Hellgate London catch all

Rat Boy wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Oh this is a PVP game? I got the impression that this was more like Diablo 2 with co-op PVE type stuff..

PVP (if not actual then through friendly fire) is a given in every MMORPG even though the implementation may differ. Even Diablo had it.

ahh yeah thats true.. I didnt ever engage at all in PVP.. well then yes.. if your giving paying customers a decided advantage in PVP then this will suck.

TheGameguru wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Oh this is a PVP game? I got the impression that this was more like Diablo 2 with co-op PVE type stuff..

PVP (if not actual then through friendly fire) is a given in every MMORPG even though the implementation may differ. Even Diablo had it.

ahh yeah thats true.. I didnt ever engage at all in PVP.. well then yes.. if your giving paying customers a decided advantage in PVP then this will suck.

You see, the cynic in me makes me wonder if there's some kind of hidden motive to this on Flagship's part. Make the online portion frustrating for the hard-core types who only play for free to either force them into quitting outright (they already got all the money out of them they were going to get, anyway) or to entice them into signing up for the Elite service.

Also, I've been seeing a few posts scattered hither and yon about there not being a way to play this on a LAN like you could with Diablo. Any confirmation?

I wonder if you can convert from a non-elite to an elite, and then back, and if you go back what happens to your fancy crap?

Rat Boy wrote:

Also, I've been seeing a few posts scattered hither and yon about there not being a way to play this on a LAN like you could with Diablo. Any confirmation?

From what I was seeing in other places it looks like it was confirmed in a interview, I will try and find a link

It sucks though that's there not gonna be any lan though.

LobsterMobster wrote:

I wonder if you can convert from a non-elite to an elite, and then back, and if you go back what happens to your fancy crap?

Saw this lilnked from another forum, but the original is from the HellgateGuru forums, supposedly posted by a developer/artist:

Ugh, that article totally makes everything way too confusing in my personal opinion and leaves out some important points. Also, I did not read all 25 pages of comments so I apologize if I missed something. Here are some quick points -

- Free Play-

- Does have customer support but it isn't 24/7 premium customer support. Being 'just an artist' I don't know all the specifics here.
- Can join guilds but can't found a guild or use guild officer functions.
- Can play with elite players in all areas of the game that come with the shipped game but not in new areas added post launch.
- Can not use 'elite' items. It should be noted that elite items are not more powerful/unbalanced items but rather have flashier appearances or simply new items that still fit in the overall balance scheme.
- Includes patching/balance updates. (in case that's not obvious)
- On the same secure servers as 'elite' players.

-Elite-
- Regular content updates, small ones every month and large ones every three months.
(ie. new quests, dungeons, weapons, monsters, etc. that can only be accessed by elite players.)
- Elite content will access higher
- Can create guilds.
- 24/7 Cust. Supp.
- More character slots/larger shared stash
- Additional play modes, hardcore, pvp, rp, etc..
- Hopefully there will never be server ques but -if- there are then elites get priority.

maiku- It is my understanding that all elite items (or ones in the additional storage, etc.) will be frozen if you stop subscribing but are not deleted/destroyed. I believe this also applies to additional character slots and any other elite features.

zoner - If you subscribe 6 months after release you get all the new content that had been added during the previous 6 months.

northrop - I think that's 40 slots per character.

- One account per cd key as far as I know.

So it looks like your elite items and any characters beyond the first 3 get locked if you stop your sub. Also, you won't have to worry about Elite players in PVP because as a pleb you don't get that gametype.

TheGameguru wrote:
As for the negativity in here, well, I'm sorry Certis and Gameguru, but I fully believe that the outrage from gamers in general prevented Hellgate's multiplayer from becoming severely gimped. Outrage worked in this case.

it did? how so?

Flagship, EA, and Namco were debating having a trial period for the multiplayer, or limiting the content that was otherwise available in the single player game. Who knows what they really had in mind? Only the insiders do.

I agree with the 5 dollar camp. 10 dollars alone might seem like nothing but throw in 1 or more MMOs and suddenly you're paying 30 bucks a month or more in fees.

Yes yes yes, but what about benefits for 1337 players?

