Bonds hits 755

Rat Boy wrote:

Correction: Bonds hits 756. And what's going to stick in the craw of the Jay Mariottis, Jim Romes, Roger Lodges (and when the f*ck was he a sports authority?) and JohnnyMoJos' of the world is that Hammerin' Hank Aaron (the first) appeared in a taped announcement and, in spite of all the bullsh*t speculation, praised Barry for his achievement on the HiDef Jumbotron thingamajig.

Probably because Hank Aaron is a good person with a good heart. A real footprint of the kinds of attitudes that baseball used to represent.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

Probably because Hank Aaron is a good person with a good heart. A real footprint of the kinds of attitudes that baseball used to represent.

And it's rather funny to see sports writers dumping on him on ESPN for even making that recorded message. I can't wait to watch First Take, Around the Horn, and PTI tomorrow to see all these naysayers bitch and moan not about the home run but Hank's message. I'm going to be one laughing SOB tomorrow afternoon, let me tell you.

I saw the list of the top ten on the list of homeruns and 5 of them are suspected juicers. It's pretty sad.

Barry isn't the only one getting hurt in this scandal, if Barry is actually getting hurt at all. I seem to remember Palmeiro (#10 on the list) getting in a bit of trouble. Also, Giambi admitted he took them and is back in the game. There's speculation around Barry, but he didn't ever admit to anything and hasn't even had his hand slapped. Poor Barry.

Here's the deal. Bonds admitted to using two of the substances from BALCO, the "Cream" and the "Clear". Of course, he says had no idea what thery were. Maybe flax seed oil. Who knows?

We can play dumb and just believe Barry, or we can infer as to why he admitted this. I'd vetnure to guess they already have evidence of him taking these substances, so he felt the need to clear his name by pleading ignorance.

Regardless, his HRs were juiced. Not maybe, but they were. So are we going to act like clueless parents and just believe Barry had no idea what he was taking, or will be more like my parents that didn't need a jury to nail my butt when I was up to something.

I can forgive baseball for the steroid scandal, as I feel fans were just as complicit as the league. We all loved it, even though it was obvious. But times have changed. I'm not sure I can forgive baseball for letting Bonds continue and break Aaron's record. That was really disgusting.

I hate Jay Mariotti. Just wanted to get that out there. Also, I think Hank's a good guy.

As for Bonds, the fact that we know he was on steroids for so many of those HRs seems to me to be case closed. If that record doesn't have a 32-pt asterix, then the game is broken.

Jayhawker wrote:

I can forgive baseball for the steroid scandal, as I feel fans were just as complicit as the league. We all loved it, even though it was obvious. But times have changed. I'm not sure I can forgive baseball for letting Bonds continue and break Aaron's record. That was really disgusting.

I agree, I think he should have never been allowed to break the record, it's something that pisses me off about baseball.

wordsmythe wrote:

I hate Jay Mariotti. Just wanted to get that out there. Also, I think Hank's a good guy.

As for Bonds, the fact that we know he was on steroids for so many of those HRs seems to me to be case closed. If that record doesn't have a 32-pt asterix, then the game is broken.

You better break out a great deal of Asterix's then.. because you cant be sure what happened realistically since the early 90's. Its pretty obvious that most of the Phillies in 1993 were juicing.. as were most of the BlueJays in the world series.. Ricky Henderson? yup.. a good deal of his stolen bases were bogus.. he was all juiced up towards the end of his career.

I can forgive baseball for the steroid scandal, as I feel fans were just as complicit as the league. We all loved it, even though it was obvious. But times have changed. I'm not sure I can forgive baseball for letting Bonds continue and break Aaron's record. That was really disgusting.

You cant have "degrees" of "wrongness". EVERYONE is to blame.. just because Bonds broke the most sacred record in baseball is meaningless.. its all jacked up.. everything.. its not just about one guy.. one guy didnt ruin baseball.. you CANT forgive baseball for anything!! because from the start THEY created the Barry Bonds monster.

