Al Zarqawi Goes Down in a Blast of Justice

Gray, it's my understanding that's cultural. After Saddam was captured, pictures and video were used to convince Iraqis that he was actually caught. Pictures were also used to confirm the deaths of his sons. I'm guessing it has to do with the usual practice of burial the same day; that makes keeping the body around to prove the death to officials and the like a difficult thing (although I'm sure we still have his).

I can see the need for the Iraqi's to see and know that he is gone. I'm not going to loose any sleep over this.

JohnnyMoJo wrote:

It is rare when you get to relish in the death of another human being. This is one of those days.

I don't know if "relish" is the word I'd choose. Like I put in the thread on military guys regarding killing for money or national orders, there are times when there's no other way to deal with someone. This was likely one of those times. If I had to do it, I'd do it. But there are very few instances where I would "relish" the death of another human being. This isn't one of the very few examples I can think of.

If you're really saying something more along the line of "taking comfort in" the death of another, I'd say this qualifies as one of those times. It's a comfort to know that he won't be committing more atrocities. Others will rise up and replace him, but at least he's dealt with.

Are we so short on good news in Iraq

Yes.

Elysium wrote:
It is rare when you get to relish in the death of another human being. This is one of those days.

Even I agree with this. The man was an indiscriminate murderer, and died as a legitimate act of war. Let those who deserve the congratulations in tracking this man down and putting him to an explosive end get their credit.

Though, I do fear the apparently regenerative powers of the Al-Qaeda hydra.

We're at war?

Hey Ratboy, it was a 10 million dollar bomb to kill a 25 million dollar man.

You are correct that his insurgency is a small part of the problem. Their are also the Sunni insurgents. Arguably, the sunni insurgents can be reasoned with if their heirarchy convinces them to trust the new government. There was no dealing with Zarquawi. He is so blood thirsty even Osama Bin Laden had to ask him to chill out.

Lawyeron wrote:

Hey Ratboy, it was a 10 million dollar bomb to kill a 25 million dollar man.

You are correct that his insurgency is a small part of the problem. Their are also the Sunni insurgents. Arguably, the sunni insurgents can be reasoned with if their heirarchy convinces them to trust the new government. There was no dealing with Zarquawi. He is so blood thirsty even Osama Bin Laden had to ask him to chill out.

Fo' real. This does not end the insurgency, but I can't say i'm sorry he's dead. JMJ had it spot on.

Lawyeron wrote:

Hey Ratboy, it was a 10 million dollar bomb to kill a 25 million dollar man.

Or a 10 million dollar bomb to kill someone who was already dead. Don't you find it odd that Zarqawi looked fairly intact for someone who had two five hundred pound laser-guided bombs dropped on him? I submit that this bombing was staged to conceal something, possibly the identity of the al-Qaeda member who allegedly turned on him.

Edit: Or, "al-Qaeda in Iraq" had already killed Zarqawi and the bombing was staged to make it look like the US did it in an attempt to generate positive, pro-Bush Administration news from Iraq.

500 pound bombs don't cost $10M. They kill by blast and shrapnel. A person killed by blast overpressure is usually pretty much unmarked; Zarqawi showed some signs of having had debris fall on him, but he'd been cleaned up before the picture. The spokesman also said that they had far more gory pics - you notice this was just his head. It's entirely possible that much of his body was mutilated by debris or shrapnel, and they decided not to show it.

If he'd been taken out by the spooky guys, he'd certainly have extra ventilation holes in his head.

I submit that this bombing was staged to conceal something, possibly the identity of the al-Qaeda member who allegedly turned on him.

Ok Jack Bauer, maybe you are right. But he's still dead.

Anyway, the story is that he survived the bombing for a brief period of time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060609/...

It's a good thing the body is visually identifiable or there would be conspiracy theories that he wasn't killed.

Robear wrote:

If he'd been taken out by the spooky guys, he'd certainly have extra ventilation holes in his head.

Heh heh. I love those guys.

It's a good thing the body is visually identifiable or there would be conspiracy theories that he wasn't killed.

Not a worry this time. The major Al Quaeda and Jihadi sites all had official communiques from AQII revealing his martyrdom as early as 45 minutes after his death, according to people who monitor this stuff. These are people who welcome death in the cause and don't need to pretend someone didn't die to keep their mystique going.

After the beheading, William Wallace's body was torn to pieces. His head was placed on top on London Bridge, his arms and legs sent to the four corners of Britain as a warning. It did not have the effect that Longshanks planned.

