WoW BHA Thoughts on the SGA

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To SGA or not SGA. That is the question. Wheither it'd be nobler to remain a farm piece or do soemthing else

I have been open about the changes in the SGA. In short, there will be no more GWJ admitted. I am told there will be no more new faces at all in the SGA. I have also heard that the expansion is postponed until January. I would like to know what folks thoughts are on any sort of alliance. Currently thre is a discussion with another guild for a regualr ZG outing. I also want to know if folks feel we should withdraw from the SGA.

Thanks,
Khush

My thoughts, in as short phrases as I am possible.

1) I strongly encourage GWJ eliminate all official ties with the SGA
2) SGA has proved to be destructive to the guild. It has become about supporting one guild at the expense of other guilds.
3) It serves none of the up and coming member, which means it would be an "alliance" (if one could still call it that) supporting only a very few remaining members of the guild
4) The argument of this thing has been divisive for months, and it's time to come to a final decision regardless of the consequences of taking a hardline stance one way or the other.
5) I realize there are some characters who would be affected by such a decision. I think it's time for them to make a choice. I wholeheartedly endorse whichever decision those people make, but the time for damaging the guild overall for a relative few needs to be over.
6) As a counter to #5, I'm pretty certain that the majority of people that were to be cherry-picked from GWJ have already left, so I doubt they'd be particularly troubled by our moving on. They got what they wanted from us, and we are the remaining bones to have meat picked off of at their convenience. Let's leave that destructive organization in the dust and take it as, hopefully, a lesson learned.

Funny. I just came over from Tactical Gamer, and I was wondering why GWJ didn't have a more active guild: from the outsider perspective, SGA is the reason.

Same perspective on the inside too. I wonder what might have happened if the energies people ended up spending on SGA had been spent on GWJ instead, had there not been the migrations, the distractions. I'm fairly certain GWJ would be a casual raiding guild all on its own.

I'm not sure if I have a right to comment since I spent just 3 months raiding and I'm currently (technically) inactive in GWJ Alliance but I can't believe anyone stuck around with SGA after the "Major Domo Leaf" incident a few months ago. To remind those that might not remember, during an MC Raid, the SGA leaders decided to immediately award an Epic drop to a player that they were friends with instead of relying on the DKP system that had been universally agreed upon. The player that gained the item also had most of the DKP points of anyone within the SGA and could have easily bid on it and won. The SGA did rewrite their rules afterwards for the Epic Quest drops but they made it based on need for the SGA rather than individual need and ultimately the decision was up to the SGA leaders.

As yet another outsider (from the BHA perspective), I'd like to encourage those who've left to strongly consider rejoining GWJ come 2007. Think of it as a New Year resolution. The expansion will change all the rules. 25 is a much more manageable number than 40.

I say this as someone who has recently "come home" from two different BWL-farming guilds to the group of friends and co-workers that I helped lure to Frostmane in the first place. We can't even run ZG yet (though our first guild run is scheduled for 11/4) but I've rediscovered the joy of the game whereas I was ready to hang it up completely a few weeks ago.

Of course, as I said, I'm just an outsider so what do I know?

My only concern is for Troll, Night, Littlerr, Khush and any others I may have forgotten who do participate in SGA. They are valuable members of the guild and I don't want to see them go. If they bless the separation, I would also say lets be done with it.

Note: man, this Foxfire2 spell check feature is the bomb.

I don't think that GWJ should be affiliated with anything exclusive.

Also, I think we've lost too much as a guild due to the SGA and have nothing to show for it, save the lessons learned.

I can't say that I'd be happy to see GWJers not in the SGA raids. We all have a blast in MC and hopefully if enough log on in BWL. Khush, Troll, Nights, Etc I think all have fun in SGA as well. Whatever you guys decide you shouldn't go with a "you can't be in SGA and GWJ at the same time" mentality. Thats not fair to those who have already joined and are raiding currently.

GioClark wrote:

I don't think that GWJ should be affiliated with anything exclusive.

Also, I think we've lost too much as a guild due to the SGA and have nothing to show for it, save the lessons learned.

I don't recall SGA ever being an exclusive thing. GWJers were always welcome to run with anyone they want.