GG, the difference being that Bonds admitted to using steroids -- just claimed it was an accident. I've got stroing suspicions about a lot of guys, but very few admissions.

wordsmythe wrote:

GG, the difference being that Bonds admitted to using steroids -- just claimed it was an accident. I've got stroing suspicions about a lot of guys, but very few admissions.

That actually punishes the guys who are man enough to come out and admit it, though.

I'm anti-Bonds and anti- counting this for the record. Jayhawker hit the nail right on the head - the HRs were juiced, shouldn't count, end of story. I don't care about blaming the league, the fans, GameGuru, anyone - in this argument, all I care about is the record, and juiced HRs don't get it done, imho.

Re: Edwin's comment about A-Rod being a jerk - I just heard from a guy two weeks ago who feels differently; A-Rod was on deck and Jeter fouled one off in his direction; A-Rod, rather than ignoring it or just tossing it in the stands, took the time to pick it up and hand it directly to the guy's 7 year-old son. Yeah, that doesn't make him Mother Theresa, but hearing that story improved my take on him.

Ooh, agreed on A-Rod.

But yeah, I'm just saying that there's cases we know about and cases we're only very suspicious of. You can't ignore the admission of fault, though. No record for BB.

Fedaykin98 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

GG, the difference being that Bonds admitted to using steroids -- just claimed it was an accident. I've got stroing suspicions about a lot of guys, but very few admissions.

That actually punishes the guys who are man enough to come out and admit it, though.

I'm anti-Bonds and anti- counting this for the record. Jayhawker hit the nail right on the head - the HRs were juiced, shouldn't count, end of story. I don't care about blaming the league, the fans, GameGuru, anyone - in this argument, all I care about is the record, and juiced HRs don't get it done, imho.

Re: Edwin's comment about A-Rod being a jerk - I just heard from a guy two weeks ago who feels differently; A-Rod was on deck and Jeter fouled one off in his direction; A-Rod, rather than ignoring it or just tossing it in the stands, took the time to pick it up and hand it directly to the guy's 7 year-old son. Yeah, that doesn't make him Mother Theresa, but hearing that story improved my take on him.

I've had the displeasure of working on a clients network and computers while he was there on multiple occasions. He may just act that way while he is on camera but in the times I've seen and interacted with him he was a total douche and an a-hole by being rude and other stuff.

Edwin wrote:

I've had the displeasure of working on a clients network and computers while he was there on multiple occasions. He may just act that way while he is on camera but in the times I've seen and interacted with him he was a total douche and an a-hole by being rude and other stuff.

What are you, some kind of on-call IT guy to the stars there in Miami? Brilliant!

And your firsthand experience > my story, obviously.

Maybe he likes kids, but hates pantless koalas?

I believe the only rational way to settle this is trial by bears. Let Barry juice himself up for 3 months, then he has to fight a grizzly bear, with the event televised live on a JumboTron. If he wins, he gets the record.

JoeBedurndurn wrote:

I believe the only rational way to settle this is trial by bears. Let Barry juice himself up for 3 months, then he has to fight a grizzly bear, with the event televised live on a JumboTron. If he wins, he gets the record.

I can find no rule in the MLB that would prevent this. So be it!

Fedaykin98 wrote:
Edwin wrote:

I've had the displeasure of working on a clients network and computers while he was there on multiple occasions. He may just act that way while he is on camera but in the times I've seen and interacted with him he was a total douche and an a-hole by being rude and other stuff.

What are you, some kind of on-call IT guy to the stars there in Miami? Brilliant!

And your firsthand experience > my story, obviously.

Maybe he likes kids, but hates pantless koalas?

He refused to sign an autograph for a autistic kid who was a huge fan of his and Jeter. His mom/my client gave him holy hell.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation, but I can't imagine autism allows for kids to excitedly run up to a baseball player and ask for an autograph.

