WOW - Blackhand - New SGA loot rules

Farscry wrote:

As an audience member here but not a member of any of this mess, I do have to say that I'd side more with Crazy Ivan and Lock & Load's perspectives here rather than Guru's. If they want to have that practice of just outright giving stuff to people that "deserve" it the most, then that needs to be established in the guidelines ahead of time. It's only fair.

Understood.. it should be clearly posted in the Raid rules for these specific items.. usually its one item is bid for and then the next is awarded.. then it continues down that line..

So say there is a bid for the sinew..then the next time the leaf drops it awarded to the person who had the sinew already to complete the bow.

but if the next time you go no hunter has the sinew then the leaf goes up for bid.. and then the next sinew that drops is freely given to the hunter who previously won the leaf.

When the item dropped from the chest, myself and the 7 or 8 hunters in the raid let out a collective holy $%#@ and smiling ear to ear. Then Dusty announces to the raid....well a certien hunter in the group has the dragon sinew from Ony already...so he will get it.

There have been a couple of times lately where something drops, and then Dusty says "We've been talking about this and we decided..."

Well, that may be, but clearly, it wasn't communicated, and it _looks_ suspicious and _seems_ like favoritism.

No, it probably isn't that, but it _seems_ like it to everyone not a member of CoA that are excluded from a _chance_ at the item.
I don't think Dusty is trying to do anything shady, but not posting about these discussions _publicly_ and then when an item drops, suddenly everyone is told about a decision that was made semi-privately just _seems_ suspicious.

I personally think it's all above-board, but all such discussions/decisions should at least get a "we're talking to guild reps about how to handle drop X" post. It would eliminate all of these "WTF? Where did that come from? Why is it always in favor of CoA members? We _who_?" sentiments when it does happen.

Much better to let folks know that there's been discussion on something _before_ it drops than when it drops.
IMO.

Crazy_Ivan wrote:

Buncha stuff that really seems unfair...

WTF? Have you said anything to Leap about this? I'd really like to get an explanation of the logic there.

Why have rules if they aren't "really" rules, but are just rules that benefit some people? Like not 3 days after the new rule about raidx3 before loot, every run I was on, a new player got loot. Not that I'm saying it should have been DE'd instead of going to him, but what the hell was the point in this rule, if it's not really a rule.

It goes back to me saying that I feel like this rule was a direct result of me getting an epic...and that pissed people off, so they made this rule...but then the rule was going to screw with people they liked, so they revoke the rule when they feel like it. Thus, it's not a rule, it's not even a rule of thumb, it's just crazy.

Ivan, you should IM Leap about this. I too would like to hear the logic behind why nobody else got to roll on this item, it was just handed out. What other items can we expect that our guild will never get a chance to roll on? We should know going in what we can expect or not expect.

The head of Onyxia had a situation like this, IIRC, but immediately after, the rule was posted with details. Would've been better to have the rule posted beforehand, though.

nm

I'm sad I missed out on downing Domo since I was on the first 2 attempts at him. I missed all the drama when the hunter loot dropped. I've learned a lot from Aphrodis (who is also Imyourpal) in various smaller groups that I've been in with him. He knows the game mechanics well and he's helped me out quite a bit.

But I have to agree with LockandLoad on this one. He's on almost every raid and he could have easily trumped everyone in the bidding process for the feather. This would have been in keeping with the established policies that the SGA has. Hell part of the reason I even attend these raids is so that I can knock the other warriors that are above me on the loot table down a rung and therefore have a chance at loot later. I was #3 on the totem pole before I split last week so I'm sure I'm going to need to start climbing the ladder again.

Even though he had the sinew that shouldn't entitle him. If someone else had received the feather then would they automatically be entitled to the sinew next time (even though Aphrodis had to bid on it)? Not requiring him to bid on epic loot is like giving a billion dollars to Bill Gates because the billions he already has might be getting lonely. It's too bad they chose to ignore the rules in this case - or at least warned everyone what was going to happen.

Let's be honest here - the SGA has already picked out who their first three primary players are in most classes. It's been based on a number of reasons (like regular attendance) and I agree with the need for placing certain regulars on a pedestal since it does benefit the group as a whole. Maybe I'm just imagining things but sometime SGA raids seem like a high school popularity contest. If you aren't one of the pre-selected "in" people in a particular class chances are you simply will not have the same opportunities (loot or otherwise). Most of the time when you aren't within the circle these raids are kind of boring. You're part of the "everybody else" crowd and you end up with a big repair bill and a sense of being jilted somehow.

I like seeing end-game content in these raids and for that I am thankful for all of the effort that Dusty and Zilt put into this. But I generally have more fun in smaller instances with GWJ people. Less drama, better friends. I'd like to beleive that these raids could someday hold that same sense of fun but it just seems like the closer you get to that magic number of 40 people the more of a headache it becomes.

No, it probably isn't that, but it _seems_ like it to everyone not a member of CoA that are excluded from a _chance_ at the item.

