There are fixed spawn locations in that certain points of the map act as spawns but there are generally a half dozen or more per map and it purposefully spawns you not only away from enemies, but with any other team mates who've spawned recently.
I had the same experience, but I don't think it was the spawn points. I think my practice sessions in Halo 2 are hurting far more than they're helping. I keep hitting the wrong button to pick up weapons and switch between them, and I keep dropping placeables on my own damned toes or not being able to drop them fast enough because I can't find my own damned fingertips.
By the end of the night I got to a point where I could live long enough to change out that go ram useless piece of crap machine gun you spawn with for something else before I died more than half the time. But then I would go out and try to actually help and inevitably step into a Kilrathi Gang-bang of some sort.
I don't want to go sit in a corner and twiddle my fingers until the retail disk shows up so I can go back to potting grunts by myself. But I can't live long enough yet to really "train", and I don't want to get in the way. And going off to the rumble lists by myself just means I'm getting killed even faster by strangers and junkmonkeys.
I don't quite know what to do here other than to keep trying and getting a tiny bit better each day. Yesterday my best game I got two kills. Today it was three. Sad, yes, but it's something. This weekend I'll be able to really put in some time and I'll have my son at my back now that I know it's okay to have a guest user.
I felt like it handled spawning in much the same manner as Halo 2, but with the relative size of the maps it seems like I have far fewer issues with spawning in plain sight of an enemy.
And don't underestimate the machine gun. I found it better than having one SMG, Needler, or Spiker and it works at slightly longer ranges than those weapons. It's not a be all end all at anything, it's just a solid starting weapon. I'm really glad they brought it back and rebalanced it.
I also don't see all the "the needler isn't useless anymore" stuff. It still seems completely mediocre when up against SMG's or Spikers, and if you only have one may your deity of choice help you if you're more than a few feet away from your target. It also seems really rare on all three maps, and if you do see one it's just that.. one. They don't seem to sit in pairs like SMG's or Spikers so often do. Maybe my opinion on them is colored by the fact that I've only had the opportunity to pick one up a couple of times in total and I've only had two of them one of those times.
don't quite know what to do here other than to keep trying and getting a tiny bit better each day. Yesterday my best game I got two kills. Today it was three. Sad, yes, but it's something. This weekend I'll be able to really put in some time and I'll have my son at my back now that I know it's okay to have a guest user.
I played my first and only part of a game this morning before my daughter came down for breakfast. Slayer in the Rumble Pit. I got one kill right off the bat with the Covenant Carbine. That was the last one. So I certainly feel the same way. I don't know the buttons, layouts, and don't even have my sensitivity right (I'd get attacked and end up wildly overaiming like a drunken ape, oscillating back and forth 30 degrees past the target each time). I think the answer is to get a party of like-minded individuals together for some real training and getting used to things without getting killed every two seconds. I'll be on tonight after about 8:30PM EST if anyone wants to join the training session. We can discuss exactly how then, but it willl be invite-only so that we don't have folks accidentally wandering in that just want to keel. Obviously I think we'll be limited to 6 or 8, I forget which.
Thoughts?
I'd love to play but I don't think I fit your given audience 
I'd love to play but I don't think I fit your given audience.
Elite death-dealing machines need no training ;).
I had a great time last night. Thanks to everyone who helped me out in my Halo noobishness. Also, thanks to Bagga for teabagging me everytime he killed me. I appreciate it. 
Sidetrack here for a sec for a fun story. When I first read about the little droppable support items I was extremely unimpressed with the idea. I guess you could say I was unconvinced they would add any value to the game. Consider my opinion changed.
Yesterday in one game of Territories on Valhalla Edwin and his compatriots on the other team used a pretty cool tactic where they all went full speed ahead toward one point. When they got there and we attacked they parked the Warthog with the driver and gunner in it and both other teammates next to it and then dropped that new temporary shield grenade thing, forcing anyone that wanted to prevent their capping the point to run straight into them.
It worked in their favor and we of course lost the point. It was a nifty tactic.