Coping, I cannot speak for the others, but I will tell you my thoughts. I am frustrated beyond words at the narrow mindedness of the unoffical leader of the SGA. I am told that they have 40 raiders and there is no room for others. My sollution is to make a beta raid group. Allow the up and comming the opportunity to explore and enjoy end game raiding. The answer I was given was that this person couldn't go because they are already tied with the alpha group. My thought is so what. You are in the alpha group, you are not expected to be there. But I was unable to convince this person that it was a good idea for a beta group. Nor could there be a SGA ZG run because this persons guild went and they couldn't go as SGA.
I have -70 raid points to be paid back. I got lucky, the first few raids I went on a bunch of druid stuff dropped and everyone else had it. I am a woman of my word and I will raid until all my points are paid back even though I do not really like BWL. I have no problem with our pulling out of the SGA. For me it is selfish of the SGA to expect me to run with them and ignore my guildies especially when I am the guildmaster. I have alot of friends in the SGA and they are a blast to run with. I do not mean to offend any of them. I have been thinking about this issue alot lately and it has come to the point where I can no longer walk on the fence, I must choose which side of it I wish to be on. I am also hearing rumblings from within the guild that have lead me to believe that GWJ can no longer walk on the fence, but must choose which side to be on. When I have heard from folks, I will make a decision

Elysium wrote:

My thoughts, in as short phrases as I am possible.

HOLY SCHNIKES, Certis is in India and someone has kidnapped Elysium!

...now returning to our regularly scheduled very serious conversation:

I support your thinking, Khush. Our guild has seen little benefit from belonging to the SGA.

I'll catch flak for this I'm sure:
As (I believe) the longest running SGA/GWJ member I am willing to walk away from it if the guild goes.
My loyalties lie first and foremost with the Guild and to the SGA second. If the SGAs priorities interfere with the GWJ Alliances, the SGA will lose.

SGA's priorites do already interfere with the guild. I really appreciate that Nosferatu.

Whatever you guys decide you shouldn't go with a "you can't be in SGA and GWJ at the same time" mentality.

We wouldn't, I imagine, go so far as to kick anyone who chooses to run with SGA (or anyone for that matter) on their own time. However, considering the "alliance's" decision to lock out new raiders any formal (or explicitly informal) relationship no longer makes sense, and further considering how it has been little more to the guild than a syphon for many of GWJ's best member I fail to see how it serves the guild at all. It has been a cancer on the guild for a number of months, and should be excised.

I think it's time to make a choice and solidify the guild for what it is. I know some of you have gotten used to raiding and running with SGA, and my guess is that those of you who are having fun will be welcome to join CoA when GWJ changes direction. I'm pretty sure that's become the whole point of the "alliance" is to snipe preferred members from other guilds. If not, that's sure how they've presented themselves by becoming increasingly exclusive.

I would much rather personally see a few people decide to leave the guild now as a result of a complete split from SGA than three or four more exoduses like we've seen in the past. My true preference would be, however, a situation where those on the fence, and perhaps some who left reconsidered and invested the effort into making GWJ a self-sustaining guild.

The SGA is one of the reasons I've barely played WoW in the past 3 months. I joined up and went on raids with them during the summer and the whole thing put a sour taste in my mouth. The Domo leaf incident, The nightslayer incident with Duckideva, the snide remarks directed at Leap (even if they were indirect) and the general favoritism towards a certain guild was enough for me to say f*ck it. I think its kinda funny how everything went from happy go lucky "casual guild alliance" before MC...to suddenly after MC it was RAID OR DIE. The general tone and attitude of the leadership after Dusty stepped down really turned me off to the whole thing. I was basically told if I couldn't raid at least 3 nights a week that I was not wanted/needed.

Someone should do a study on how many "Im upset/disapointed" posts there have been since joining the SGA. The "Im leaving" posts arent fair because people have just grown tired of the game and not always is the SGA at fault.

I cant seem to recall a single "Im upset/disapointed" post prior to SGA.

Also if impressions of the expansion's high level areas are accurate, let the SGA eat cake. I.E. how can you require 3 raiding days a week in light of the drops that are cropping up. Let them burn themselves out of existence.

painthappens wrote:

I can't say that I'd be happy to see GWJers not in the SGA raids. We all have a blast in MC and hopefully if enough log on in BWL. Khush, Troll, Nights, Etc I think all have fun in SGA as well. Whatever you guys decide you shouldn't go with a "you can't be in SGA and GWJ at the same time" mentality. Thats not fair to those who have already joined and are raiding currently.

I see your points I am waiting for the current raiders to voice their opinions. I have not asked this question to make folks choose between SGA and GWJ and I know that the current raiders have no intention of running off to another guild. I know for me, being expected to attend 4 to 5 nights of raiding a week at 4 hours a pop is too much.

Well, I believe with Snood, I can claim to have been on the original runs with SGA as we worked on the first two giants...and I am split as to my thoughts...which I will go into in a second.