Aphrodis/Imyourpal is from the Kings Army.

and it _looks_ suspicious and _seems_ like favoritism.

IMO (and maybe I'm off base here) there is a distinct favoritism within the SGA which targets members of CoA and a few members from Kings Army. Most of these people who do get favoritism are great players and I truly like grouping with them so it's kind of tough for me to really hammer them. And sometimes this favoritism is justified (Dusty for example). But if we're just talking about perceptions here - my perception says GWJ people tend to get overlooked (and not just with loot) in these raids.

I'm really not trying to completely bash the SGA here. They're providing an opportunity that most of us would otherwise not have. Some of these decisions that seems like favoritism may actually have valid reasons that (I guess) the masses aren't privy too.

The problem with any alliance is the ease with which conflicts arise in the abscence of proper communication. Doing things like posting rules after the fact or pulling a "We've been talking about this..." just doesn't cut it. All the more so when you're dealing with a major proportion of people within the alliance (such as GWJ in the SGA).

Better communication = Happier Alliances

I stand corrected on the guild association.
But I also agree that

Better communication = Happier Alliances

which is all I was trying to get at.

Obviously I'm a long way from 60 and worrying about these headaches, but from a fairness point of view, breaking the rules generally stinks, and breaking them in order to give someone an Epic item for free that they could have easily bought because they are the richest guy on the block is ridiculous.

Reading all of this drama the past week or two has caused me to no longer be in such a hurry to get to 60.

I can't say I'm too happy about seeing this thread degenerate into a SGA basing. I do what I can to try to keep everyone happy, but it is not easy. I can understand that some folks are upset about the hunter loot. Sure its a bit of a kick inthe nuts, but at the same time, do you really think its fair for someone who has no chance to COMPLETE the quest due to not having all the items, get the piece over someone who has all the items?

Aphrodis got the item w/o having to roll on it because he was the only person there with the Sinew. If Balinor and Delphyne were there, they would have all rolled. Once those with Sinew have the leaf, then those w/o can roll on it. I don't see this as a big deal. So you wait a couple more week for the leaf....you still need the sinew to complete the quest. (We'll do the same thing on the Sinew if there are folks with the Leaf and just need the Sinew)

Seeing all the whining and crying about loot is really starting to make me want to just put the SGA to bed. Its silly that a purple/orange colored item causes this much drama. We're trying to make things as fair as possible for all those involved. It makes more sense to give the really rare items to those who attend raids frequently, rather then to those who show up once in a blue moon.

Honestly if things are really as bad as you say they are, and I'm such a terrible person who ignores GWJ and favors other groups, please don't even bother coming on any SGA raids anymore; its ruining your fun and giving me a headache.

Seeing all the whining and crying about loot is really starting to make me want to just put the SGA to bed. Its silly that a purple/orange colored item causes this much drama.

It's not an item, it's being surprised with new loot rules on the fly when an item drops.
As I said above, I do think you're doing a good job, and I don't think you intended any favoritism, but announcing a new loot rule on the fly, when an item drops, _looks_ "unfair", for lack of a better word. I'm sure you did discuss with some guild reps, but it was still a surprise to many people just as they were getting excited about having a shot at something really neat.

I doubt it was intended, but a lot of "WTF?" would be avoided by everyone know, in advance, that there are at least discussions of maybe a given loot piece having special rules rather than the stated rules.

It makes more sense to give the really rare items to those who attend raids frequently, rather then to those who show up once in a blue moon.

Dusty, I mentioned this before but isn't that the entire point to the DKP system? If you look DKP on Wikipedia it states the following...

This system allows more active members to receive more/better rewards, whereas those who contribute less receive less in turn.

If the Leaf went to bidding as it should have, then theoretically the outcome would have been the same anyways. The fact that it was handed out for free to a specific person, and without any warning in advance to the other raiders is what strikes me as odd. That's the sort of crap you see happen in PUGs when someone decides to ninja loot off a boss in the middle of a fight. Amend the rules for when this scenario occurs in the future but the raiders should have been made aware of the Leaf situation before a single arrow was fired at Domo.

EDIT - Also, Balinor told me that he had to use his DKP to bid on the sinew. That set the presidence that epic quest items like this should be bid on.

Dusty wrote:

buncha stuff

Dusty,

This forum is the only one we have to discuss things as a guild. Alliance members need to be able to have conversations on their own guild sites that don't provoke comment from SGA members. If we wanted to have an SGA discussion, we would have had it on the SGA site.

I'm sorry if you've gotten your feelings hurt, or feel offended by something that a member of the GWJ guild has said, but you went looking for the content, we didn't bring it to you.

I perceive your message to be that you don't think we should be having this discussion, in our own guild area...away from the rest of the alliance...amongst ourselves.

The Disciples of Slack had to lock down their entire site to members only because of similar behavior, and I don't want GWJers to feel like they can't talk about the game, the alliance, their level of bummitude about not getting some phat loot they wanted. This is any area where we talk. Sometimes we Female Doggo. Some times we rant and rave and stomp about. It's our sandbox, we're allowed.