In an entirely different game without GWJ folk, team slayer on the other green foresty map with the beach on it (I forget the name), a similar situation came up. Two blue team members were on Mongooses, one with a gunner, the last team member on foot. They killed two team members and all took shelter in a shield at once after a near miss from a teammate's rocket launcher. I ran at their backs while they watched another teammate move towards them. As soon as I entered the shield I dropped one of those little portable jump pad things. A mongoose was backing toward me so I stuck it with one of those new brute grenades.
As I backed away I watched a Mongoose spin it's way through the air straight up out of the shield and into the sky, burst into flames killing the driver, hit a rock wall, and roll down into the water. A second guy walked back onto the jump pad, flew out of the shield, landed, and was immediately hit with a rocket by the same teammate that prompted them to drop the shield in the first place.
It was awesome.
Did you save a video of it?
Did you save a video of it?
No 
I didn't think that feature even worked until about an hour later. I did save a couple of other rumble pit games, but I never got anything really cool to happen again.
Does anyone else have extremely spotty luck getting replays they did save to upload? I have three saved replays, but only one of them will upload. If I want I can upload the same one three times with different names but the other two.. it just flashes a little window so fast I can't really read it and then it sits and doesn't do anything.
Also, thanks to Bagga for teabagging me everytime he killed me. I appreciate it. :D
My pleasure. If you'll recall, it didn't happen very often. 
So, my hare-brained take on Halo 3 so far. To all the people who say "it's just Halo," I disagree. It's just Halo 2. It's pretty, to be sure, and has some nifty gadgets that I don't even understand yet, but it plays almost exactly like Halo 2, and I personally don't like that. I can't quite put my finger on why, but to me Halo was so much better than Halo 2 in terms of multiplayer gameplay. The best reason I can come up with is that Halo 3 continues Halo 2's frantic pace; both games are so much faster than the original Halo. I'm sure most people like the faster pace, but I don't. If I want to play Unreal Tournament, I'll go play Unreal Tournament. The original Halo (as my crusty ass remembers it) was slower, but it still required good reflexes and skill. Not sure how that's the case, but there it is. It just felt like... I dunno, that in the original you could plan your moves much better rather than run a constant run-n-gun orgy of killing. I dunno, maybe I'm looking at it all through rose-colored glasses.
It's not that Halo 3 is bad, but I just didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. I'm sure I'll buy it, get most of the way through single player, play multiplayer for a couple weeks, and move on.
So, who's on for some Gears tonight?
I also don't see all the "the needler isn't useless anymore" stuff. It still seems completely mediocre when up against SMG's or Spikers, and if you only have one may your deity of choice help you if you're more than a few feet away from your target. It also seems really rare on all three maps, and if you do see one it's just that.. one. They don't seem to sit in pairs like SMG's or Spikers so often do. Maybe my opinion on them is colored by the fact that I've only had the opportunity to pick one up a couple of times in total and I've only had two of them one of those times.
Actually, the needler isn't dual-wieldable anymore. I think the optimum distance is 1.5 to 2 warthogs away from your target. I think it has a smaller clip than in Halo 2, but it only takes about 5-6 needles to kill someone and the needles no longer explode on a timer; as soon as that 6th needle hits, the guy dies.
I'll be on tonight after about 8:30PM EST if anyone wants to join the training session. We can discuss exactly how then, but it willl be invite-only so that we don't have folks accidentally wandering in that just want to keel. Obviously I think we'll be limited to 6 or 8, I forget which.
Thoughts?
I could be persuaded to fill the role of a moving (and non-shooting) target tonight, if that helps. Optimally we'll play team training (8 players) so we can completely fill out the game with GWJers (assuming we've got exactly 8).
I can't quite put my finger on why, but to me Halo was so much better than Halo 2 in terms of multiplayer gameplay.
I know the reason why and it brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. Is the pistol from Halo back?