Considering that Braveheart is the most popular movie in the Middle East and that is exactly how they view us, I suspect this is how this particular movie will end as well.

Heh heh. I love those guys.

Oh indeed. One thing that puzzled me was that the footage shown was from F-16's, rather than planes that turn left. I'm a bit worried if the skies over Iraq are not considered safe for the quiet pros. They could quite easily have eradicated the house as well as gotten any runners or vehicles moving away. Makes me think this was an MI op, rather than SOF.

Lawyeron wrote:

Anyway, the current story is that he survived the bombing for a brief period of time.

Fixed. Who knows what new version will be unveiled tomorrow.

"It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do."

"What's that?"

"Go through his clothes and look for loose change."

Here's some more explanation on why Zarquawi still looked pretty after the bombing:

"On Thursday, Rep. Heather Wilson (news, bio, voting record), R-N.M., was asked about U.S. military photos that showed a dead Zarqawi with relatively little apparent physical damage to his face. She said the two bombs, which flattened the safehouse, "didn't hit directly where he was so he was probably killed by debris or the blast effect."

Wilson, an Air Force veteran, is a member of the House Intelligence Committee"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060609/...

The President Elect Terrorist Chief of Al Qaeda in Iraq is a man called Abu Ayyub al-Masri. In the near future that name will become a household word.

According to he article he has been in Iraq longer than Zarqawi.

Lawyeron wrote:

She said the two bombs, which flattened the safehouse, "didn't hit directly where he was so he was probably killed by debris or the blast effect."

Obviously it didn't, since he was alive afterwards. Hell, the pilots could have dropped their iron on the wrong house and the blast debris wounded him just enough. Also, from your article:

Asked whether Zarqawi was shot after U.S. ground troops arrived at the scene of the airstrike, Caldwell said he could not give a definitive answer based on what he had read in the latest official U.S. military report on the event. "I'll go back and specifically ask that," he said. "But no, there was nothing in the report that said he had received any wounds from some kind of weapons system like that."

Caldwell said the U.S. military was still compiling details of the event, including the exact amount of time Zarqawi was alive after the attack. He said an initial analysis of Zarqawi's body had been done but he was not certain whether it constituted a full autopsy.

In an interview earlier Friday with Fox News Channel, Caldwell was more descriptive of Zarqawi's actions before he died.

"He was conscious initially, according to the U.S. forces that physically saw him," Caldwell told Fox. "He obviously had some kind of visual recognition of who they were because he attempted to roll off the stretcher, as I am told, and get away, realizing it was U.S. military."

Caldwell indicated that U.S. troops "went into the process to provide medical care to him" before Zarqawi expired.

More details to come, to be sure. Considering how the stories of Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman started off sounding one way but in reality turning out to be completely different from the initial report. As the reporter said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance: "This is the West. When legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Makes me think this was an MI op, rather than SOF.

Apparently I was way wrong here. I just listened to three reports. In one, he was killed in the blast. In the second, a different reporter was told that Iraqi troops were first on the scene, and "found" Zarqawi on a stretcher (!) and he died soon after. Many documents and storage devices were recovered from the wreckage.

A third report puts SOF guys first on scene, and states that they were able to "ransack" the safe house for documents before the Iraqis got there. In that one, presumably they found Zarqawi - which raises the question, why pretend the Iraqis got there first?

Don't forget that inital reports from 9/11 stated that the Pentagon was hit by a helicopter. I'd say that this is an error in the same vein.

Yeah, could well be.

Copingsaw wrote:

It bothers me that the death of this one man (however just it may have been) has received so much attention. Are we so short on good news in Iraq that we have to single this out as worth celebration. Am I the only one that felt a little dirty when Bush held a press conference this morning just to discuss the killing of one man? I just feel like we are lowering ourselves by making such a big deal of this.

There is positive stuff going on in Iraq- hearing from 2 people serving- but that's not news. Negative news seems to sell more, positive news does not- not just war, but here in my town, in the state, at the school, in the hospital- nobody friggin cares about good.

Copingsaw, when the leader of a major terrorist organization is killed it is cause celebre'. Because of this attack we launched 59 additional attacks based on the intelligence obtained.

So yes, it is a big deal.

Al Quaeda in Iraq is currently without a leader. Not for long, but while there is confusion and disarray we take this opportunity to smash our enemies!

Yes there are bombings that have already been in the planning stages. Additional attacks will still require coordination and money. It's hard to get money into the country when there is no one to pay.