If any one of us that are members in the SGA had wanted to bring something up for discussion with other SGA members, we would have put it in the common forum. The fact is, that not a single GWJ member has ever caused drama in the SGA forums, on the raids, in raid chat...nothing. Any issues we may have, we discuss amongst ourselves. We don't try to seed discontent in other guilds, we don't stir up trouble in the raids. What I fail to understand is, if this has no impact on you, why do you go to the guild's websites just to read the Female Doggoing?

Everyone here has acknowledged that you rock as a raid leader. What people are Female Doggoing about is that members had no knowledge of these loot rules beforehand. The issue here is communication. If guild leaders agreed on something, then a sticky note should have been added to the forum with the rule changes. Rules should be clear and posted, so there can be no confusion down the line.

Honestly if things are really as bad as you say they are, and I'm such a terrible person who ignores GWJ and favors other groups, please don't even bother coming on any SGA raids anymore; its ruining your fun and giving me a headache.

Dusty - In no way shape or form are we saying, or even trying to ellude to, the idea that you're a terrible person/raid leader. Myself and others have specifically pointed out exactly the opposite on more than one occassion. You have a very high position of respect from the members of GWJ. You also have a thankless task as evidenced by all of the effort it takes to govern this type of alliance.

All of us owe you a debt of gratitude for cementing this alliance and running these raids.

When I speak of favoritism I'm being sincere. However I'm equally sincere in reiterating that I beleive a lot of this favoritism is not only justified but necessary.

I'm speaking from my perceptions here and, admittedly, my perception is decidedly skewed when compared to some of the SGA vets. I've only been on 8 raids and I've been absent for the last 3 weeks to boot. You began the SGA raids what - a year ago? I've learned quite a bit from you on these raids but I'm still quite new to all of this. All the same we are entitled to our own observations. My personal observations aren't fact, as much as anyone else's are, but they are mine and I speak sincerely.

For the record - I hold Aphrodis/Imyourpal at the same high-level of respect that I do you. I've had the pleasure of being in a party with him on occasions outside of raids and I've learned a great deal of the game from him too.

I apologize if anything that I've said has been cause for any drama (resulting in your headaches). Everyone knows that is precisely what we do not need now.

From the SGA site...

Dusty has stepped down...
Added by Ziltaura on 6/29/2006 3:47 PM

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First I'd like to make sure everyone knows....I'm not ending the SGA. We have a great bunch of people that want to raid and have fun just like D and I do. Here is my chat msg with my husband after he asked me to log in and handed over guild leadership to me...not asking my permission either
TerriLambert04: why'd you do that

dewittlionheart: cause i don't wanna be leader anymore
TerriLambert04: but your more lvl headed than I am
TerriLambert04: are you leaving ?
dewittlionheart: no
dewittlionheart: just tired of dealing with everything
dewittlionheart: and everyone
dewittlionheart: and holding their hands
dewittlionheart: and kissing their ass to make them happy
dewittlionheart: i'm done
dewittlionheart: i'll do whatever ppl tell me to do
dewittlionheart: but thats it

So...this hurts me something awful. We game together and have for many years now. We want to play WoW and have fun with our friends. Having said that....I am not going to deal with the constant whiney tells that D did during raids...simply if you don't like the way we do things in the SGA...hit the road. Plenty of us are having a blast.

We have ALWAYS distributed loot the most fair way. We need people raiding that are geared up and can handle the next event we decide to take on. We don't need people geared up that raid with the SGA 20% of the time. And there will be people that whine about that....I'm done with whiners. I'm not a babysitter. If you want to raid with SGA...then by all means...lets raid. But the constant waa waa me me me I don't get anything...but oh wait...I don't even realize I'm there 19 out of 41 raids...how selfish of me.... has got to stop.

We're to the point in the SGA that I honestly think we're gong to start losing good, fun people. Why? cuz they're sick of hearing the whining too. All it takes is 1 or 2 whiners to ruin a fun, hassle free GAMING EXPERIENCE.

So again....D will play...but as you read, he's finished dealing with the crap. WoW is no fun for him anymore and that's ridiculous. We're going to have fun in the SGA, if you want to be a part of that then raid...if you don't feel you can then please leave. Seriously, a few are very close imo.

There has NEVER EVER been a decision made by...D and I alone. I have gotten with Turmeric, Bigcheese, Aphrodis almost always....why? cuz they're around. It's almost impossible to run a guild/be a leader and deal with issues when you don't have a representative on more than...20% of the raid time.....The hunter/priest quest pieces...were discussed with some hunters and priests. I'm not going out of my way to track people down that log on for 20% of the raids...to discuss a matter that involves people who raid 75% and above. Again...common sense.

To those that like the SGA...kudos to you all for making the SGA happen and we will continue to thrive as long as I have you all with me. See ya in game!!