I've got to give this a resounding, "Meh." I like single-player first person shooters on consoles, but I've discovered that I truly dislike mutiplayer. I think it's more the ability to look around quickly than the aiming. I've got mouse look down to a science, but my left thumb just doesn't cut it for me. When someone gets the drop on me, I expect to turn around much more quickly and at least get the opportunity to shoot back, even if I die. After the past two days, I've found that I'll play for an hour and then I'm ready to move on to another game. Maybe it's the number of maps, but I think it's the play mechanics for me. Looks like I'm going to pass on Halo 3, or at least pass on the multiplayer if I break down and get it.
I like how the frag grenades don't bounce when they hit snow.
Some of the new weapons don't quite make sense to me yet.
How is the spikey grenade effectively different than the plasma grenade?
Same question for the spiker gun and needler.
Actually, the needler isn't dual-wieldable anymore. I think the optimum distance is 1.5 to 2 warthogs away from your target. I think it has a smaller clip than in Halo 2, but it only takes about 5-6 needles to kill someone and the needles no longer explode on a timer; as soon as that 6th needle hits, the guy dies.
I could have sworn I picked up two? The first couple games I played I actually thought the Spiker was the new needler replacement, so maybe my memory's just fudged. If you can't dual weild it then I stand by the idea that it's just as useless as before. Even with the improvements you're describing it's so situation specific in it's good use I can't imagine picking it up when there's so many better alternatives.
Given the range you're talking about as optimal aren't you better off with a couple of spikers or even the shotty? I know damn well I did pick one up at least once and fire it because I remember watching the needles fail miserably at tracking a target that started strafing and hopping around as soon as I fired.
I like how the frag grenades don't bounce when they hit snow.
Some of the new weapons don't quite make sense to me yet.
How is the spikey grenade effectively different than the plasma grenade?
Same question for the spiker gun and needler.
Now that Yoyoson has reminded me how little attention I pay...
Think of the Spiker as the Covenant (Brute?) equivalent of the SMG. It seems to me like it does more damage per shot than the SMG's and has an even tighter shot spread, but has a slower rate of fire. I could be wrong, that's just what I'm guessing at from one day of playing. I've obviously not used the needler enough to say anything since I apparantly can't even keep it seperate from other guns in my head. I've used the Spiker a bunch of times now though and really like it for close range stuff. I'll take two spikers over pretty much any other short range weapon except the Shotgun.
Maybe there's a better combination, but two of them seems the easiest way of doing things. I imagine a player good with the charged shot on the plasma pistol could use a spiker as it's complement and really destroy people.
I'm obviously not nearly as up on the needler as I thought I was, but I still don't think it's worthwhile to pick up over any of the other guns. I guess if I was having trouble finding something I might pick it up to complement a Battle Rifle or it's Covenant Equivalent (Carbine? I forget the name.) but otherwise.. meh.
The Brute grenade seems like it puts off shrapnel or needles or something. Otherwise I can't figure out how it's that different from the plasma grenade either.
*hugely edited*
Sorry bout that, but the more I think about this the more weirded out I am by how mistaken I seem to be on the needler. Wanted to ask more questions but didn't want to add yet another post.
Yoyoson wrote:Actually, the needler isn't dual-wieldable anymore. I think the optimum distance is 1.5 to 2 warthogs away from your target. I think it has a smaller clip than in Halo 2, but it only takes about 5-6 needles to kill someone and the needles no longer explode on a timer; as soon as that 6th needle hits, the guy dies.
I could have sworn I picked up two? The first couple games I played I actually thought the Spiker was the new needler replacement, so maybe my memory's just fudged. If you can't dual weild it then I stand by the idea that it's just as useless as before. Even with the improvements you're describing it's so situation specific in it's good use I can't imagine picking it up when there's so many better alternatives.
You're right, it's very situation-specific. If you're too far away, an AR will get you before your needles reach them. Too close, and the needles' heat-seeking doesn't get a chance to kick in. But from my experience so far, it kills more quickly than anything else at the right range. On High Ground (the map with the blown out buildings and the beach), if someone's out in the open between the chain fence and the main blast door, and you see them from inside one of the buildings before they see you, they're dead. You don't even have to aim for the head.
