"A cost analysis of Vista content protection"

Yoyoson wrote:

All I really want from Windows is DirectX. If we could get that going for Linux, I'd be happy.

The WINE team is working on it, but it isn't an exact science. DirectX is a moving target.

Yoyoson wrote:

All I really want from Windows is DirectX. If we could get that going for Linux, I'd be happy.

Cedega is not free, but it runs World of Warcraft completely glitch-free and without slowdown (there was a review about it specifically with WoW - no sound crackles, no framerate differences, nothing). It's ways ahead of WINE and other free DirectX emulators.

... as long as you got an NVidia card.

shihonage wrote:

... as long as you got an NVidia card.

Wow, just as I was gaining some respect for MS due to their first stable OS (WinXP) and nice console (Xbox360).

dejanzie wrote:

Wow, just as I was gaining some respect for MS due to their first stable OS (WinXP) and nice console (Xbox360).

Their first "stable AND usable" OS was Windows NT 4.0, their first stable and fully compliant with gaming OS was Windows 2000.

Windows XP is Windows 2000 with enhancements - they are both NT5.x codebase, they share the same driver model and are overwhelmingly compatible. Windows 2000 is no less stable than Windows XP is.

I know, Shiho. I meant the first user- AND gamer-friendly mainstream stable OS.

The problem with not buying Vista is that all the OEMs are going to be selling it and everyone who wants to buy their crappy HP, Gateway, eMachines or Dell system will get it whether they want it or not.

Any time I am fixing someone's HP, Gateway, Dell, etc. they always ask me what kind of computer I would recommend them to buy next time instead of what they have now, I always say nobody you've heard of. I tell them about the company I bought my computer from only because they also have Linux as an OS option when they build your computer, and they did a great job with my PC. Though Fluxcap didn't have as good of an experience with them as I did so their quality may have dropped off since I bought from them.

I'm very interested to hear how the proposed measures are not illegal. Contrary to popular belief, an EULA can not trump basic legislation.

A friend of mine hired on to MS for Vista server development. I'll ask him for his opinion once I'm back home and near my adress list. For now, this reads like just the kind of crazyness that spawned the ever-popular Sony haterade with its very obvious economic implications a year ago.

I am not a fan of a lot of Microsoft's practices but this article is just a load of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) It talks about how things "can" happen if/when devices are made, it speculates on what "might" happen, etc.

The hardware which would/could use these features isn't even made yet so there is no real way to know what will actually happen but we are supposed to fear Vista and how it will ruin our lives.

Isn't there enough stuff to hate about MS without wild speculation about something which may or may not happen when hardware is actually made?

farley3k wrote:

I am not a fan of a lot of Microsoft's practices but this article is just a load of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) It talks about how things "can" happen if/when devices are made, it speculates on what "might" happen, etc.

The hardware which would/could use these features isn't even made yet so there is no real way to know what will actually happen but we are supposed to fear Vista and how it will ruin our lives.

Isn't there enough stuff to hate about MS without wild speculation about something which may or may not happen when hardware is actually made?

Hey now this is the interweb, we don't wait for facts before the lynching.

farley3k wrote:

Isn't there enough stuff to hate about MS without wild speculation about something which may or may not happen when hardware is actually made?

I dunno. I got a microsoft webcam as a gift for the holidays, and when I tried to register it found out that I couldn't unless I joined some microsoft .net passport bs program.

When I see a company trying to pull that kind of crap, I figure most speculation about wider ulterior motives is okay.

Funkenpants wrote:
farley3k wrote:

Isn't there enough stuff to hate about MS without wild speculation about something which may or may not happen when hardware is actually made?

I dunno. I got a microsoft webcam as a gift for the holidays, and when I tried to register it found out that I couldn't unless I joined some microsoft .net passport bs program.

When I see a company trying to pull that kind of crap, I figure most speculation about wider ulterior motives is okay.

It was an actual MS web cam? They made it? If so, whats wrong with requiring you to have a MS account to register? Lots of companies do this.

I dunno...the guy (Peter Gutmann) has a Doctorate in CompSci, I tend to take his comments fairly seriously. Sure, a grain of salt or two is called for, but the guy seems to know what he's talking about.

I can see the bias evident right from the start of the article, 'tis true. But even so, the article gives me pause when considering when or even if I'll upgrade to Windows Vista. If video and sound drivers need to be that crammed with bloat to deal with DRM requirements, then one wonders how fast, clean and efficient these hardware drivers can possibly be.

Ahh well. In the end, we'll know more once the OS sees the light of day.

farley3k wrote:

I am not a fan of a lot of Microsoft's practices but this article is just a load of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) It talks about how things "can" happen if/when devices are made, it speculates on what "might" happen, etc.

I won't insult everyone's inteligence by debating whether the article is slanted or not, but what exactly is one supposed to discuss about an upcoming product, if not what "can" happen after its release?