Not sure what to say... I am just an occassional raider and I had a blast with the SGA when I was actually able to group with them. My previous comments were not aimed at hurting anyone but intended to help clear up the rules so that they would benefit all of the guilds & players involved. Hopefully Dusty will still lead everyone into monster-filled dungeons of doom and keep us from wiping even if he isn't directly in charge.

I have not raided with the SGA. I do not have a lvl 60 char with which to do so.

I have to say, that I feel that the underlying issue is being glossed over. Communication is obviously lacking. I do not know if the loot rules are posted on the SGA website. If they are, then people attending SGA raids are under the onus to know what the rules are. If they're not posted, how are individuals supposed to find out about things like the latest drama bomb causer?

If the rules are posted, but something like "Hunters who already have the Aged Dragon Sinew will receive priority on the Petrified Leaf from Majorodomo's chest" isn't up there, can't you understand why people would be upset if an item that, at first glance, appears to be a need roll for all hunters is looted... and then is just given to one member of the raid?

I think the point has been made already, more concisely, and more intelligently... but the gist is this. I don't think the most recent problem was due to whiners... it was due to a (lack of | mis)communication.

The best thing to do in order to resolve the problem, is to improve that communication. Whatever it takes... posting the loot rules, making sure special situations are covered, etc.

That's just my opinion as an outsider, who hopes to someday participate in SGA raids.

I was going to say that I think the words "whining" and "crying" shouldn't even enter into these discussions, but, you know, all this, I'll politely call it "complaining" about people bringing up real issues that need to be discussed openly is giving me a headache. Honestly, after the insulting tone of Zilt's comments, I don't think I could ever have fun on an SGA raid again. If a term like "hit the road" isn't adding drama to the situation, I don't know what is. I don't think it will be any big loss to the raid guild, but consider me "hitting the road". I intend to have fun with my limited WoW time.

I'm truly sorry Dusty felt like he was being attacked, I don't think that was anyone's intention, I join those that hold Dusty in high regard. I'm also sorry he got sick of dealing with the drama, but, this has to be said, it wasn't Domo that dropped the drama, and it wasn't CrazyIvan either, it was the suddenness of the rule change. Tyrian got it right, it was a drama causing bomb. We all make mistakes, and it's best to own up to them and move on. I was the one that suggested that CrazyIvan post about his concerns, thinking that we're all adults here and these issues should be fleshed out in an adult manner, undoubtedly leading us all to a better place of communication and understanding. Guess I was wrong. The last thing I ever imagined was that it would degrade into name calling.

As a disclaimer for SGA members reading this thread, please do not attribute my comments and reactions to anyone esle in the GWJ guild, I'm sure there are lots of good players that are still having fun and want to continue raiding with the alliance, I'm only speaking for one person here.

I have to say, that I feel that the underlying issue is being glossed over. Communication is obviously lacking. I do not know if the loot rules are posted on the SGA website. If they are, then people attending SGA raids are under the onus to know what the rules are. If they're not posted, how are individuals supposed to find out about things like the latest drama bomb causer?

Yes, they are posted, and more than once, recently, a "special case" was instituted on a drop when it dropped, ad hoc. No advance warning, just "we discussed this and we decided x" - well, that's nice, but it wouldn't have caused any drama if a post had been made at any point before said drops saying simply "we're discussing special loot rules for items such as A, B, and C".

Instead, an ad hoc "loot council"-style decision is made on the spot, completely counter to the stated loot rules.

I was going to say that I think the words "whining" and "crying" shouldn't even enter into these discussions, but, you know, all this, I'll politely call it "complaining" about people bringing up real issues that need to be discussed openly is giving me a headache. Honestly, after the insulting tone of Zilt's comments, I don't think I could ever have fun on an SGA raid again. If a term like "hit the road" isn't adding drama to the situation, I don't know what is. I don't think it will be any big loss to the raid guild, but consider me "hitting the road". I intend to have fun with my limited WoW time.

I found both Dusty's "whining and crying" comments - if you reread the posts, I know I didn't do any whining, and I didn't notice any - as well as Zilt's "if you can't abide by the rules, go away" - which was ironic - to be a pretty good example of the whining and crying that were decried as well as a little passive aggressive.

Whatever.

I made a suggestion about communicating at least the fact that there were discussions for special case loot rules before a special case dropped to avoid the appearance of impropriety - and I was pretty clear that is was an appearance, and that I didn't really think Dusty was being shady - and if that's whining, someone find me a flux capacitor, because I don't want to go back to high school days.

If an SGA member guild can't openly discuss/vent/yes, even whine/Female Doggo/and moan about sh*t on their own website without being eavesdropped on - I don't recall asking for a babysitter - there's more wrong with this situation than ad hoc loot rules.

Too bad there's no way for me to "cash in" my earned DKP and just move on. If I'm the whiner, I'll gladly find someone else to raid with, it's not that hard, but I did get to see Ragnaros, so that's cool. I don't guess I can will my DKP to a guildie, eh?

I'm with SillyRabbit, and Peec mentioned this too - I think I'll find something else to do. There's plenty of 5-mans I haven't seen all of, and if you've never done a run with Deepsea, you're missing out. He's a great group leader. I think I'll stick to 5-man and 10-man for a while.