I'm with Bagga, but in the sense that I have a big 'meh' about the Beta. I liked Halo 2 SP, but never really got into the MP. This feels the same to me. Plus, after playing Gears, the Halo 3 kills seem to lack a certain visceral quality. They don't seem to provide the player with much of an impact..."Oh, I killed someone. Yippee?" I don't think it has to do with the lack of respawns, either -- HL2 MP leaves me with some greater feeling of accomplishment upon a kill than does Halo.
Now, I've wondered if this is in part because I suck at Halo, don't know the weapons/maps, etc. But, I suck at a lot of games I love.
At any rate, I'm sure the game will be uber successful for MP, but I can't really see loving it, myself.
Bagga -- I'm up for some Gears with you!
Played some more last night It was OK. Still don't like the circling/strafing type of gameplay. I wonder if the game is more enjoyable if people don't rush. Keep at a distance at all times, use the range of the weapons to one's advantage.
Looking forward to the single player. Might rent it.
EDIT:
I know I moan about it, but on large maps with lots of people, communication becomes mroe important. People need to stop being so shy.
In the first day of playing, I felt very "meh" about this as well. My first impression was, "It's Halo 2, but with more content." I still largely retain that impression. Halo 2 brought us XBLive play, matchmaking, the skill ranking system, and the different playlists. That was fun for a little while. There are still plenty of people who participate actively in H2's multiplayer, but I feel that its membership consists only of the hardcore at this point. The idea of competing with the great mass of f*cktards on XBLive on a ceiling-less scale of skill rating just does not appeal to me. In fact, it reminds me too much of an MMO where you're not guaranteed to get any XP or change in scenery/gameplay for your time. From my limited beta-user vantage point, it seems that Halo 3 doesn't bring us very far past this. I don't see any significant and new gameplay mechanics yet.
But for some reason I keep on coming back to this beta. I've decided to pay more attention and increase my situational awareness. This has in turn led me to play better (or like I used to), and, predictably, I'm having more fun than I had on the first day.
There's also the public excitement built up around it. I mean, this is the beta for Xbox's number one flagship series. The fact that it only lasts for 3 weeks makes it even more important that I play it right now. Almost everyone on my friends list has been playing and this has been one of the most active threads in the past few days.
Once the hubbub dies down, and once I reach a plateau in my skill level, will I still be interested? I'll most certainly purchase the game, but ultimately I'll get the most mileage out of it in Zombie Skate, where we create our own game mechanics. We don't have any indication of how much more (or less) game customization options we'll get. There are new maps, new weapons, new vehicles, but the only new core gametype I've seen so far is the VIP gametype.
If Halo 3 gave us the ability to apply restrictions on a team basis (for instance, only green team can pick up swords, red team can only pick up shotguns), that would be golden. However I have no idea if any of this was ever in the works. I suppose I should have written a letter to my senator a year ago. :/
I've got to give this a resounding, "Meh." I like single-player first person shooters on consoles, but I've discovered that I truly dislike mutiplayer. I think it's more the ability to look around quickly than the aiming. I've got mouse look down to a science, but my left thumb just doesn't cut it for me. When someone gets the drop on me, I expect to turn around much more quickly and at least get the opportunity to shoot back, even if I die.
Yeah, that aspect made Halo 2 deathmatch a hard transition for me. My conclusion--and I'm no Halo expert, so correct me if I'm wrong--is that the slow movement and turning time is just part of what makes Halo its own beast. In a PC shooter like UT2k4 or HL2DM, if someone gets the drop on you, you still have a chance to respond, outmaneuver, whatever. In Halo 2/3 multiplayer if someone gets the drop on you you're pretty much finished. The slow movement and restricted situational awareness that goes with it make knowledge of the maps, possible choke points, and weapon spawns doubly critical to allow you to make sound tactical choices about positioning, how exposed your flanks and rear may be, where enemies are likely to be coming from or camping, etc. Because a surprise attack generally equals death, you need to be actively putting yourself in situations where a surprise attack is unlikely, or at least more easily detected.
This is probably less the case for an experienced player who can easily snap off battle rifle headshots, and the deployables spice up the mix a bit too, but for a beginning to intermediate player (me) it's still key to success.