I really get annoyed how each individual game wants so much from us. They used to say 'Well you could go blow $15 in an arcade in a few hours!' yeah but you'd get to play tons of different games too. My current recurring subscriptions at the moment are:

Gametap: $60/year
Xbox Live: $60/year
Lord of the Rings Online: $10/month
Gamefly: $23/month

I used to have WoW and Eve and Star Wars Galaxies. Everyone wants so much from me and they can't see that less is more. At $5 a month I'd be knee deep in just about every major MMO out there. If it were $8 I might be slightly choosier, and slightly choosier still at $10 a month but all told I'd be spending more overall. This is why Live and Gametap are on my list. LOTRO may not last, but its less than all the other MMOs out there (thanks only to the pre-order promotion) and Gamefly is a struggle every month with what games are out, that I want, and what is coming up.

I always bring this up, but its such a great case study. NFL 2k5 was $20 on the day it was launched. at about %40 of the retail price of its previous iteration, and its major rival, it sold 10x as many copies as the previous year. The company made tons more money off the $20 version than the $50 version. It was a great game to boot. It bought the goodwill of gamers (and cost its competitor like $400million since the fierce competition made them decide to stop competing and buy victory).

I like to think I've stopped taking the abuse to my wallet. Gametap gives me 1000 games, Gamefly gives me a chance to try anything I want (as long as that isnt Crackdown) Xbox Live gives me the chance to play with you fine folk. My last 4 PC purchases were 3 THQ games (they no longer have any disc protection for north american titles. Supreme Commander, Company of Heroes and STALKER can all be played without the disc. I support the philosophy, and these 3 great games. Each was also $40 or less) and Lord of the Rings Online. Other than these, a few XBLA games, and some Steam games, that pretty much sums up my purchases for the last year. Companies that offer a lot of value for the money, get my money.

The rest don't.

That turned into quite a rant

I'm responding to a bunch of posts above.

LobsterMobster wrote:
souldaddy wrote:

If they charge 2/3rds of what WoW charges, they better have 2/3rds the amount of content.

Which would be 2/3rds of jack?

LobsterMobster wrote:
RichyRambo wrote:

What an informed opinion! and you played WoW for how long?

I don't hear anyone telling me it ain't so... :)

Heh. Well, that's taking the argument to the extreme. The quests in WoW tend to be a bit whackamoleish and grindy, particularly so for solo content, but some of the solo content has been good. I've also found some fun playing with some old friends doing nothing but instances, and I also find running around ganking kind of fun sometimes on a PvP server. So, yeah, while the "story" in WoW is not that great, there's fun to be had there.

Granted, I don't feel the same level of addiction that I did with Guild Wars at its height, but like a lot of folks I'm in a "wait and see" mode with the future Guild Wars expansion/Guild Wars 2.

As an aside, LOTRO has been pretty fun as an alternative to WoW with more story. I've been playing it very casually.

Mex wrote:

I think it's a bad idea to divide the userbase like that, but what do I care. Has something like that worked before?

Dungeon Runners follows this model. You can play for free or pay a (smaller) fee for extra stuff and access to items. I don't know whether it's been financially successful though.

Also, Planetside does this, sort of. You can play free but are limited in how far you can level.

LobsterMobster wrote:

Oh, and also, this is bullsh*t. But at least it's only $10/month instead of $15. Now that I'm a homeowner and already paying over a $1200 a month in various bills, suddenly $10/month doesn't seem all that significant. So yeah, it's bullsh*t, but all subscription fees are after Guild Wars. Still, I have never seriously considered subscribing to WoW, or any other MMO, but I am considering Hellgate.

This, by far was the post that caught my eye. I mean, I only recently came to terms myself with paying a monthly fee, but Lobster? What's next? Are we next going to hear about Lobster rolling a dranei or a hobbit?

After all, Lobster, now that you can't afford all those gambling trips to Monte Carlo, you might get enough value from a subscription fee to fill the time sitting around in your house.

I wasn't all that hyped by Hellgate before - I saw it in the same category as Guild Wars so the monthly fee makes me wonder why I would pay for another pseudo-MMO. Maybe a beta will change my mind. Who knows...

Don't look at me like that, Devilstick! ;_;

One thing that doesn't quite add up to me:

Original Post wrote:

* Elite players get unique gear and can wield the most powerful weapons in the game. Said weapons can also be emailed by the Elite to others of their kind

Artist Dude wrote:

- Can not use 'elite' items. It should be noted that elite items are not more powerful/unbalanced items but rather have flashier appearances or simply new items that still fit in the overall balance scheme.

If I end up subscribing, I'll make a GwJ guild. I wonder what happens if a guild leader/owner stops subscribing... I also wonder if elite stuff is still available in single player if you stop subscribing.