I have a point that I'll further pontificate on if and when we do the sports podcast, but Michael Wilbon brought up an excellent point on PTI today that I've been mulling over. Records, especially when compared across eras in sports, are meaningless. The games have fundamentally changed since their initial inceptions that to compare a record set by a basketball player after the implementation of the 24-second shot clock to those before quite difficult and quite silly. Hate to break it to you, folks, but there isn't a single player in any sport today that isn't taking or using something that players a century ago weren't using, be it steroids, nutritional supplements, or even Gatorade. Ideally, each record set today in every sport should be compared with records from different eras. Up until twenty years ago, no one kept track of saves. Does that mean that Dennis Eckersly or Eric Gagne are better pitchers than Sandy Koufax or Cy Young? Hell, a hundred years ago, there wasn't such a thing as a quarterback in American football. Barry Bonds, for better or worse, is the best player of this era of performance enhancement; many other players have used them, both legal and now illegal, but none of them have done what he has done. Many people now berate the decision by Commissioner Ford Frick to place an asterisk by Roger Maris' single season home run record, but the underlying logic behind it is sound; Maris set the record in a different era than Babe Ruth. If you want to start placing more asterisks, then every record set within the past twenty years has to be so marked. To single one player out in spite of similar practices across the entire spectrum of the sport is as unfair to Bonds as it was to Maris.

For all those saying baseball should not have allowed Bonds to break the record, what did you expect them to do? They couldn't just indefinitely suspend him without proof, and he never failed a drug test.

Ratboy, those are good points. Regardless, Bonds has been convicted in the court of public opinion, the same way OJ has been. Kobe kinda dodged that bullet - he hasn't been condemned but he lost a lot of his shine.

If Canseco mattered more he would be condemned, but we can write him off as a preening prat. McGwire probably should be but he essentially plead guilty and asked for forgiveness without saying those actual words - and he seems to not have been strung up for it.

OJ and Bonds will never live down their legacies. Not to equate the wrongs they've allegedly committed, just that every Joe Schmoe is free to take potshots at them whenever they like because they've been condemned in public opinion.

Rat Boy wrote:

I have a point that I'll further pontificate on if and when we do the sports podcast, but Michael Wilbon brought up an excellent point on PTI today that I've been mulling over. Records, especially when compared across eras in sports, are meaningless. The games have fundamentally changed since their initial inceptions that to compare a record set by a basketball player after the implementation of the 24-second shot clock to those before quite difficult and quite silly. Hate to break it to you, folks, but there isn't a single player in any sport today that isn't taking or using something that players a century ago weren't using, be it steroids, nutritional supplements, or even Gatorade. Ideally, each record set today in every sport should be compared with records from different eras. Up until twenty years ago, no one kept track of saves. Does that mean that Dennis Eckersly or Eric Gagne are better pitchers than Sandy Koufax or Cy Young? Hell, a hundred years ago, there wasn't such a thing as a quarterback in American football. Barry Bonds, for better or worse, is the best player of this era of performance enhancement; many other players have used them, both legal and now illegal, but none of them have done what he has done. Many people now berate the decision by Commissioner Ford Frick to place an asterisk by Roger Maris' single season home run record, but the underlying logic behind it is sound; Maris set the record in a different era than Babe Ruth. If you want to start placing more asterisks, then every record set within the past twenty years has to be so marked. To single one player out in spite of similar practices across the entire spectrum of the sport is as unfair to Bonds as it was to Maris.

I think the biggest argument with that would be that steroids use is one of the few things mentioned in your list of other changes in baseball that is ultimately destructive to the player. A longer season or a dietary supplement or even a better energy drink are just evolutions in sport, but, steroids damage your body and don't carry the same intention as the progress that personal trainers and nutritionists bring to athletic events.

Their viewed more as a shortcut than an assistant, and I think that's because the side effects are so sever compared to other athletic aids.

Rat Boy wrote:

Hell, a hundred years ago, there wasn't such a thing as a quarterback in American football.