But...let me also say, my allegiance remains with GWJ, regardless of affiliation with SGA. I won't speak for him, but I'd expect Troll and Adon Jr will remain alongside us as well.

I have to walk a fine line, because I honestly believe on one hand that Dusty and Z have done a helluva job trying to walk a fine line of keeping SGA functioning. I know they have also welcomed my son into raids if he was able to get on while I'm gone, and the time Dusty let my son be the lead pulling hunter for 5 bosses remains possibly my most enjoyable night of gaming to date, and for that alone, you will not hear me denigrate them in any shape, form or fashion.

On the other hand, we all remember a couple months back when Balinor and I got into it when I asked in guild chat if we should consider other long term options/discussion seeing how COA was growing and eventually, I expected just such a 'lock' on new members. Someone immediately told Z and she was somewhat concerned with my comments. My comments to Bal weren't pretty afterward. This is just one example of the 'conflict' that has existed between the hard-line raiders and the nature of our guild since day one being casual.

Here's some names...Storm, Duclama, Peec, Jut, Crazy, Frere (add Gumbie if you look at his comments above) - just to name a few who have in effect decided in large part due to our SGA dealings that they didn't fit in that model. These weren't casual gamers folks, but much of the original structure of the GWJ Alliance. Others have joined COA as invited - and generally, we have wished them all well as they moved on (whether to COA or other guilds), and we all know the incidents wrt Twists of Fate and their leaving SGA. Quite frankly, there was a time for me that I considered that ToF was the guild for me because of how our guild was no longer becoming a relaxed casual gaming guild.

Has SGA been divisive to our guild? yes...it has.
Has it benefited out guild? (in many ways, such as experience, friendships and equipment) absolutely yes...it has.

Anyone forget that first night we took down Rags?

We have to weigh it all, and if a lot think its divisive, and the fact that no new GWJers can join in the raids is a big point. I will refrain from voting for now, but you all know I was the impetus for the ToF/GWJ ZG runs, and I continue to push for Thursday night GWJ runs...and anyway, if the SGA asked me to run with them in MC or Ony or BWL when I return, I will be honest, that if I didn't have a commited GWJ run, and was actually available to get on and play, I would run with them if I'm available to do so, and hope this didn't conflict with our casual nature. That said, both my 60's remain part of GWJ...

I have to think we've probably lost about 20 Level 60's to other raiding guilds over the years...maybe some will come back, maybe some will leave their alts with us...who knows? I for one am with the guild...regardless of the direction. The majority of the 10 or so people I've invited/pulled into our guild remain with us...so my loyalty lies here

Will be a month or two more before I make it back...but I am with GWJ.

Long live our guild, I do miss you all.

Pigpen

[Edited out because it's still being quoted]

I just wanted to stress that if thre is any question on it: Those of us who left GWJ for CoA we in NO war recruited, pressured, or even asked something of the line of "when are you comign to CoA". Dusty and Z and all of CoA do not roll that way. I left to join my brother mainly and also because as you know we tried to run GWJ only runs and the only ones who were showing up on a regular basis were the 5 who left and Khush. You can't run ZG, UBRS, LBRS, MC, Naxx, AQ ETC with 6 people show up. Think about the ToF ZG runs. The last time I went there were a total of 2 (including me) GWJ people who showed up.

Paint we understand the frustration involved for those who want to do the higher level stuff and the lack of numbers to do so. I know you guys were not recruited because I asked I have nothing but good wishes for those who have chosen a guild that fits more to their play style and I know that we can always run togther My complaint is with current SGA policy and the lack of inclusion for anyone who is up and comming to 60. Also, there have been many discussions between myself and Zil of which you are not aware of and I will not post here as it will serve no purpose.

PurEvil wrote:

The SGA isn't helping GWJ. They tailor their rules to suit themselves. The "have to have 3 raiding guildies at one time to roll on anything" easily proves this. Why? Why would we need three GWJ'ers on at one time to roll on an item? they can walk all over us, and even if we leave, it's not going to affect the SGA. We're not seen as equals, contributing to the SGA, but as a lesser group that's just there to mooch off them. That item was seen as more valuable than the GWJer who rolled and won on it, and as such, they asked that person to give it back.

There is a rule that 3 guild members must be present to roll on the cores in MC. We didn't have 3 that night. I do not agree with the rule, but it is there and thus we abide by it.

This has had me worried as well, and mainly because I know how Kiri plays. I know she'll repay the SGA, because she's a woman of her word, and she was lucky to have so many drops on her first few runs that only she could use. But it still worries me, because she's starting to move from fun game play to work here. I swear if we could pool some gold together to buy her -70 raiding points out, I'd contribute a good deal of my gold to it. It's hard to contribute even 2-3 nights per week to 3+ hour raids... and to ask that for consecutive weeks at a time is just insane.