I'm 99% certain that with everything I've seen & read on the title, I'll grab it for the single-player alone. There's already several people at GamingTrend who've indicated they're planning to get it too, and we'll likely party up at least for the free multiplayer. I don't have a problem with any of the stuff being "left out" for the non-subscribers.

Like I already noted, the one thing that'll make a sub worthwhile for me is solid, consistent content additions on a regular basis. They do that, and I'll sub up. I'm surprised at how contentious this is compared to stuff like the horribly overpriced Guitar Hero 2 DLC.

LobsterMobster wrote:

Don't look at me like that, Devilstick! ;_;

You have taken a step in a long journey young crustacean.

Someday, you will be ready to snatch the pebble from Certis' hand.

A letter from Bill Roper to fans.

When we first started talking about Hellgate: London, there were a lot of interpretations about exactly what kind of game it was that we were making. Our online plans are as ambitious and exciting as the game itself, so I wanted to spend a few minutes talking directly to our fans about this very important topic.

Our intent from the beginning was to provide gamers an online experience not just comparable to, but even better than, what they got from Diablo II. It has always been Flagship's goal to offer a robust multi-player experience that can satisfy players for months and even years, free from any subscription.

Hellgate: London is completely free to play online, out of the box. Anyone who buys the game can not only play through the fully randomized, storyline-driven gameplay offline, but they can also go online and share that experience with millions of players from around the world. We're excited to be able to bring gamers an amazing, free online experience that is included with their single player game.

The Hellgate: London secure online experience is structured around shared, multi-player towns linking together randomly generated, "instanced" adventure areas, unique for a single-player or group of players. Both free players and subscribers will be playing together in groups and guilds on huge realms supporting tens of thousands of players simultaneously.

We want as many players as possible to find and group with their friends online, regardless of when or where their characters were created. Gone are the days of worrying about making sure your new character will be able to play with your old friends. Everyone gets access to our secure multi-player game servers. Players can party and trade with other players and play through the entire adventure to save London from the grip of the demons.

And all for free.

Gamers also want choices, and we have so many great ideas for Hellgate: London, and the concept is so extendable, that we know we can keep adding to this game for a long time. We want to continue moving Hellgate: London forward in some really exciting directions, and to support ongoing development we've created a subscription service to give players access to new content as we go along. This commitment to our gamers was also a part of our plans for Hellgate: London from the very beginning.

In short, what subscribers are getting is new content - not simply "better" things. Another way of thinking of this would be that we're delivering smaller expansions over time rather than having players wait a year or more before they finally get something new.

We listen to our community and are making every effort to support players who want an excellent and complete experience for the price of the box alone, as well as those that want us to expand the game for years to come. Hellgate: London is a very special game to all of us at Flagship Studios. The crew at Ping0 has been working diligently on creating the best online experience possible. Together we envision launching a game that will appeal to both those who want to simply get online to play with their friends and those who want more and more from their gaming experience.

Bill Roper
Flagship Studios / Ping0

Yeah, Roper's losing points.

It's all about whether they provide enough value for the monthly fee you pay. It's not really about the monthly fee per se.

And I don't see anything that says you won't get alot of fun/value out of the box.

And I don't see anything that says you won't get alot of fun/value out of the box.

Exactly. I really don't see what all the whining is about.

On another note, has there been any discussion about how demanding this game is going to be in terms of system specifications? It seems like something that might be worth booting my computer into windows for, but I don't really have much in the way of a graphics card (and I don't really feel like upgrading it for just one game).

LobsterMobster wrote:

Yeah, Roper's losing points.

That's odd. I was going to say the exact opposite.

Trip1eX wrote:

And I don't see anything that says you won't get alot of fun/value out of the box.

Exactly my thoughts. I bought, played, and have fully enjoyed Diablo, Diablo 2, Phantasy Star Online, Phantasy Star Online 3, and Phantasy Star Universe all offline. In the case of the latter three, that means I was fully satisfied with the non-subscriber content (both single & multiplayer), and it's the same business model Flagship is doing.

I suppose I'm just going to be labeled a Flagship apologist or fanboy. *shrugs* The game might suck, or it might rock, but my opinion won't be formed based on optional premium content in this case since I don't think it's a rip-off like so much other premium content these days.

On another note, has there been any discussion about how demanding this game is going to be in terms of system specifications? It seems like something that might be worth booting my computer into windows for, but I don't really have much in the way of a graphics card (and I don't really feel like upgrading it for just one game).