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

It was an actual MS web cam? They made it? If so, whats wrong with requiring you to have a MS account to register? Lots of companies do this.

It said Microsoft on the box. And what's wrong with NOT requiring me to join some account program to register a single product?

BTW, when did the "lots of companies do this" standard become the test for whether someone can criticize a company for a given move? Lots of companies are filled with marketing dicks and sleazebags of varying degrees.

Funkenpants wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

It was an actual MS web cam? They made it? If so, whats wrong with requiring you to have a MS account to register? Lots of companies do this.

It said Microsoft on the box. And what's wrong with NOT requiring me to join some account program to register a single product?

BTW, when did the "lots of companies do this" standard become the test for whether someone can criticize a company for a given move? Lots of companies are filled with marketing dicks and sleazebags of varying degrees.

Signing up for a hotmail account isn't exactly the information gathering procedure you're making it out to be. I have like 5 of the accounts and only one of them contains any 'real' information. Just like my Roxio account (required for updates) contains no real information and Zebra printers.

It's a hoop to jump through and not a very high one.

You can criticize the move but using your supermarket's value card gives companies more info than you'll give up to register online for a product.

You can criticize the move but using your supermarket's value card gives companies more info than you'll give up to register online for a product.

That's why I just tell them "I'll fill this out later", and have them activate the ID on the spot. Then I never send in the information, and they never turn off the card. It's worked out great for me so far!

Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Signing up for a hotmail account isn't exactly the information gathering procedure you're making it out to be. . . .You can criticize the move but using your supermarket's value card gives companies more info than you'll give up to register online for a product.

It wasn't registering the product that bothered me, or the hotmail account. It wouldn't register the product until I joined the program. And with the supermarket I have the option to not use a value card when I buy food. That's a substantial difference. That opt out provision wasn't available when I tried to register, nor did they give me any indication that there was a consumer advantage in joining their program.

Funkenpants wrote:
Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Signing up for a hotmail account isn't exactly the information gathering procedure you're making it out to be. . . .You can criticize the move but using your supermarket's value card gives companies more info than you'll give up to register online for a product.

It wasn't registering the product that bothered me, or the hotmail account. It wouldn't register the product until I joined the .net program. And with the supermarket I have the option to not use a value card. That's a substantial difference. That opt out provision wasn't available when I tried to register, nor did they give me any indication that there was a consumer advantage in joining their program.

You have an option not to register the product as well. I do not see a difference at all. If you want to claim you can't get the full warranty (or any at all) if you don't register I'll just come right back and say if you don't use the supermarket value card you lose money immediately versuses the chance you may have to use the warranty on a product. Oh, and for what it is worth, I have never had a problem using a warranty on a product I've never registered, MS products included. That is what the reciept of purchase is handy for.

Frankly you are griping over nothing.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

You have an option not to register the product as well. I do not see a difference at all. . . .Frankly you are griping over nothing.

I always thought that registering a product is part of getting support down the road. If it isn't useful, they may as well say so. Put in something like, "Would you like to register this product? It's a totally worthless move and for our benefit only."

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

Frankly you are griping over nothing.

Then you are griping about someone griping over nothing. I'd think you'd have something better to do.

Funkenpants wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

You have an option not to register the product as well. I do not see a difference at all. . . .Frankly you are griping over nothing.

I always thought that registering a product is part of getting support down the road. If it isn't useful, they may as well say so. Put in something like, "Would you like to register this product? It's a totally worthless move and for our benefit only."

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. However it IS widely know that they (meaning all companies) will also use this as a way to market products to you.

Funkenpants wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

Frankly you are griping over nothing.

Then you are griping about someone griping over nothing. I'd think you'd have something better to do.

No, I'm responding to someone giving a company, MS in this case, a hard time over a pointless irritation. But clever attempt to twist it around there to a personal attack.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

No, I'm responding to someone giving a company, MS in this case, a hard time over a pointless irritation. But clever attempt to twist it around there to a personal attack.

I don't see how I'm giving anyone a "hard time" as much as expressing what I don't like about their way of doing business. And you got in response what you gave out. You were being deliberately unpleasant on a board that specifically aims to have pleasant exchanges, so it's no fair to call a foul now.

I don't want the thread to get locked over this. So if you've got anything more to say you can PM me and we'll have a no hold bars discussion on the topic, including the airing of grievances, festivus style.

Ghastly, you did come off quite combative in your first reply... more-so in your second. I hate to say it, but I don't see how Funken was giving MS a "hard time over a pointless irritation." Maybe if he was lobbying MS's headquarters, but saying it sucked on a private forum is hardly giving them a hard time.