The best reason I can come up with is that Halo 3 continues Halo 2's frantic pace; both games are so much faster than the original Halo. I'm sure most people like the faster pace, but I don't. If I want to play Unreal Tournament, I'll go play Unreal Tournament. The original Halo (as my crusty ass remembers it) was slower, but it still required good reflexes and skill. Not sure how that's the case, but there it is. It just felt like... I dunno, that in the original you could plan your moves much better rather than run a constant run-n-gun orgy of killing. I dunno, maybe I'm looking at it all through rose-colored glasses.
Maybe since Halo 1 was System Link only you just never played fully-loaded maps filled with people who are basically Halo ninjas? I still play UT2k4 almost every day, and compared to that I can tell you that Halo 3 feels agonizingly slow.
My first impression of Halo 3, with 3 or 4 matches played, so far were mainly graphical. Shiny Doom with Quake 4 spaces.
The game is a bit frenetic for my taste, like H2 was, but as I play for the company, it is a minor quibble. It'll be fun for awhile. I am really looking forward to continuing the single player story line.
Hemidal wrote:I've got to give this a resounding, "Meh." I like single-player first person shooters on consoles, but I've discovered that I truly dislike mutiplayer. I think it's more the ability to look around quickly than the aiming. I've got mouse look down to a science, but my left thumb just doesn't cut it for me. When someone gets the drop on me, I expect to turn around much more quickly and at least get the opportunity to shoot back, even if I die.
Yeah, that aspect made Halo 2 deathmatch a hard transition for me. My conclusion--and I'm no Halo expert, so correct me if I'm wrong--is that the slow movement and turning time is just part of what makes Halo its own beast. In a PC shooter like UT2k4 or HL2DM, if someone gets the drop on you, you still have a chance to respond, outmaneuver, whatever. In Halo 2/3 multiplayer if someone gets the drop on you you're pretty much finished. The slow movement and restricted situational awareness that goes with it make knowledge of the maps, possible choke points, and weapon spawns doubly critical to allow you to make sound tactical choices about positioning, how exposed your flanks and rear may be, where enemies are likely to be coming from or camping, etc. Because a surprise attack generally equals death, you need to be actively putting yourself in situations where a surprise attack is unlikely, or at least more easily detected.
This is probably less the case for an experienced player who can easily snap off battle rifle headshots, and the deployables spice up the mix a bit too, but for a beginning to intermediate player (me) it's still key to success.
There is a turn rate setting in the options. It defaults to 3, I play at 6, and suggest 5 unless you plan to be a sniper.
Plus, after playing Gears, the Halo 3 kills seem to lack a certain visceral quality. They don't seem to provide the player with much of an impact..."Oh, I killed someone. Yippee?"
The Laser is certainly not lacking visceral feedback.
baggachipz wrote:I can't quite put my finger on why, but to me Halo was so much better than Halo 2 in terms of multiplayer gameplay.
I know the reason why and it brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. Is the pistol from Halo back?
It's called the Battle Rifle or Carbine, and there's about twenty on each map.
About the needler: I actually found it's effective range to be a bit farther than what Yoyoson described. Bascially, at anywhere from just outside shotgun range to just outside assault rifle range (maybe a bit more than that) I found that if I saw the person before they saw me, they would be dead, and fast. The needles actually even seem to home when you are at a range where your targeting reticule doesn't turn red. For example, in a team territories match on High Ground, I was standing up on top of the laser tower and successfully picking people off with the needler when they were down at territory 1 (where the grav lift spawns).
About the spike grenade: It is important to understand how the grenade works. When it explodes it sends out a cone of highly deadly spikes in the direction opposite of whatever surface it sticks to, and if someone is in the path of that blast they sustain much more damage than if they are in the proximity of a plasma grenade. I've found that since they are a bit larger, it is actually slightly easier to stick them to whatever you want to target, but other than sticking them directly to humans it takes a bit more skill to do damage with them because of their unique blast radius. However, it is also worth noting that unlike plasma grenades they stick to ANY surface, which allows you to set up booby traps when you are fighting in close quarters.