The Blizzard mindset seems to be in full effect, so I would expect it to be very scalable. The screen shots don't lead me to believe they're overdoing it on non-essential detail work, so it may not be too bad. They will support DirectX 10, so high-end systems may see some benefit.

Certis wrote:

The Blizzard mindset seems to be in full effect, so I would expect it to be very scalable. The screen shots don't lead me to believe they're overdoing it on non-essential detail work, so it may not be too bad. They will support DirectX 10, so high-end systems may see some benefit.

Well, that is good to hear. Of course, there is that other nasty problem that I encounter when playing PC games. Bascially, being born and bred on console gaming I just want my games to look like they do on the box, and I have a hard time accepting when they don't. I had to play Stalker for a good five or so hours before I finally go over the fact that it could look so much better if I was willing to drop half a grand upgrading my computer. Such is life, yeah?

Since I'm a little late to the party on this;

  • I agree in part with GG's statement. The subscription will not detract from the game as it ships. In and of itself, the game should be good assuming it ships as a functional game (as opposed to Medieval 2: Total War).
  • Casual gamers will not be involved in the subscription. If you play less than 10 or 20 hours a week, I doubt you will want to incur the monthly costs for a guild you won't participate in or queues that aren't there when you join.
  • Content updates have me a little interested. How this is implemented and what they add may get me to participate but only if the game has some legs and lasts a while. A regular west coast group would need to play pretty frequently to rope me into a $10/mo charge.

Still when it's all said and done, it'll be up to Flagship as to how it is all implemented. I understand that they want to continue to build and expand the games universe and it takes money to do such a thing. It all boils down to how the subscription model plays out and whether or not the player base feels it is of a value to pay to play. For now, I will take my chances with the unwashed hordes and not be a subscription or 'Elite' player.

Penny-Arcade is jumping into the fray on this one today as well. Link.

Fixed link

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic

I LOL'd

Good stuff.

I love Penny Arcade.

One of my all time favorite PA strips.

I say that Roper's losing points because he used to be an honest, no-BS kind of guy that was just excited about gaming. More and more he sounds like a double-talking marketing guy.

LobsterMobster wrote:

I say that Roper's losing points because he used to be an honest, no-BS kind of guy that was just excited about gaming. More and more he sounds like a double-talking marketing guy.

He was on the Games For Windows podcast this week, you should listen to it if you haven't yet.

I think the most pertinant question asked of him was,"What if more people decide to play (the completely free) Mythos?" He answered it well by being diplomatically indifferent on which game was more successful so long as people were enjoying Flagship's games.

I think the point was subtly made by the question that Flagship may be shooting themselves in the foot by testing the waters on how much streaming revenue they can generate from Helgate:London. I hope he doesnt underestimate how much his audience is in the very least concerned.

Roper seems quietly confident. I hope its not a symptom of blindness.

In my mind, Flagship still hasn't demonstrated the value for my $10/month. That's not a lot to ask from someone demanding your money: "What am I paying for?" Plus, when a brand new studio launches their very first game, I would expect the studio to give a little back to their fans, in the way that Valve, Epic, and even Blizzard have done over and over. It's kinda the opposite of Ion Storm and their "John Romero is gonna make you his bitch" ad, which destroyed so much good will that the Diakatana was never given a fair chance.

Further more, a subscription fee is a commitment. You have decided to play this game for the long haul. You are investing in a character. I'm not sure I see the value in paying for more than 1 of these at a time, in which case WoW wins hands down.

souldaddy wrote:

In my mind, Flagship still hasn't demonstrated the value for my $10/month. That's not a lot to ask from someone demanding your money: "What am I paying for?" Plus, when a brand new studio launches their very first game, I would expect the studio to give a little back to their fans, in the way that Valve, Epic, and even Blizzard have done over and over. It's kinda the opposite of Ion Storm and their "John Romero is gonna make you his bitch" ad, which destroyed so much good will that the Diakatana was never given a fair chance.

Further more, a subscription fee is a commitment. You have decided to play this game for the long haul. You are investing in a character. I'm not sure I see the value in paying for more than 1 of these at a time, in which case WoW wins hands down.

Well..one could simply wait until more information and we get closer to launch in order to demonstrate that value...

Additionally.. you can always cancel after a month.. IF said subscription isnt worth it.. its not like your signing a year long contract or anything.

If I get a new computer I will problably buy Hellgate:London. I rarely ever play online so these things don't bother me.