This is still a game right? I've had less serious discussions at work, and it makes my divorce paperwork seem like light, fluffy reading. At what point do you ask yourself if you need such rigid structure and pre-determined roles in your escapist entertainment?

Do you like being told what to do by managers (i use that term loosely) in the game world, who for the most part don't have any real life management training? It's no wonder things digress to high school drama and backstabbing when you try to mimic the structure but don't have the experience of managing real life adults and situations.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular, I just find the whole thing rather depressing to read through. Games are supposed to provide a nice diversion from a rough and tough day working for the man, and not an annoyance which upsets you as a real life job would.

It would be nice to see more of a focus on 5-10 man raids with equal loot to avoid these types of situations altogether. Some of the best times I had were with smaller groups. But, the hardcore would complain.

duckilama wrote:

... if you've never done a run with Deepsea, you're missing out. He's a great group leader.

Quacked For Truth! Deep runs the greatest group. All hail Deepsea, and the blue depths from which he emerged. Quack.

Swat wrote:

At what point do you ask yourself if you need such rigid structure and pre-determined roles in your escapist entertainment?

Well...exactly!

I put Nephalim and Neph into retirement because of one too many UBRS and ZF runs lead by goofballs. I'm almost tempted to dust them off to run some 5-10 man Goodjer expeditions. Those were some good times.

/Contemplates
/Gets misty

Plus me and the girlfriend left before the Ducki's started playing, so we don't know what we're missing out on

Swat wrote:

I put Nephalim and Neph into retirement because of one too many UBRS and ZF runs lead by goofballs. I'm almost tempted to dust them off to run some 5-10 man Goodjer expeditions. Those were some good times.

/Contemplates
/Gets misty

Plus me and the girlfriend left before the Ducki's started playing, so we don't know what we're missing out on ;)

Well, blow the dust off them keyboards, and hook you two up to the heroin WoW. ;)

gee... see, i've never had a WoW character over the 30's so I don't even understand this conversation. I have this thing about games where I HATE HATE spoilers, so I have deliberately avoided all information about late-game content, practices, systems, raids, etc...

But in the end, I decided to read this thread after joining the in-game guild last week and seeing some guild chat about it (can't really avoid that, no matter that I'm a 15th level priest on blackhand). And all I can think is:

Hey, if it ain't workin', move on. If it is, suck it up.

I've run a LOT of clans over the years. 'cause I'm just old, not because I've ever been any good at any game ever (well, I was pretty 'leet in worms armageddon). And they always fall apart because of something like this. If they do, they do. We're all grown ups, we can move on. Or we can institute change and keep it going. And it doesn't really matter.

I don't say this to belittle the experience. Those of you who've read my few articles here can probably surmise that I take online communities *extremely* seriously. But because I do, I think you need to apply real organizational behaviour methodologies to them. And number one is to recognize when things are right, and things are wrong.

I have, essentially, no idea what you are talking about in game. So all I'm really saying is this. Don't belittle it and say "f*ck it, it's just a game." It's not. It's a community you've susbscribed to. And as such, determine, for yourself, what that means, how important it is or isn't, and how it can or can't be changed to be healthier for you.

Motherhood and Apple Pie if it happened at a workplace and you went to HR. It shouldn't be any different.

Peace

*sniff* You like me - You REALLY like me *sniff*

Thanks for the kind words Ducki's.

It's time to take a Deep (hehe...Deep) breath and remember that we all still enjoy this.

My comments - while some may have been inflammatory - are sincere. This is still our forum and we all have a right to our opinions.

I just want to add here that I had a great time tonight grouping with you guys. It was truly much fun.

EDIT: Holy crap this turned into a long post, it took me about two hours to write. Get a cup of coffee if you want to read on...

Hey guys. I guess I need to speak up here. I also want to get a few things off my chest and I guess this is a good a place as any. I've been reading this thread since it started and usually I take a hands off approach as you all know, I'm a laid back guy. First off, Deva, if it's possible, can you change the thread title to start with WoW? Just so people that don't care about Warcraft don't see our dirty laundry on the front page.

Dusty and Zilt and whoever else from the SGA is reading this thread, I don't want to be harsh but I agree with what Deva said above. This is our board, yes it is public because this is not just a WoW board so we can't just make it private. Most of us don't bring drama to the SGA boards or go read other guild's websites and what we say on this board is guildmembers talking amongst guildmembers. If we wanted to say something to the SGA, we would post it on the SGA board. Honestly I was shocked the first time Dusty posted here, not that I don't like what he had to say but I just felt it violated a little bit of the trust of the SGA . Your family members might say something to each other they wouldn't say in public, it's the same thing here. If we wanted to say something we expected the SGA to read, we would post it on the SGA. Yeah yeah, it's the internet, nothing is secret, but I guess I just didn't expect "spying" on our boards to see what we were saying about the SGA internally. That is my opinion anyway, others might just shrug their shoulders and say it's the internet. If you want to keep reading, this is between guildmembers and you might get offended, but it's up to you.