About enjoying the game: Personally, I've always loved Halo multiplayer. I did think that Halo 2 multiplayer felt a bit more frantic and a bit less solid than Halo 1 multiplayer, but after two nights of play, my take is that Halo 3 seems to have gone to a nice compromise between the more solid and paced gameplay of Halo 1 and the enhancements from Halo 2 that actually worked, and my immediate feeling is that more than ever before they seem to have really nailed the formula this time.
That said, I have always found that the following formula holds true about Halo multiplayer (be it Halo 1, 2, or 3).
Balance of skill level X (communication and teamwork + playing with people you know - playing with asshats or people in a bad mood) X compatibility of gametypes and player dispositions = Halo fun factor
Yeah, the same formula holds true for any multiplayer game, but for me at least the highs always feel higher and the lows always feel lower. When all the factors are just right, I have far more fun when playing Halo than in any other multiplayer game. When one or more factors are too low, though, it is much more frustrating than it is in another game. Maybe it is because I know how much fun the game could be, or maybe it is because there is no analog of deciding that you are going to do nothing but chainsaw a few fools in the face for the next couple of rounds.
In any case, I am totally stoked on this game right now, and I would be more than happy to join in with a group of players looking for some low stress practice games tonight.
Even if I'm not around, though, my suggestion would be to first form a group of 6 and do some rounds on the "Rumble Training" playlist. That will give you a collection of free-for-all gametypes where you will have a chance to run around learning the maps and playing with the weapons for a bit. Once you feel a bit more comfortable, get your group size up to 8 and switch to the "Team Training" playlist. That will give you a nice assortment of 4 on 4 team games to run and develop communication and teamwork strategies.
And finally, hopefully they will roll out the "big team battle training" playlist soon, which will allow groups of up to 12 players enter 6 on 6 games. Valhalla is just screaming for a big team CTF match, you know?
McChuck wrote:I know the reason why and it brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. Is the pistol from Halo back?
It's called the Battle Rifle or Carbine, and there's about twenty on each map.
This is both hilarious and true.
I'm enjoying the beta so far.
Thanks for the explanation on exactly how the new grenades work Zero. Given that explanation is it possible to stick someone with one and not get a kill because most of the damage is directed away from their body? Just curious. Maybe I'll start throwing them at the ground instead of at people directly.
There is a turn rate setting in the options. It defaults to 3, I play at 6, and suggest 5 unless you plan to be a sniper.
Thanks, D, I'll try it out. I think my point still holds true, though, in that movement and jumping are slow and floaty enough that you have basically zero chance for evasion if you get surprised by an enemy. A faster turn speed will help with reaction and situational awareness, but once someone has started lacing into you from behind you may as well just cash it in unless you are close enough to melee, or can pull off snap headshots at close range.
Thanks for the explanation on exactly how the new grenades work Zero. Given that explanation is it possible to stick someone with one and not get a kill because most of the damage is directed away from their body? Just curious. Maybe I'll start throwing them at the ground instead of at people directly.
No, sticking a spike grenade to a human is still a kill. But (and I've only tried this once, so I'm not sure) sticking one to a vehicle doesn't really seem to do much. Also, throwing at the ground is probably less useful than throwing at a wall, because if it is on the ground your target needs to be almost on top of the grenade to take much damage.
Map/weapon familiarity and teamwork go a long way, I think. I'd also be up for some low-key practice sessions--just getting on a team-based map, exploring it, and strategizing, without combat. You know what might be cool? Loading up some all-GWJer teams games and alternating training/strategizing rounds with actual combat/competition rounds.
I'll try and get on tonight, but it won't be until 9 or 10pm PST. Sorry about dropping abruptly last night, I had some odd crash and decided to just call it quits.
It's called the Battle Rifle or Carbine, and there's about twenty on each map.
Meh. I never felt like it was a solid replacement for the original pistol. It's a matter of personal preference and my own penchant for pistols in all FPSes, so not worth having a prolonged conversation about. That it has not returned does diminish whatever level of desire I had for this game.
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