In that one, presumably they found Zarqawi - which raises the question, why pretend the Iraqis got there first?

Because we are trying to instill some pride in the Iraqi forces as being able to provide security for the country.

There is positive stuff going on in Iraq- hearing from 2 people serving- but that's not news.

No, there's positive stuff going on in Iraq, heck, Pigpen is all over that. And indeed it gets reported all the time, even in the so-called "liberal" media. But as long as the big picture is negative, it's necessarily not going to counterbalance the troubles going on.

There is no massive undercurrent of stability and improvement going on in Iraq that is simply unreported by the media. However, even terrible failures have good things going on simultaneously. The implicit assumption that somehow if we just change the news report, the situation will be revealed to be better is wishful thinking, whether the topic is Iraq, or homocides in a troubled neighborhood.

Put another way, the media leads with the bleeders, but there's not an outlet that would not yell to the skies any half-way decent advance in Iraq, just to be the first to be associated with it. The popularity knife cuts both ways, as al-Zarqawi's death shows.

Mills of the Serengeti wrote:

There is positive stuff going on in Iraq- hearing from 2 people serving- but that's not news. Negative news seems to sell more, positive news does not- not just war, but here in my town, in the state, at the school, in the hospital- nobody friggin cares about good.

If everything went right in Iraq I believe that would sum up to be a neutral from the perspective of American interests.

I've read the last part of this article- TWICE- and it fails to make sense:

On Sunday, two U.S. military forensic specialists finished their autopsy on al-Zarqawi's remains, part of the investigation to reconstruct the last minutes of his life, the U.S. Command said.

"The autopsy is completed. However, we are not releasing results yet," Maj. William Willhoite said.

Caldwell, the spokesman for the U.S. military in Baghdad, said Saturday the decision to fly in forensic experts was made shortly after al-Zarqawi's death.

"I think if we don't do a full autopsy then that might irresponsible on our part," Caldwell said. "I think we sort of owe that just for this reason: How did he actually die?"

He said the U.S. government thought it was important enough "that we grabbed two people in the last 48 hours and told them pack up and move to Iraq."

I am glad they didn't tell me to move to Iraq. I understand it has some rough neighborhoods.

I can't take glory or joy in the death of another human...but AZQ was evil, and there is comfort in him being off the scene - more for the iraqi's though, since the large portion of his 'jihadists' were from out of Iraq, making it much easier for them to blow up other muslim Iraqi's. His death is a strong step forward, and as a face of the insurgents (valid or not), its positive impact in Iraq is a good thing.

I think sometime we lose focus - the focus is on helping the Iraqi's form a new gov't and have a better life. We often focus on ourselves, and that gets a ton of attention, but this will help give new credence to the gov't, AND, AZQ's tactics were starting to turn on him anyway. Its slow going, and still, I give the country no better than a 50/50 chance to pull out of this morasse, but again, slowly, the shieks and mullahs and local powers are moving from the insurgent support to where the money is...ie in construction and bringing power and utilities and jobs to their people...

Its not quick, but again, I can list 100 projects that have been successful across the board in Iraq, slowly helping the people get a infrastructure that has been neglected for 30 years or so -- to the tune of $2B+ just on what I know...but what we see is the COE and their failures jump on the cover of the Wall Street Journal. Progress is there, I promise you, and the death of AZQ is just such a thing...progress in helping to get Iraq to have a stable gov't and a stable moderate (at best) gov't. Again...its like roulette...bet on the black/red - 50/50 odds...so go with what you want...

Pigpen! Hot damn! Where have you been?! Missed ya!

Pigpen wrote:

I can't take glory or joy in the death of another human...but AZQ was evil, and there is comfort in him being off the scene - more for the iraqi's though, since the large portion of his 'jihadists' were from out of Iraq, making it much easier for them to blow up other muslim Iraqi's.

This I can agree with.

More than the death of one guy in Iraq I was more disgusted by my coworkers reaction to it. They found it a good excuse to recount tales of happening upon "those people," terrorists in hiding that shouldn't be allowed into the country. Their solution? A list of countries to nuke, half of them allies. Hurray for America.

Hey Farscry, my kittie icon friend! I'm around...but work is about 50x more hectic now than when in Canada, have kids a lot, wife, exwife, WoW AND work blocks gamerswithjobs.com

Still around...just not much on lately...which sucks. Miss the community a ton...thank goodness for WoW and vent and teamspeak

How you been?