I think my main Vorcha earned 80 or so DKP during my brief stint with the SGA. Kiri, if the overlords of the SGA will allow it, you can have all them to clear your debt with them.

Kiri wrote:

Paint we understand the frustration involved for those who want to do the higher level stuff and the lack of numbers to do so. I know you guys were not recruited because I asked :)

I know YOU know that. I just wanted to be sure everyone else did as well.

[Edited out so that it doesn't get quoted].

Elysium wrote:

Same perspective on the inside too. I wonder what might have happened if the energies people ended up spending on SGA had been spent on GWJ instead, had there not been the migrations, the distractions. I'm fairly certain GWJ would be a casual raiding guild all on its own.

Therein lies the problem. There is no such thing as a "casual raiding guild". There are however "casual" guilds that do things like UBRS/LBRS, Strat, Scholo, ZG and AQ. That is exactly what GWJ is. I know because I lived the dungeon dance for almost a year with the GWJ tag over my head. A "raiding guild" has 40-50 people who are willing to show up for 4 hours at least once a week. They're willing to comply with a DKP system and they set a much higher expectation for their players and their performance. GWJ is not, and to the best of my experience, has never shown the type of commitment necessary to be a raiding guild. Although that sounds like a condemnation, its really not meant to be. Being a "raider" isn't always all it's cracked up to be.

Numerous people have tried to push GWJ into some of the more difficult encounters and have failed, myself included. Over a year ago we had 30 level 60 players and we couldn't even form a ZG run. It's great to talk about raiding when you're level 45 and you think you'll be able to do it under the current guild structure. It's a real slap in the face when you've been 60 for 5 months and can't get 20 people to show up for 2 hours.

GWJ has never been a "raiding" guild and there's no shame in that. Let's stop pretending it is or will be. GWJ in my vision is a group of players that show up when they feel like it and march to the beat of their own drummer. Unfortunately that doesn't fit for a lot of people when they stagnate at 60. Just look at the talent that has left GWJ so that they'd have the opportunity to experience the end game content. If all of GWJ reassembled under one tag again it would be one of the largest, most experienced and talented guilds on the server.

GWJ is what it is, condemning the SGA is just blaming someone else. What do you really expect the level 60's in GWJ to do if they can't raid with the SGA?

Ditch SGA, we have a lot of new and soon-to-be-60s, and while we might not get in-guild 40 person raids going, it'll probably go a long way to everyone having more fun. Froma selfish perspective, I'm going to want to run BRD a bunch in the near future, and I hope there are some guildies around to help

Bear wrote:

It is what it is, condemning the SGA is just blaming someone else.

I'll concede that, as well as the fact that having never seen the end game content, or what's involved, that I'm only basing my opinion on things I've heard, and the splits that I've seen in my relatively short time I've been in WoW (just hard to see good guys go, I guess). I guess just ignore my opinion guys... I probably shouldn't have posted what I did (and having had most of my post quoted, I can't exactly go back and edit it out... oh well).

Would the GWJ folks who raid with SGA still be able to do so if we cut our official ties with them? As much distaste as I have for all the divisive SGA-related drama, I'd hate to see some of the most active and helpful members of our guild essentially be unable to participate in the high-end game until the expansion drops.

Bear wrote:

GWJ is what it is, condemning the SGA is just blaming someone else. What do you really expect the level 60's in GWJ to do if they can't raid with the SGA?

I for one would like to do UBRS, DM, etc. just like you say. You seem to be simultaneously saying that we are not a raiding guild and we should admit it, and, that if we are not a raiding guild we are nothing. We've been over and over this ground a thousand times, between this and GWJ Horde. Everyone knows GWJ cannot raid on its own regularly. The issue with SGA is that nobody else new from GWJ is welcome, so the question is do we sever ties in order to (hopefully) take advantage of some new opportunity when it comes along. In the meantime, there is still plenty of fun to be had.

I'm going to post not to start a huge flame war but to clear up a few things and to support Bounce, whom I've been friends with since I started to play.

This has had me worried as well, and mainly because I know how Kiri plays. I know she'll repay the SGA, because she's a woman of her word, and she was lucky to have so many drops on her first few runs that only she could use. But it still worries me, because she's starting to move from fun game play to work here. I swear if we could pool some gold together to buy her -70 raiding points out, I'd contribute a good deal of my gold to it. It's hard to contribute even 2-3 nights per week to 3+ hour raids... and to ask that for consecutive weeks at a time is just insane.