Are you sure about that? I know there wasn't forward passing, but I think there was still a quarterback.

Ah, the golden years...

LeapingGnome wrote:

For all those saying baseball should not have allowed Bonds to break the record, what did you expect them to do? They couldn't just indefinitely suspend him without proof, and he never failed a drug test.

Uh, Bud Selig absolutely could. The commissioner had the power to make any decision based on what he feels is good for the game. Rose was never convicted of betting on baseball, either. Selig just feels guilty for having practically endorsed steroid use while it helped bring baseball back after the strike.

It's just as much of a shame that Mcgwire and Sammy broke the single season, along with Bonds extending the record to 73. But we can't go back, and frankly, fans loved it. So we can live with it, just like everyone else. But climate has surely changed, and fans no longer want to put up with the juiced player. So now, for the sake of baseball, Selig should have acted to stop Bonds. Continuing to let Bonds play is just an endorsement for steroid use.

For the record, I think there are plent yf ballp-layers that deserve the boot. Bonds is just the poster boy. If baseball investigated this like they did Rose, they would peeled of dozens, and maybe hundreds of players, which youd have been ok with me. Oh, how I would have enjoyed seeing Clemens have to actually answer for his juicing.

TheGameguru wrote:
I can forgive baseball for the steroid scandal, as I feel fans were just as complicit as the league. We all loved it, even though it was obvious. But times have changed. I'm not sure I can forgive baseball for letting Bonds continue and break Aaron's record. That was really disgusting.

You cant have "degrees" of "wrongness". EVERYONE is to blame.. just because Bonds broke the most sacred record in baseball is meaningless.. its all jacked up.. everything.. its not just about one guy.. one guy didnt ruin baseball.. you CANT forgive baseball for anything!! because from the start THEY created the Barry Bonds monster.

I don't have degrees of wrongness. It was all wrong, and unacceptable, but we all loved it and accepted. But the fans no longer love and accept it, so now baseball has to deal with it differently than they did before.

Once baseball righted their ship in regards to steroid use, that should have meant making players pay. Bonds should have been gone, as well, as Sosa and Roger Clemens. I think baseball SHOULD have declared a witch hunt and rid the league of its most obvious abusers. Instead they have allowed Bonds and Clemens to continue making money off of a career that is tainted. So I can forgive baseball for having allowed the steroid scandal to happen, but I have hard time accepting the weak way in which baseball has dealt with the issue since.

May I ask what your basis is for accusing Clemens of using steroids? Bonds I can understand, but Roger Clemens to date has about as much of a connection to steroids as Alex Rodriguez.

Funny, we White Sox fans weren't cheering McGwire and Sosa on.

He was implicated by Canseco and Jason Grimsley. There is also the same evidence that we all use to tag Barry. The guy got better when he hit a stretch that should have taken him out of baseball. Just like Bonds, there is no doubt in my mind Clemens used, and it was a darn good gamble on his part. He prolonged his career, and continues to sign million dollar contracts long after he should have faded out of baseball.

To Clemens credit, he never claimed flax seed oil. That would be ridiculous. No, he creditied Vioxx for keeping him feeling younger.

Sign me up for any Roger Clemens hating, but I will say that the dude has never been small. The before and after pictures of him aren't really interesting at all, whereas with Barry Bonds it's like looking at Bruce Banner and the Hulk.

I never really developed a hatred for Clemens. I think I have more sympathy for pitchers. Not that I condone any cheating on anyone's part, but, I guess I can understand a pitcher trying to just have 2 or 3 more years more than Bonds coming back in peak physical condition, getting pumped up on juice, and then purposely gunning for a coveted record in a slump for the sport.

I'm probably making that argument more skewed than it should be.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

I never really developed a hatred for Clemens.

I didn't until he left us...sniff...

Fedaykin98 wrote:
Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

I never really developed a hatred for Clemens.

I didn't until he left us...sniff... :cry:

Oooooh, see, now it comes out.