For those of you that were around when the SGA started, you'll remember we joined it because many people were wanting to do end-game stuff and some were even leaving the guild for bigger guilds so they could. We joined as an option for people to go, no obligation within the guild that you were "expected" to go, it was an outlet for the people that wanted to go on these instances. All along the way people could attend or not attend, it was up to them. If you didn't attend I didn't post some list of people who didn't come to a raid in the last week or make a big fuss. If you don't want to raid with the SGA no big deal. Let's be clear, if the SGA did not happen, I have no doubt many of our regular 60s would not still be in the guild or playing the game. Maybe myself too.

In the past two months the SGA has grown a lot, when it started it was CoA, GWJ, DoS and GoL and GWJ was a huge part of it. Lately with the growth and numbers, it seems to almost be like SGA doesn't really need GWJ, if two GWJers or ten show up, the raids still go on. I think this is a good thing as it puts less burden on all of us. The bad thing it's kind of lost it's "everyone knows everyone" cozy feeling that it was like in the beginning. I see people all the time in MC I have no clue who they are and I raid every week. Since they started tracking points 110 people have earned points, that's a lot of people. It's gone from everyone being almost semi-guildmates to being a step above a PUG with some regular familiar faces. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way. Also before we joined the SGA I explained that GWJ is very casual and many of our members can only raid one or two nights a week. That was a perfect fit for the SGA at the time.

Also when we started it was supposed to be a casual raider's utopia for people who did not want to dedicate to a hard core raid guild. Don't want to feel pressured into raiding four nights a week? Come to the SGA! Don't want to deal with "earning" loot and point systems? Come to the SGA! Want to belong to a small tight-knit community not a 300 member mob guild? Come to the SGA! Want each guild to have a say in the way things happen? Come to the Small Guild Alliance where everyone is treated equally!

As you can see above, what the SGA has evolved into is almost the opposite of what it was when we started. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing. All along the way there have been good reasons for each and every change that has been made, but in the end what we have today bears no resemblance to what we started with except Dusty still leads a good raid. Regarding some of the changes, I can see both sides of them, I see why they were needed and I also see why some people took issue with them, especially in the way some of them have been presented (at the last minute with no warning). I have even disagreed with some of them, but it is alliance and alliances mean compromises. I know that when decisions are made they are made with the best interest of SGA in mind, so even when I am not involved in them (like the recent Leaf thing) I have no concerns about some nefarious intention. Remember when I said above that sometimes it seems like it doesn't matter if GWJ is in the alliance or not? It's times when decisions are made with no GWJ input that reinforce this idea. I know it's not intentional for GWJ to be left out of some decisions and I know I haven't been around the last two months as much as I was before that, but there is almost always as least an officer on that some of those things could be discussed with, but they are not as far as I know. In the past 4-6 weeks the SGA has definitely seemed to become almost like the US government, with CoA being the president and the rest of us guilds running around like senators. A lot of decisions are made without input from GWJ. I don't know if other guilds are being left out as well, and honestly it doesn't really matter.

Also I am NOT buying into this "if you raid with the SGA only 20% of the time, then you don't matter" mindset that seems to be pervading some decisions lately. As I said above when SGA started, it was 1 or 2 nights a week. The raid schedule was expanded, another suprise decision made without agreement, and now raids are four or even five nights a week. This was good reason because the population grew and people wanted to raid more, but it also put casual people in an awkward position. So if you're a once a week raider, before you were on 50-75% of raids now suddenly you're on 20% and you don't matter. That is bullsh*t in my opinion to be looked down upon because you continued to do what you have always done and because of a decision someone else made people are now attempting to make you feel like your opinions are not welcome. I will always look out for casual GWJ and if people are not ok with GWJers just raiding once a week, then I hold no animosity if those GWJers choose not put up with it.

From Zilt's front page post:

There has NEVER EVER been a decision made by...D and I alone. I have gotten with Turmeric, Bigcheese, Aphrodis almost always....why? cuz they're around. It's almost impossible to run a guild/be a leader and deal with issues when you don't have a representative on more than...20% of the raid time.....The hunter/priest quest pieces...were discussed with some hunters and priests. I'm not going out of my way to track people down that log on for 20% of the raids...to discuss a matter that involves people who raid 75% and above.

I can't help but feel this paragraph is directed at me and the fact that I have a 29% raid attendance since they started tracking. That's right, I raid 1 or 2 nights a week, and that's all I'm ever going to raid. That used to be good enough for the SGA, but I guess not anymore. It also smacks of "what have you done for me lately" since in my opinion GWJ is a big reason SGA has gotten to where it is today. I'm pretty sure some of the SGA leadership see me as a "troublemaker" since I always try to stick up for casual players and sometimes cause disruption when it comes to some decisions, that's another reason why maybe GWJ is not being included in some decisions is they just don't want to deal with what I have to say. Human nature is to take the path of least resistance and all that.