Funken, I rarely ever register anything. For hardware, you can register to receive notifications for driver updates (which will typically be buried in 10-20 advertisements), but if you keep up on that kind of thing anyway, there's not much point in it. For a warranty, all you need is proof of purchase, and for the warranty to still be in effect and cover what issue you're having with it. As for .NET, you don't have to give them any info at all. I used to register .NET's just to get another free trial of AC2... I think I had about 3-4 total, none of which had any information at all that could be used to identify me, save IP logs. I'm sure somewhere down the line someone's going to realize that there are 3-4 .NET passports registered to Mr. Richard Head at blow@me.net, but I don't think they'll lose sleep over it.

As for Vista... it's an OS I don't plan on using, and one that I believe will cause problems that stretch far beyond common user issues. If it's content protection is as invasive as this post hints at, then just about every industry that relies on computers to operate (which I can't think of any that don't) will see price increases, because we all know that the increase cost will be passed on to the costumer.

Eventually the information about it will hit the mainstream media, and something might be done, but whether or not it'll be too late to do anything is really up to fate. There's not much point in "spreading the word" about Vista because it'll fall on (mostly) deaf ears. The common user isn't going to be thinking that, on a large scale, this could easily increase the gas prices another dollar at Amoco, because most of the company's administrative services run on Windows machines, that now need to be Vista-compatible so their profit-tracking software won't shut their systems down. It's a bit too complicated for the average person to bother thinking about.

Then again, this might just be internet paranoia blown outta proportion. We'll just have to wait and see, and hope it's all wrong.

We've gotten rather off-topic here, but it's worth pointing out that you never have to register a product for warranty protection. 'Product registration' is really just a way for companies to develop mailing lists of customers they can hassle to buy more stuff^W^W^W^W^W reach later to let them know about valuable products and services. The whole registration schtick is, basically, kind of a con.

Microsoft is very stupid to make you go through the Passport signup process, since registration is for THEIR benefit, not yours. They should make it as easy as possible on you, since it does you no good.

And I don't think getting upset about this fundamental design before the hardware has shipped is bad. The time to get upset is now, BEFORE people get screwed by locked-down hardware, instead of later, after they're stuck with it.

The thread had become derailed.

We get it, GWJers hate Vista. Let's group this post with the others and move on.

Edit - Malor said it first.

I don't hate Vista. I intend to put it through its paces personally before lighting my torch.

I log in to read about what games GWJ'ers got for the holidays from Greece and I see this ridiculous thread. oh wow.. another FUD thread about Vista what else is new.

Protecting HD content is less a fault of Microsoft and more a fault of the Content Makers.. blame them for the ridiculous amount of DRM that has been shipped in Vista.. and while your at it.. blame the Cable Co's and their millions of dollars spent in lobbying to keep Cable Cards out of PC's.. oh wait.. I guess thats probably Microsofts fault also? right?

Speculating that this DRM will somehow cripple any content MS deems "Protected" is classic FUD. In the end.. in 4 years time when VISTA has basically become the defacto there wont be a single Video Card or Monitor made that isnt HDCP ready.. so for Joe Consumer they simply wont give a rats ass.

Welcome back, GG.

I frankly don't give a damn about who is responsible for the DRM. It is installed in a product called "Windows Vista", this product and its features are what I'm concerned about. Whether that product is created by Apple, Microsoft, IBM, or the Vatican is only meaningful in so far as it dictates where I am to look for alternatives.

[Edited for grammar.]

TheGameguru wrote:

I log in to read about what games GWJ'ers got for the holidays from Greece and I see this ridiculous thread. oh wow.. another FUD thread about Vista what else is new.

Protecting HD content is less a fault of Microsoft and more a fault of the Content Makers.. blame them for the ridiculous amount of DRM that has been shipped in Vista.. and while your at it.. blame the Cable Co's and their millions of dollars spent in lobbying to keep Cable Cards out of PC's.. oh wait.. I guess thats probably Microsofts fault also? right?

Speculating that this DRM will somehow cripple any content MS deems "Protected" is classic FUD. In the end.. in 4 years time when VISTA has basically become the defacto there wont be a single Video Card or Monitor made that isnt HDCP ready.. so for Joe Consumer they simply wont give a rats ass.

The choice to allow for "HD" playback in Vista in the first place at the expense of severely bloating the Operating System was Microsoft's decision, no one elses.

Who wants to watch HD content on their monitor anyway ? Anyone who is interested in HD is going to use neither a monitor nor an old tube TV. They will use a widescreen TV, connected to either a dedicated player (in 4 years you mention, those players will cost 50 bucks) or an Xbox console. None of the HD-related obesity needs to exist in a general purpose Operating System, which is what Vista is.

I log in to read about what games GWJ'ers got for the holidays from Greece and I see this ridiculous thread. oh wow.. another FUD thread about Vista what else is new.

Games and Platforms is where I usually go to look for stuff about games.