When we started raiding and letting in people after establishing ourselves in MC we knew that a lot of people would go negative. There was a lengthy discussion as to what to do with the possibility that people wouldn't be able to recoup those points and the fact that Khush has -70 pts is in no way a debt she MUST pay back if you guys choose to go another direction. If you guys choose to part ways with the SGA I will take care of the points issue and there will be no hard feelings and no required amount of cash to pay back

There's a huge amount of disappointment from my point of view that this can't be solved amiably but I don't think that the negative point count or raiding in general should be seen at all as a required job. If you're not having fun raiding, don't raid. WoW is a game and the second it gets as serious as this post has gone we should all step back, take a breath and ask if raiding is the way you want to go. If GWJ chooses to run any instance, 5-40 man, it will take 1 and a half to 4 hours, no matter what instance you go to. That's why the 45 minute Baron run is as daunting as it is. Deadmines takes a while to accomplish if you don't have level 60 help. Time committment is part of running these dungeons, it's just a part of the game.

The SGA isn't helping GWJ. They tailor their rules to suit themselves. The "have to have 3 raiding guildies at one time to roll on anything" easily proves this. Why? Why would we need three GWJ'ers on at one time to roll on an item? Because the raid isn't 40 SGA members, that's why.

This came up long before I left the GWJ when we constantly had +8 raiders and I was actually part of putting this into play. If the GWJ supplies 20-25% (8-10) of the raiders, and another guild supplies 1 raider, why should the guild that has only 1 representative get 1/4 of all the mat drops? We had a couple guilds when we were running with 5-6 guilds only send 1-2 members and walking with more supplies than GWJ or CoA were taking home.

Guardians of Lighte only had 3 level 60 people in their guild and only 1 person was actually raiding, yet they were taking home 1/4 of all the MC mats. How fair is that to guilds supplying 8, 15, 20 members and getting the same amount of mats as the guild sending 1 member? As to the tailoring of the rules, this was a an all guild decision on how to deal with the problem. Deepsea can vouch for the fact that this decision was discussed and the outcome was agreed on by all guilds. We were both included in the decisionmaking process.

Also if impressions of the expansion's high level areas are accurate, let the SGA eat cake. I.E. how can you require 3 raiding days a week in light of the drops that are cropping up.

I have never seen, nor been a part of anyone being told they are required to raid. There are 3 raiding days to accomadate those that can't make certain days so everyone has an opportunity to hit a high level instance during the week. If we had required raiding the SGA would be nowhere near where it is now. If you don't want to raid, then don't go. But if you expect that you raid 1 time a month and you'll get fully equipped on that day, expect disappointment. This game is equal to what you put into it.

All this being said, my opinion might not mean much since I have left the guild, but don't think it's fair to leave 100% of the angst that the GWJ is feeling at the feet of the SGA. Casual gaming is fine, people have other things they'd rather be doing than playing WoW. I, and many others that left the guild have offered up our help many a times to GWJ, seeing as they are still friends/family to us, but I've never had a single person ask to do any runs. This is why many of us left the guild, why before we left, we resorted to running 4 man instance runs. I hold no ill will against the GWJ for this, it's the choices that we made, but the tone of this thread is decidedly negative, and personally, I think beneath the GWJ. If you guys want help running something, give me a shout. I hope that you all remember that just because we have different guild tags doesn't mean we can't still be friends and sorry about the really long post.

Hubb,

What I'm saying is that to be a raiding guild you need 40 people that are willing to show up. Achieving that has been GWJ's achilles heel for almost 2 years. I never meant to imply that "raiding" guilds are somehow superior to non-raiding guilds. They just have more people, a formalized structure and and are more accustomed to working with large groups of people. It doesn't make them better, it just makes them different. I said a couple of weeks ago that Blizzard has done more than to destroy small guilds than anyone. If the largest instance was only for 20 people GWJ would be one of the top guilds on the server. Look at the amazing talent that has either left GWJ or stopped playing: Leap, Aphesian, Norbert, Baseball, Aia, Pinchy, McFinn, Erashna, Alandestar, Crazy Ivan, Thumps, etc.... The list goes on and on.

If SGA is not accepting or allowing new participants then you have a new problem. I respect and admire your desire to run UBRS, DM etc... That's the fun part of the journey, getting to 60 so you can do that. The challenge comes when you've been 60 for a year and have run those instances several hundred times.

I sincerely believe that the Burning Crusade may be just the shot in the arm that guilds like GWJ need.

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