Within GWJ I know there are a lot of differing opinions of the SGA, as there will be with anything when a group of people are involved. That is fine. As a guild leader I only have two rules, have fun and be fair. If you're not having fun with the SGA, don't go. Simple as that. I know I will hold nothing against anyone who doesn't raid with the SGA for whatever reason, and I think most other GWJers are the same way. If you do want to raid, that's great too.

We are all adults, I'm sure you guys have seen I'm very hands-off. I let everyone make their own decisions and work out their own problems. I will give advice if people ask or get involved if there is really some exceptional situation. That's not how some other guilds work and that's ok too. If you don't like something the SGA decides or does, you have to decide for yourself if you want to continue raiding with the SGA. I do want to know when things happens and I will raise concerns to the SGA leadership as they need to be raised, but also realize many times once something has happened, it's happened and you can't change the past, we can only try to make sure the future is positive.

The last thing I'll say about the SGA is this. Dusty is a great leader for his guild and is great raid leader and player. I respect him and Zilt a lot and they have made the SGA what it is today. I can't imagine all the crap they have to deal with not just from us GWJers like me, but from six other guilds also and I think we all appreciate all the work they put into the SGA for really not a lot of benefit to themselves. I do not always agree with all their decisions but I do think they are made fairly with the best intentions. I am sorry to see Dusty step down as I think all of our experiences in this game and others have shown that players and leaders like him are hard to replace.

Ok, now here comes personal stuff.

WoW was my first MMOG, I had never really played online games before and definitely was never in an organized guild or clan. I really enjoyed the warcraft and starcraft games and every since I had heard of WoW thought that it would be the first game that would get me into a MMOG. I bought the collectors edition the day it was released, which was the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. By happy coincidence I also was off work the whole week of Thanksgiving so I dove right in and dealt with all the crazy MMOG launch day stuff and I have been playing every since.

I am the second guild leader GWJ has had, the first being Certis. After not logging in for a while, one day Certis decided he wasn't going to play anymore so he logged in, saw who was online and picked someone who was on and just made them the leader. I happened to be the one he picked and how I knew he turned it over to me is I saw the promotion show up in guildchat. It was not announced or discussed beforehand, I never asked or agreed to anything, it was thrust upon me. I don't think anyone is still playing who remembers that moment. That is fine, I understand why Certis promoted me, almost any guild leader is better than a guild leader who is never there.

Over the past year and a half I have managed the guild how I thought I would want a guild managed if I were a member. I have tried to keep a very low key no pressue casual fun atmosphere. I have tried to keep everything positive even when everything was falling down, even with two big exoduses of many of our regular players, even through multiple months of logging in and most nights seeing only two or three people on, even through horrible downtimes that had everyone discouraged and many people leaving the game one by one, even through when it seemed we were on our 30th Baron run for guild raid night because there was nothing better to do and we didn't have enough players for anything better since the ones we needed left for other guilds, even when someone who you had been very generous to and sent all kinds of bags for them and their three alts and gave them 50g in mount money never sent you so much as a scrap of runecloth and instead sold it on the AH, and then seeing it happen 40 times over again with other members while you are sitting there realizing if you had been selfish like others you could have had your epic mount five times over by now. I have tried to help everyone however I could, both with in-game items and money but also time and advice and never asked anything in return except for guildmembers to treat guildmembers how they would want to be treated. Thankfully overall we really have had very few problems in the guild and we have hung together. Many times, especially in the last six months, I have really thought about quiting the game or leaving the guild or stepping down. It's really bad when guild members are fighting with guild members or half the guild leaves or half the guild is mad about something that happened that really you have no control over but as the leader they look to you anyway. I have never burdened you guys with any of this and I think I will regreting doing it here, but there it is.

We are a guild, everyone has a voice, a say in what goes on. I don't lord leadership over people and command them to do things. I don't compel the officers to keep order when I'm not around. Hell order isn't kept when I am around! We're all friends that respect each other and in my eyes are all on equal terms. I know I haven't been around as much these last 2-3 months as much as I was the previous year. This will probably not change, now I play 2 maybe 3 nights a week. If as a guild you would prefer to have a leader that is around more than this that can be on for whatever situations arise, that will go to every SGA raid to deal with anything that happens, that has a much larger presence in the guild, I would totally understand that. If someone wants to post a thread for everyone to decide on a new guild leader, I would not be upset at all and would gladly turn over the reins. If you guys are ok with the way things have been going, I would also gladly stay the guild leader and we'll keep humming along. Do not feel like you can't say "Leap, you're not doing a good job, let's do X different or we'd rather Y be leader". I hope over the past year I've shown I'm open to anything and what the guild wills is what I try to do.

I don't know really what all that means above, but I thought it should be said and I'm glad I said it.

Leap I don't have any complaints about the way you run our guild. This is, and should always remain, a casual group of people. Changing that will only ostracize certain members and change what makes the guild special for us.

