disc. At least till you have to re-install windows. XD

Mr.Green wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Since you say you are not very familiar with downloadble music it's a good thing you asked. iTunes does have DRM free music. So does Walmart, Amazon, and other places. Just google around for answers, there are tons of places to find it.

Yeepee. But again, I was talking about losing actual CDs bought at a brick and mortar store. What the hell does iTunes have to do with that?

My example of download-able music was to show that you can just re-download your purchase, an act that can be repeated till end of time, while physical media has to be replaced at cost with another copy.

Look at xbox live arcade. If it worked like tradition distribution methods, and one of those were to fail or be lost that would not be necessary as you can just re-download the game again, and at no cost.

TheGameguru wrote:

My question to all the complainers.. do you approach everything in life this way? every facet of what you deal with in life? If not.. and your simply taking advantage of the ease and anonymity of the internet.. then your probably just complaining to complain.

One also can take advantage of the "ease and anonimity of the Internet" to insult whole groups of people to their heart's content.

Meditate on that one a while