I think you've hit the nail on the head concerning the evolution of the SGA from GWJ's perspective. I've only been on 8 raids with the SGA but in that time they've evolved from ZG - to the beginning of MC - To ONY - To the end of MC and ultimately Ragnaros. Since I've begun I can feel the pace quickening. Do I want to participate, and perhaps in my own way "help out the cause"? Absolutely. But I think that at best my attendance in these raids will be in the "also appearing" category. I don't plan on raiding every opportunity because I've begun to feel like it dilutes my participation in GWJ to a certain extent. I would like to continue to participate in some of the SGA events, but I'm going to try to avoid any type of tunnel vision. Hopefully in time the drama will settle to a manageable degree and we can all get back to enjoying the game and the people we play with.

Thanks for your post Leap.

Leap,
Please do not ever think you are under appreciated. You and I may disagree about things some times, but I still respect you as guild leader. I would not want your job. As it is, I am uber casual as of late, I am still working two jobs, but going to class now once a week plus trying to at least spend some time with my wife. I'm lucky if I get 1 night a week in any more.

I missed the raids where all the issues came about so I can't really say much about them. I do respect Dusty, and Zilt and all the the hard work they put into the raids. I do want to say that these are our guild pages, and just like anyone else, we have the right to express our own opinions on our boards.

LeapingGnome wrote:

a book :D

Leap,

We all really love the way you run the guild. I wouldn't do nearly as good a job as you do. I've get power hungry I think and that wouldn't be good. I'd get tired of the bag making and the gold requests (you say the word and I'll send you some coin and RC anytime as I buy like 600 at a time). WOW is a GAME. I think some times people forget that and get sucked into it too much (me included). What has been good for me and a few others is taking a few days off (Oblivion will help with that trust me). I've really only logged into WOW lately for crafting while I check email and the like or at lunchtime and making mooncloth for the free gold.

I actually miss the days when we'd run the baron to the ground in 5 mans. I honestly had more fun there as it meant my actions actually mattered. Sure I won't get arcanist stuff from Baron but oh well. I've also been playing all my alts alot more than Bounce as the lvl 60 stuff just isn't as fun anymore. SGA Raids are fun bo doubt, but I usually don't have 4 hours to run and they start before my son is in bed anyway. I log on and if I have time I'll go. Most days I end up with 3 gold in repairs and nothing much to show for it. I know this going in. I don't Female Doggo (anymore) about DKP. I also checked into other guilds (who hasn't really) and they just don't fit my casual style.

So who wants to go try to win the 0.02% chance lotto on Baron's hose with me again? (I promise to try to remember I have counterspell!)

Hey guys, I missed a lot of gaming in the last couple of weeks due to some RL stuff I had to take care of, so I wasn't present for a lot of the stuff that has happened. I just wanted to get my two cents in without actually addressing the whole loot subject, which I feel has been beaten to death in this thread.

1. Leap's position as guild leader. Leap is a terrific leader. He runs the guild as it should be run, as we are a guild that caters to many different tastes. I would think that we have a more difficult guild to lead as there are so many differing opinions on time, what we do, and how we interact with different guilds. I don't know how someone can be a guild leader, as it would take a lot of time and dedication, and I can honestly say that if we had a different leader, there's a good chance a lot of us wouldn't be here anymore. The RL commitments can be tough, but he's on as much as he can be, and I think that a lot of us respect that. If Leap doesn't stick around the guild, I think that we might see a big migration of people elsewhere... and for some reason the GWJ seems synonomous with Leap.

2. Dusty, Zilt, and the SGA. Everyone from CoA and the SGA work hard to make raid night(s) a good time for everyone. There's a lot of stress that goes with leading raids, which is why a lot of guilds have separate leaders for each instance. I hope that everyone appreciates and the SGA knows how much fun and respect we have for the SGA and what they do for us. Loot or no loot, I have to give them mad ups for them providing an opportunity for us to have some good times every week.

3. Leap's mount. I have never met a more generous person in game as Leap has been. The first thing he says when he logs on is if anyone needs bags for their toons. When we pose a question about some mats to get something, Leap is the first to offer up his time, services, mats or advice. I was unaware that he doesn't have an epic mount yet, and although I know that he will be much against this, we need to rectifiy this. I find it's very hard to lead a guild when you're being outrun by the rest of your guildmates by 40%. I'm not trying to guilt anyone at all, but I for one have many a bags that say "Made by Leaping" and I fully appreciate all the help he has given me to during my time in the GWJ.

4. The GWJ. I'm really bummed out that people have had bad experiences with raiding as of late. It seems to have hit like a ton of bricks while I was AFK for RL. I hope you guys can still find time to enjoy the game, guild raiding or raiding with the SGA, whatever suits your tastes. I'm going to try to be on more often, so if anyone needs help, please don't hesitate to ask. I know Meld just got keyed for UBRS, (man, Meld at every UBRS raid scares me ) so that will be a big help for us to get more stuff going. I heard LBRS last night was a big hit as well, so grats on the next key and hope you guys keep the good times rolling.